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How can EVE retain new players

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#241 - 2014-08-07 20:54:12 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Licio Caleb wrote:
What lessons can CCP learn from Blizzard when we compare their respective games?



Not much, WoW is crap these days.

Maybe some lessons in what not to do. Actually what not to do is probably the best lessons from WoW.


Wow cashed in on its cow and is moving on with what new gamers are seeking, perhaps that is one lesson EVE could learn, basic economics.

Could CCP do with more revenue? Sure, who couldn't. Are they willing to sacrifice their core philosophy to make it happen? It certainly doesn't seem that way.

As I have said before, telling CCP that they could get more subs by changing Eve entirely, is like telling Ferrari that they could move more units if they stopped making the 458 and focused on cheap minivans instead. It's true, but that doesn't mean it's not a terrible ******* idea.


The problem seems to be that these people don't know they are asking for mini-vans. They think the company can keep the Ferrai quality while going for the minivan quality. They don't understand that in cases like this, it's either one or the other.

Lets just be glad these people spend their time playing space games not running industries vital to anyone's economy Cool
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2014-08-07 20:54:37 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

But !!

Ferrari has a very rich clientele that can keep it afloat no matter what happens, there will always be some economic powerhouse that can afford it's product and therefore justify its niche market strategy, CCP doesn't have that going for it.

You know, those guys who have 20+ alts, and aren't here bitching about the game?
Yeah...those are the rich guys who can keep it afloat.
How many of the instant gratification crowd do you think will stick around with many alt accounts, for several years?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#243 - 2014-08-07 20:55:12 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Grog Aftermath wrote:
Licio Caleb wrote:
What lessons can CCP learn from Blizzard when we compare their respective games?



Not much, WoW is crap these days.

Maybe some lessons in what not to do. Actually what not to do is probably the best lessons from WoW.


Wow cashed in on its cow and is moving on with what new gamers are seeking, perhaps that is one lesson EVE could learn, basic economics.

Could CCP do with more revenue? Sure, who couldn't. Are they willing to sacrifice their core philosophy to make it happen? It certainly doesn't seem that way.

As I have said before, telling CCP that they could get more subs by changing Eve entirely, is like telling Ferrari that they could move more units if they stopped making the 458 and focused on cheap minivans instead. It's true, but that doesn't mean it's not a terrible ******* idea.


But !!

Ferrari has a very rich clientele that can keep it afloat no matter what happens, there will always be some economic powerhouse that can afford it's product and therefore justify its niche market strategy, CCP does NOT have that going for it.


What. Suddenly people don't have 15 dollars anymore? Crap, the economy is worse than i thought.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2014-08-07 21:16:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
Tippia wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
You cannot blame everything on wow or the mischevious bad minmaxers, even if it is convenient, ironically there is nothing more wow-like like players blaming each other for the actions and/or failings of the devs (in general, i am not bashing them this time, just arguing that your position is too extreme).

Sure I can, because there is very little else to suggest that you have to have anything to try something. Cloaks and freighters and T2 ships do not suggest that you must have them to try stuff. It is not a logical conclusion to make. Trying something pretty much implicitly means starting small — not going for the top 20% and doing nothing before you get there.

So the idea comes from when they ask about these things you mention and then get griefed by people who suggest that they must grind towards them, or if they come into the game with the thoroughly incorrect “must have purples” philosophy of the grinding game genre.


You do have to either cough up 80m or train covops to try to explore with a covops cloak and reduce the chance to be chased trough 20 systems (but it is a interesting afternoon the first few times...) :)

There are only that much tries required until you realize what could make your life more easy or your experience more fun, admittedly eve is in a much better state than it was years ago, when even bs were your "specialized ships", but we are still not there.

You have decided what to see, but just be careful bout those pesky immigrants taking your job :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#245 - 2014-08-07 21:20:58 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
You do have to either cough up 80m or train covops to try to explore with a covops cloak and reduce the chance to be chased trough 20 systems (but it is a interesting afternoon the first few times...) :)
…but you don't need a covops cloak to try anything. That's just some nonsense they get tricked into believing.
Oxylan
Blood Fanatics
#246 - 2014-08-07 21:21:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxylan
Maybe stuf like mini games inside game? Or true planetary interaction? More freedom? Less danger? more chill mode that make people relaxed insead of tired boring, paranoid of loses own ships?

Realy no idea... EvE it self is like is, in general complicated, with meny hardcore long therm aspects that most of gamers hate, EvE is like is for small group of people. i think CCP realise this and they deal with this fact espetialy they want EvE like this.

If it bleed we can kill it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#247 - 2014-08-07 21:47:17 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

Wow (blizzard) cashed in on its cow and is moving on with what new gamers are seeking, perhaps that is one lesson EVE could learn, basic economics.

