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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Mass-Based Spawn Distance After WH Jumps

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Author
Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
Hole Control
#521 - 2014-08-07 12:54:20 UTC
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
Alicia Stormbringer wrote:
Why are all the changes made to promote pvp there's plenty of places to find that if you want in eve without forcing it on everyone


I know this is now a typical reply to such a question, but: Because it is an MMO Game.

I like those other changes a lot coming to WH comunity. Nothing against having more WH Connections or being forced to pay even more attention again to DS, etc., but this mass-jumprange idea is just increasing work and risk without providing anything positive to be honest on the long run. Waiting on wormholes for somebody to jump through without a reasonable chance to escape is boring like hell! It's like Gatecamping, just even more boring.

Sorry CCP, but I seldomly commenting patches / devblogs as I am usually one of this "adapt or die" peoples and so far I could adapt most of the times, but this change in it's current form will be just bad I am quite sure and I have explained before why I think so.


Watching DS and 2 holes is demanding if you multibox. With no local, even more fun. Whilst on these great changes, why not give nullsec 60 second delay on newcomer to system? :)
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#522 - 2014-08-07 13:00:17 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:
Verse Askold wrote:
this forces smaller groups to become bigger, but with this change no one will want to join WH groups anymore(good old risk vs. reward calc.) and as a result smaller groups will either dissapear or move in together with other smaller groups to form bigger groups or or join bigger ones which will in the end lead to quite some bigger entities but no fights since they live in 30 out of 2498 j-space systems and will never connect to each other except someone ragerolls...oh wait...

imho it will just make w-space less populated than it already is and i cant think that this is the intention you have for your change do you?




I just dont get these posts... We regularly PVE in PVP fit fleets... WH space will be a PVPers dream... Lots of ISK and PVP as only PVPers and supported carebears will live there!


You're also in a 100 man corp, no one has ever heard of....

Official Shit Talking Captain, Bastard of Hard Knocks Inc.

Shaklu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#523 - 2014-08-07 13:06:17 UTC
-1:
This is anti-PVE, and PVE is already struggling seriously in EVE

In the Dev blog you state this will make it harder to "rage roll" and that it should only make it harder for PVP corps. PVP corps don't care at all that it takes slightly more time, and they usually have huge fleets or at least pvp fitted ships ready to rock and roll. This will affect PVE corps and small corps only.

Larger corps won't care at all, they have big fleets to support. Small corps will get bumped and lose ships while trying to secure their Home system.

Terrible for smaller corps or PVE
Awesome for PVP

BAD
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#524 - 2014-08-07 13:07:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Now people call for things to be driven by a random number generator, make things less predictable!

Because people actually run from all these predictable and controled environments into the game worlds. Into futuristic universe, full of thrilling discoveries and adventures they can engage in while throwing out all the risk considerations and fears to lost their future/health/life; explore deep space hiding numerous secrets. Well, at least advertisments promise us so. What actually are there is sophisticated "farm to be able to brawl" concepts with casual tools like dscan, local chat and probes in its current implementation, removing all the flavor and killing atmosphere of space adventure.

So yes, I would like to see more authenthity, much, much more randomness and more variety (and NOT variety coming out of different kinds of pew pew) - to make at least WH space, initially designed as place where you should delve into the unknown, to serve its purpose, and not become another ratting safe haven.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#525 - 2014-08-07 13:14:55 UTC
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Chev Alsar wrote:

This means these smaller groups, who would normally log on scout and close holes before PVE'ing will now log on, scout the hole and log off. There is no maybe when it comes to whether they will lose their rolling ships. They will lose them and the hole will remain open.

It's a risk/profit game, what's wrong with it? If they can't tolerate risk/cover expenses, someone more capable/tolerant will take their place. WHs still produce insane amount of profits, they won't stay unattended. And you needn't to live there actually, it was designed as a place for expeditions in the first place. If you can't adapt to living there, then revert to simply visiting occasionally.