Given Blizzard's past successes making games i have no doubt they will put out a new game, beat EVE to a pulp in financial gains....again!

Wash, rinse, repeat (till CCP is a long forgotten memory and Blizzard holds untold riches, even compared to what it has already).


WoW lost just shy of a million subs in the last six weeks.

Starcraft 2 has been functionally dead for months, they may never release the second expac.

Hearthstone is holding on with it's fingertips, as their willingness to actually support the game past launch is pretty slim.

And Heroes of the Storm just got turned into pay to win with the new Rune system.

So yeah, please tell me more about how they have their finger on "what new gamers are seeking", because as far as I can tell? New gamers are seeking crap. And they're welcome to it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2014-08-07 21:51:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
You do have to either cough up 80m or train covops to try to explore with a covops cloak and reduce the chance to be chased trough 20 systems (but it is a interesting afternoon the first few times...) :)
…but you don't need a covops cloak to try anything. That's just some nonsense they get tricked into believing.


I think there is a echo here or we have reached the "nananana, i dont hear you" stage.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#249 - 2014-08-07 22:22:44 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Tippia wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Granted it may not be as good as it could be, but the Advanced Military Career Agent missions do indeed give New Players a basic introduction to various aspects of PvP / Fleet mechanics.
What aspects are those, if you don't mind?
I was wondering the same thing. I ran a new alt through the tutorials about 6 months ago. You get introduced to webs and scrams, that's about it.

With reference to FW, you mean the graduation certificate that I've got for every character actually has a use?

I've always thought of you as an intelligent person, definitely didn't expect you to jump on the Tippia Troll Wagon out of spite.

Anyway, maybe you didn't notice or pay much attention due to being an experienced player. For a brand new player in this game, the Advanced Military Career Agent series is a basic introduction into the various aspects of PvP / Fleet mechanics.

Advanced Military Career Agent missions :

1 - The Swap
Basic encounter / combat mission - Gives Propulsion Jamming Skillbook

2 - Angel of Mercy
Suicide encounter mission - Introduce player to ship loss and inform player about Pod Death.

3 - Your Undivided Attention
Tackle encounter mission - Warp Disrupt a "Fleeing Pirate".

4 - A Friend in Need
Logistics encounter mission - Remote Repair a "Damaged Vessel".

5 - The Stand
Suicide encounter mission - Familiarize player with ship loss and info about Pod Death.

6 - Don't Look Back
Tanking encounter mission - Introduce player to sustained damage (50 DPS every 6 seconds until mission completion)

7 - Weapon of Choice
Basic encounter mission - Familiarize player with attributes of 'Race' specific weapons.

8 - The Pacifist
Fleet Op encounter mission - Introduce player to following FC orders

9 - Glue
Tackle encounter mission - Webify a "Pirate Leader".

10 - The Exam
Regular encounter / combat mission - Player awarded race specific Destroyer.


By the way, I never said it was a good introduction, just a basic introduction. Gotta admit it's definitely much better than what was available 6 years ago.


DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#250 - 2014-08-07 22:28:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Anyway, maybe you didn't notice or pay much attention due to being an experienced player. For a brand new player in this game, the Advanced Military Career Agent series is a basic introduction into the various aspects of PvP / Fleet mechanics.

Advanced Military Career Agent missions :

[…]

By the way, I never said it was a good introduction, just a basic introduction.
That doesn't particularly sound like an introduction to PvP but to the bare basics of ship to ship combat or just basic mission-running.

Yes, it's better than the “warp to beacon, press F1” of old, but PvP? No. Not even close.

By the way… “Introduce player to sustained damage (50 DPS every 6 seconds until mission completion)” …no. It's only 8⅓ DPS. You should know what “DPS” stands for by now. Blink

Barton Breau wrote:
I think there is a echo here or we have reached the "nananana, i dont hear you" stage.

So try listening? There is nothing in the mechanics that any way suggests this very counter-intuitive version of trying things out or starting small. None of the things you listed do. The whole “must have X before trying Y” idea is imposed from the outside.

Yes, there are things you have to unlock with a bit of training. Does this mean you can't try what they offer before that? No, and at no point is that suggested… except by the griefers in question (and the subpar games that admittedly may have warped the new players' assumptions but as mentioned, that's a separate problem).
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#251 - 2014-08-07 22:44:04 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
You do have to either cough up 80m or train covops to try to explore with a covops cloak and reduce the chance to be chased trough 20 systems (but it is a interesting afternoon the first few times...) :)
…but you don't need a covops cloak to try anything. That's just some nonsense they get tricked into believing.


I think there is a echo here or we have reached the "nananana, i dont hear you" stage.