You seem to have no idea how many empty C5 and C6 wormholes are out there with 30+ combat anomalies in them. It's like a graveyard out there. If there's so much money to be had, why are these boundless riches left unattended?


Perhaps no one wants to venture into C5/C6 territory for fear of being ragerolled out of existence...
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#526 - 2014-08-07 13:17:18 UTC
as a nullsec toon I can echo the goon+pets sentiment (shocking I know) in saying this is a great change for nullsec er I mean wormholes, right...

as an ex-wh player that might actually one day want to return to wh, this change will completely kill any meaningful wh life.

basically this change if added to the patch will change the focus of the patch from beeing a wh patch to making it clear who this patch is really for: nullsec.

the frig holes already point distressingly how much this is catering to cfc harpy fleets and other nullsec fleets (bagged 6bill in kills in a single night in my stiletto in an inty fleet)

while I would like to say that you shouldn't listen to null power blocks lile cfc on these changes, that would be a fools wish.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#527 - 2014-08-07 13:18:15 UTC
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far. Special thanks to those who are providing lots of text about the reasoning behind your feelings, as those are the most useful posts.

We're continuing to pour over all the feedback and considering multiple options for adjustments to the plan based on what we're hearing. We probably won't have something new to announce for a couple days but we want you to know that we are listening and working hard behind the scenes in the meantime.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Strictly Unprofessional
#528 - 2014-08-07 13:24:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Andiedeath
Negated

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public

Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
Hole Control
#529 - 2014-08-07 13:24:08 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far. Special thanks to those who are providing lots of text about the reasoning behind your feelings, as those are the most useful posts.

We're continuing to pour over all the feedback and considering multiple options for adjustments to the plan based on what we're hearing. We probably won't have something new to announce for a couple days but we want you to know that we are listening and working hard behind the scenes in the meantime.


no wonder with ppl bashin you so hard. Also post above your explains pretty much the feeling of my corp.
Arestris
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#530 - 2014-08-07 13:27:24 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Arestris wrote:
All those crying and why? Mainly coz, if this change comes, you can't no longer life your carebear WH-Live.
Acutally rolling is a nearly riskless and fast way to avoid any situation that could maybe dangerous for you.

Hole to ratting / mining system? Kill a ratter or miner and and while still loling over the 250mio mackinaw kill, roll the hole before they can formup anything. Anyone has found the exit? No prop, roll the hole and be long gone before they have the smallest chance to bring something up, no risk at all for you.

There maybe some wh-corps, who roll to find PvP, but mainly they roll to find some "victims" and then roll again to got away before a serious situation can develop.

Sry, but it's more than overdue to change something on this carebear mechanism we actually have there. Nothing wrong with a bit more risk for u guys.

Interesting.....
You seem to have a rather strange and unusual attitude to wormholes, apart from the fact that your comments have a stark disconnect with reality, I am really curious as to where these rather quaint ideas come from?

Now I wonder if this is part of the current meta to portray wormholes as a risk free environment, full of lazy risk averse players that would benefit from a good dose of null sec mechanics, but It seems a little too disjointed for that.

So with that in mind, I suggest you investigate and read a little about wormholes, it may clear up your misconceptions.


I never said it's riskfree at all, but at least the aspect of riskfree rolling away before a serious conflict can develope is completly true!

And this is part of nothing but my own humble opinion.



Fluffi Flaffi wrote:

And this post comes from a 0.0 carebear who only kills custom Offices or whelping other ships completely outnumbered!?!
0/10


So, a simple profile/killboard-flame is all u can answer? I'm totally disappointed.
I could tell you, how wrong you are ... I could, but I don't do, coz it doesn't matter on this topic at all, what I do and I owe you no accountable.
Wingzero Mileghere
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#531 - 2014-08-07 13:30:52 UTC
This change can be both good and bad but I see mostly negative effects from it
for hunters this will cause more kills from hole rollers (who doesn't enjoy orca kills)
this will also cause massive chains to be scouted out because of the higher difficulty of hole rolling and because of the higher number of K162 connections so in that turn it can be good as well for both PvP and PvE

but for those looking for content by rolling the hole either for farming reasons or looking for kills because the closest active hole is 10 jumps down the chain or the connections go to care bear corps that log at the first sign of PvP it will be a bad change especially for the smaller class wormhole corps really anything less than a C5 this will be a bad thing for farming people will still do it but it will just make it harder on them to do so also with higher risk and that will affect 2 things negatively the first which is isk generation for those corps and higher losses on top of the lower isk flow the only positive thing I can see coming from this is higher prices on sleeper salvage because of the higher risk and the lower amount coming from W space in general

so yes for PvP this will be a good thing and it will be harder on the care bears to stay safe as well but it will make farming harder which makes it harder to be able to PvP in the first place

So the mass causing bigger ships to be sent further makes sense but I think the distances need re worked a bit for this reason or prices of blue loot needs to go up to make up for not being able to farm as much in the lower class holes
Orange Aideron
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#532 - 2014-08-07 13:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Orange Aideron
+1

Shake the Ant Farm!

I think we'll adapt. Here's why:

WH's are hard. That's why we conquered them. They challenged us, so we made them work for us.

Do these changes have an effect on WH life? of course they do. Will there be a mass exodus from WHs because of the changes? I doubt it. Just as before, we will figure out new ways to roll, and will probably figure out new ways to counter roll.

In fact the only thing I see most effected is solo expo and small cap expo fleets. And that has been an op ISK making venture in the game for a long time (we'd all admit that).

I say bring it on the changes. We will adapt.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#533 - 2014-08-07 13:40:53 UTC
What if...

The practice of rage rolling is done generally by large groups to generate content at the players discretion.
CCP has stated that their desire is to make the practice of hole control more dangerous.
Additional changes to wormhole mechanics are increasing wormhole connectivity including nearly unclosable holes

I wondered not so long ago about why wormhole entities only ever occupy a single hole.

Certainly logistics of managing disconnected entities play a part but as a group seeking PvP as many larger C5/C6 groups do, wouldn't occupying more holes equate to more content? In the current game, I see why this is undesirable. Too many small, empty chains and no one in their right mind would spread your capital ships needed to roll holes out across multiple systems. But...

If wormhole connectivity is increasing due to increased random spawns and the frigate sized holes, will wormhole chains now be deep enough to allow for a large wormhole corporation to spread beyond a single system effectively? Will you occupy multiple holes simply to enjoy a series of deep wormhole chains? Will instead of rage rolling from one system, could you instead fan out from multiple as small gangs naturally formed around similar playtimes, timezones, or players while maintaining a home "carebear" system for PvE that can be controlled when a fleet is formed using modified, riskier, hole closing?

A wormhole environment where the use of capitals for PvP isn't the norm due to the risk of random spawn distances from holes but instead smaller fleets of smaller ships?
Hasn't this been something that CCP has been working towards in other areas of the game?
Smaller ships means more accessibility to pilots
More accessibility means more people
More people means a healthier wormhole space...

Something perhaps to consider

Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#534 - 2014-08-07 13:42:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuri Kinnes
Arestris wrote:
All those crying and why? Mainly coz, if this change comes, you can't no longer life your carebear WH-Live.
Acutally rolling is a nearly riskless and fast way to avoid any situation that could maybe dangerous for you.

Hole to ratting / mining system? Kill a ratter or miner and and while still loling over the 250mio mackinaw kill, roll the hole before they can formup anything. Anyone has found the exit? No prop, roll the hole and be long gone before they have the smallest chance to bring something up, no risk at all for you.

There maybe some wh-corps, who roll to find PvP, but mainly they roll to find some "victims" and then roll again to got away before a serious situation can develop.

Sry, but it's more than overdue to change something on this carebear mechanism we actually have there. Nothing wrong with a bit more risk for u guys.


I would really be interested in where you developed this information from? What vast store of experience/knowledge you have to make these blanket statements. Because, you're pretty much as wrong as someone can be.

Because, while there are pve corps who will roll a hole shut as soon as look at you, there are (in my experience) more who like to thump heads (FAP > NAP!).


"Little more risk for you guys"? You do realize that living in wormholes there is *NOTHING* safe. There are *NO* unlimited volume, indestructible stations. EVERY ITEM IS AT RISK, unlike *any* other area of Eve.


So I think you're bloviating about something you know next to nothing about, or you have very limited experience with very limited (null, even?) outlooks.

ON TOPIC: CCP: No to wormhole stabilizers and no to Mass influenced WH Jump effects.
Wormholes aren't gates, and should *NEVER* EVER be treated as such.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.

Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
Hole Control
#535 - 2014-08-07 13:49:07 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
What if...

The practice of rage rolling is done generally by large groups to generate content at the players discretion.
CCP has stated that their desire is to make the practice of hole control more dangerous.
Additional changes to wormhole mechanics are increasing wormhole connectivity including nearly unclosable holes

I wondered not so long ago about why wormhole entities only ever occupy a single hole.

Certainly logistics of managing disconnected entities play a part but as a group seeking PvP as many larger C5/C6 groups do, wouldn't occupying more holes equate to more content? In the current game, I see why this is undesirable. Too many small, empty chains and no one in their right mind would spread your capital ships needed to roll holes out across multiple systems. But...

If wormhole connectivity is increasing due to increased random spawns and the frigate sized holes, will wormhole chains now be deep enough to allow for a large wormhole corporation to spread beyond a single system effectively? Will you occupy multiple holes simply to enjoy a series of deep wormhole chains? Will instead of rage rolling from one system, could you instead fan out from multiple as small gangs naturally formed around similar playtimes, timezones, or players while maintaining a home "carebear" system for PvE that can be controlled when a fleet is formed using modified, riskier, hole closing?

A wormhole environment where the use of capitals for PvP isn't the norm due to the risk of random spawn distances from holes but instead smaller fleets of smaller ships?
Hasn't this been something that CCP has been working towards in other areas of the game?
Smaller ships means more accessibility to pilots
More accessibility means more people
More people means a healthier wormhole space...

Something perhaps to consider



more accesibility means more people. Right. Passing? Or staying? For I cannot see how making it harder to roll and with more statics, how can that add, apart from mroe danger to small groups.

Keep in mind plz, its not nullsec. Ive seen 8 char wormhole group. Basically these changed deprive them of their playing space.
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#536 - 2014-08-07 13:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Faren Shalni
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far. Special thanks to those who are providing lots of text about the reasoning behind your feelings, as those are the most useful posts.

We're continuing to pour over all the feedback and considering multiple options for adjustments to the plan based on what we're hearing. We probably won't have something new to announce for a couple days but we want you to know that we are listening and working hard behind the scenes in the meantime.


So based on this your doing this change no matter what?

Edit: forum ate half of it

So Much Space

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#537 - 2014-08-07 13:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far. Special thanks to those who are providing lots of text about the reasoning behind your feelings, as those are the most useful posts.

We're continuing to pour over all the feedback and considering multiple options for adjustments to the plan based on what we're hearing. We probably won't have something new to announce for a couple days but we want you to know that we are listening and working hard behind the scenes in the meantime.



Thank you fozzie, with all the proposals there is much to read and digest, and naturally it is quite natural to take time to come to clear conclusions and adjustments to make them the best you can, respectfully though, on this one proposal, many believe that it is so misconceived that it is not worth considering in any form, and no adjustments will make a good proposal from it.
You may of course completely rework it in such a way that we are all completely surprised.

There are wormhole people on this thread who are widely respected and you have a phenomenal opportunity to gain insight into the mechanics and operation, that would be rare to find elsewhere. I hope you take the best advantage of their experience and insight.

Good luck with this, but as you will read, the concept of making hole rolling work is quite refined currently, we are working with tools that are less than ideal, and that making things more troublesome and random will only reduce vitality and activity. Hard, difficult to discover mechanics, that are worked for and eventually mastered are the hallmarks of wormhole space, introducing luck and random survival/risk features are not what has allowed people to thrive in conditions that are so challenging, by all means give us a difficult new mechanic, that we need to puzzle over, and seek its secrets, just please do not give us a " you have 30%chance of all your capitals dying" feature especially when it is connected to such a core daily requirement.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#538 - 2014-08-07 13:54:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Witchway
Orange Aideron wrote:
In fact the only thing I see most effected is solo expo and small cap expo fleets. And that has been an op ISK making venture in the game for a long time (we'd all admit that).


yes, it would suck for those making boatloads of money. how about those times you drop capitals out a nullsec/lowsec to engage a larger fleet. now those caps are a significant distance from the return in a sector of space where not just one, but several capitals can be brought in as a counter at whatever range the opponents would like. if you take capitals into k-space after this change, you might as well just consider them lost because the chances of you not getting a cyno lit with a carrier 20km off the hole is about the same as Hard Knocks not pointing a carrier within ten jumps from any of our exits.

And that's honestly the biggest issue I have with this change, it doesn't just affect the bears. it doesn't just affect the pvp rage rollers, it affects everyone and in almost all situations. all of this brought about with less than 2 weeks of public testing? to that regard how does one test this in the first place, all our homes are removed every time they copy the servers, how can they possibly expect a solid test of this new feature when we can't even test it proper.

Official Shit Talking Captain, Bastard of Hard Knocks Inc.

Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#539 - 2014-08-07 14:00:31 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
The Hammer is coming wormhollers, flee while you can to SOV with the other bears. Bear

Says the professional forum alt in an NPC corp.


Flee while you can, the rejuvenating fires of war are coming to your systems and will drive out the timid and weak and replace them with the motivated and strong.

The ISK Fountain Era is over, for you at least. Scream all you want, but in space, no one can hear you.

Bob hears us, and that's all that matters. Every time you jerks have stuck your fingers in it, you've pulled back stumps.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.

Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#540 - 2014-08-07 14:01:14 UTC
Pavel Sohaj wrote:

more accesibility means more people. Right. Passing? Or staying? For I cannot see how making it harder to roll and with more statics, how can that add, apart from mroe danger to small groups.

Keep in mind plz, its not nullsec. Ive seen 8 char wormhole group. Basically these changed deprive them of their playing space.


I know. I run a relatively small wormhole group when it comes to active players at any one time. I don't think it is depriving us of our space (other than maybe our C4 static being undesirable). Anyone of our size living in a C5/C6 where these changes have the most impact really shouldn't be there, at least that is how it appears from this side. They probably should be in a different class of wormhole.

I was speaking specifically to ragerolling but yes, there is impact to these changes for groups of all sizes. Will it kill us as a small group needing to roll a hole to PvE. No. It will make me think twice about rolling it myself with an alt in an Orca and a BS looking for solo PvE as I sometimes do. That's fine. I will simply adjust my game or learn to take on the extra risk and adapt accordingly.

And again, the fear of encounting a large WH group causing me to log off isn't any different before or after these changes. I fear a large group because I don't have the numbers. If I don't have the numbers, I almost never try to roll the hole anyways. Why risk the ships? We simply are used to being pushed out of our "game" from time to time. The increased connectivity will just mean perhaps I do more PvP than I do now which is minimal due to the shallow chains. We're not a ragerolling PvP group so we take what we can get. Seems to me that we may be getting more often which isn't a bad situation.