That's to be expected. Best to just ignore the he/she.

Can't have a convo or change the viewpoint of someone who thinks they wrote the book on Eve.


DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#252 - 2014-08-07 22:58:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
That's to be expected. Best to just ignore the he/she.

Can't have a convo or change the viewpoint of someone who thinks they wrote the book on Eve.
Well, I keep trying, since the book you've written is so full of errors. I know that you have had very poor results trying to use unfounded fiction to argue against me, but that doesn't mean it's better to ignore me — it means you should get better arguments. It also means that you should probably lay off your incessant abuse and hostility because that one will never get you anywhere.

As long as you talk about me rather than with me, you will always faceplant in the most pathetic manner possible and be proven wrong.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#253 - 2014-08-07 23:04:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Tippia wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Granted it may not be as good as it could be, but the Advanced Military Career Agent missions do indeed give New Players a basic introduction to various aspects of PvP / Fleet mechanics.
What aspects are those, if you don't mind?
I was wondering the same thing. I ran a new alt through the tutorials about 6 months ago. You get introduced to webs and scrams, that's about it.

With reference to FW, you mean the graduation certificate that I've got for every character actually has a use?

I've always thought of you as an intelligent person, definitely didn't expect you to jump on the Tippia Troll Wagon out of spite.
Just because I don't agree with you doesn't make me any less or more intelligent, and I'm not jumping on any particular bandwagon. I just disagree with you.

Quote:
Anyway, maybe you didn't notice or pay much attention due to being an experienced player. For a brand new player in this game, the Advanced Military Career Agent series is a basic introduction into the various aspects of PvP / Fleet mechanics.

Advanced Military Career Agent missions :

1 - The Swap
Basic encounter / combat mission - Gives Propulsion Jamming Skillbook

2 - Angel of Mercy
Suicide encounter mission - Introduce player to ship loss and inform player about Pod Death.

3 - Your Undivided Attention
Tackle encounter mission - Warp Disrupt a "Fleeing Pirate".

4 - A Friend in Need
Logistics encounter mission - Remote Repair a "Damaged Vessel".

5 - The Stand
Suicide encounter mission - Familiarize player with ship loss and info about Pod Death.

6 - Don't Look Back
Tanking encounter mission - Introduce player to sustained damage (50 DPS every 6 seconds until mission completion)

7 - Weapon of Choice
Basic encounter mission - Familiarize player with attributes of 'Race' specific weapons.

8 - The Pacifist
Fleet Op encounter mission - Introduce player to following FC orders

9 - Glue
Tackle encounter mission - Webify a "Pirate Leader".

10 - The Exam
Regular encounter / combat mission - Player awarded race specific Destroyer.


By the way, I never said it was a good introduction, just a basic introduction. Gotta admit it's definitely much better than what was available 6 years ago.


DMC


1: Yes you get a prop mod skill book for it, but a prop mod is a general usage item, it's used for everything, by everyone.
2: Yes you lose a ship, one that is given to you for that specific purpose, nowhere in the mission description does it mention pod death, it simply tells you to leave the area once your frig explodes*. Your ship exploding is not specific to PvP, it happens regularly in PvE too.
3: This one introduces warp disruption, I pointed this out in the post you replied to. Warp disruption is PvP specific outside of this tutorial.
4: Introduces logistics, I'll let you have that one as logistics is mainly used for PvP, although it has its uses in PvE too. My bad Oops
5: Once again you're given a ship for the specific purpose of losing it, once again there is no mention of pod death in the mission description
6: Sustained damage is more PvE than PvP. In PvP you're more likely to die to spikes in DPS than a sustained steady barrage. Which is why PvE ships are generally crap for PvP.
7: This one is pretty contradictionary, by the time you get to it you've generally upgraded your guns to at least meta 0 and learnt about ammo, so it gives you a civilian gun and makes you use it.... Nothing PvP oriented in this btw.
8: Concord boss you about, it's basically a normal PvE mission with the agent in the same deadspace area rather than at a station. It's not fleet work by any means.
9: It introduces webs, something I also stated in my post. Webs are like prop mods, they get used by everyone for various purposs that aren't restricted to PvP
10. You take on an NPC with a web and scram, no damage spikes, no logi, no unexpected surprises, pretty much a cookie cutter PvE mission.

*I actually quite like this mission as a concept, the explosively rigged frigate is something that shouldn't be restricted to this one instance.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#254 - 2014-08-07 23:07:32 UTC
A rumor mongering post has been removed.
Forum rule 31. Rumor mongering is prohibited.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#255 - 2014-08-07 23:11:51 UTC
Discussion of another game, in comparison to EVE. Topic locked.
Forum rule 19. All posts must be related to EVE Online.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL