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EVE(L) Stabb. Remove from game? Maybe?

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Kasife Vynneve
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2014-08-06 03:23:16 UTC
Its case of what you want vs what they want.

You want a fight and they want easy lp. The change may be better in the lp end of things, a percentage loss when capturing a Plex with core stabs equipped.
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2014-08-06 09:11:38 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Except stabs are within the will of CCP. They are not code badly handled like bumping ships out of a POS shield. If they were not working as intended (just like the POS bowling), they would of made a statement and told players they will get reprimanded for using them like FW farmers do it.

Cloaking is too. But you can't cloack while farming FW complexes anymore. This alone shows the intention of CCP to introduce real competition to this part of gameplay. Penalizing/banning stab usage from FW is just another step to this goal.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#63 - 2014-08-06 09:17:59 UTC
2 years later people are still upset about missing out on that 500,000 ISK frigate KM.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Grobalobobob Bob
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2014-08-06 09:31:56 UTC
When exploring i max out on warp stabs in my low slots.. why? so i can warp out, cloak in a safe spot, and wait out the threat.

When i am exploring, i am playing my game. If someone wants to interfere with me they need to have atleast 3 scramblers to break even with my warp stability. Yes it's more risky with less tank, but i will take the RISK, versus sure doom if i dont fit my stabs and someone wants to grief MY game of exploring and looting valuable stuffs.

Asking to ruin my fun by removing stabs is like me ruining your fun by wanting to remove guns.

:(
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#65 - 2014-08-06 10:41:14 UTC
Jaime Gomes wrote:
Sara Tosa wrote:
Jaime Gomes wrote:
Sara Tosa wrote:
everything need a counter, points get stabs, stabs get more points.
just use more points.




Sorry thats not even................

not even what? you think that you and your friends cant outpoint a stabbed ship?
how many stabs can a frigate mount? just bring +1 frigates.
or just that everything should be an easy killmail for you?
If i am with friends there is no point in fitting multiple points in my ship.

Clearly there is, as you seem to be unable to succesfuly tackle that lone T1 frigate with your friends...


I don't see why so many gankers have such a problem. I have been on both sides of this situation and I have no issues. To fit multiple stabs you sacrifice a lot of the capabilities of a ship, particularly T1 frigates. And that is the trade off:

Why should anyone be forced to sit and die at the hands of gank squads if they don't want to? Why shouldn't they have the option of sacrificing huge amounts of their fighting potential in order to have much better chances of getting away from enemies? There should always be choices.

And there are several ways around the issue anyway:

- Fit more points/scrams
- Focused HIC disruptors
- Alpha damage

It's not even as if the stabb'd ship will be capable of putting up a fight anyway.

Friends
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-08-06 10:50:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

To fit multiple stabs you sacrifice a lot of the capabilities of a ship, particularly T1 frigates. And that is the trade off:

No you don't, in a given context. To run defense plexes typical farmer doesn't need any capabilities aside from warp drive, propulsion and stabs, because he doesn't intend to compete or fight in the first place.
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

Why should anyone be forced to sit and die at the hands of gank squads if they don't want to?

Because - ideally - no one allowed effort- and risk-free isks income of such scale in Eve. Because by removing those cloacking "tactics" from FW plexes CCP stated their position clearly - they want fight and competition happen here. And CCP is who decide how game will work, all the rest is mostly advertisment fluff.

The goal is to remove such exploiters from FW, or make them at least pay with significant amount of effort as everyone else do. When you blown up frequently, or even podded (if bubles will be added), you have to spend some time to get in ship and get back to buisness. If fitted stabs will force to sit in complex for longer, like it was proposed, using them will seriously hit your isk/hour - most vital farmers' counter. All this will create a real choices, between risk and profit, you are simply bluffing about it devoiding players of choices as there aren't currently - farmers just fit stabs, without exeption, to maximize their isk/hour.

Removing cloack was first step, penalizing stabs should be second, and others should follow.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#67 - 2014-08-06 11:19:31 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
No you don't, in a given context. To run defense plexes typical farmer doesn't need any capabilities aside from warp drive, propulsion and stabs, because he doesn't intend to compete or fight in the first place.

They do, because fitting stabs leaves the ship more open to being alpha'd and all but removes any chance of being able to fight back if they do get caught.

Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Because - ideally - no one allowed effort- and risk-free isks income of such scale in Eve. Because by removing those cloacking "tactics" from FW plexes CCP stated their position clearly - they want fight and competition happen here. And CCP is who decide how game will work, all the rest is mostly advertisment fluff.

The goal is to remove such exploiters from FW, or make them at least pay with significant amount of effort as everyone else do. When you blown up frequently, or even podded (if bubles will be added), you have to spend some time to get in ship and get back to buisness. If fitted stabs will force to sit in complex for longer, like it was proposed, using them will seriously hit your isk/hour - most vital farmers' counter. All this will create a real choices, between risk and profit, you are simply bluffing about it devoiding players of choices as there aren't currently - farmers just fit stabs, without exeption, to maximize their isk/hour.

Removing cloack was first step, penalizing stabs should be second, and others should follow.

I was unaware that using a module for the job it is designed to do is now classed as an exploit.

Is using alpha damage to beat reps an exploit?
Is using a scram to shut down a MWD an exploit?
Is speed tanking an exploit?
Is using a neut to shut down active tanks an exploit?

There is a huge difference between cloaked ships sitting in plexes and stabb'd ships sitting in said plexes. There is no real way to deal with cloaks in that situation, but I have already listed 3 ways to beat stabb's.

It is up to the agressive pilot to find a way around their victims defenses, not up to CCP to hand easy kills to gankers on a plate.

Friends
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2014-08-06 11:37:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

They do, because fitting stabs leaves the ship more open to being alpha'd and all but removes any chance of being able to fight back if they do get caught.

They don't as mentioned possibilities (like fleets large anough to right away alfa frigate) are rarely encountered in lowsecs, and - I can repeat this as much as you wish - no farmer ever consider to fight back, he is here to farm with no risks included.
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

I was unaware that using a module for the job it is designed to do is now classed as an exploit.

What goonswarm did in their scam of LPs multiplication didn't use anything aside from legitimate tools, and still it was classified as exploit and possibility for doing it again was removed from game world. You are juggling words again trying to conceal the fact that sometimes crafty usage of legitimate tools produce effects harmfull to the game world and therefore considere as exploit and get attended by CCP eventually.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#69 - 2014-08-06 11:53:36 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
They don't as mentioned possibilities (like fleets large anough to right away alfa frigate) are rarely encountered in lowsecs, and - I can repeat this as much as you wish - no farmer ever consider to fight back, he is here to farm with no risks included.

Fleets? A single T1 cruiser can do the job! There are plenty of them out in lowsec. These things are not heavily tanked, because most of them can't be heavily tanked because they have so many stabb's. Hence why they are sacrificing something to get something they want more.

Ray Kyonhe wrote:
What goonswarm did in their scam of LPs multiplication didn't use anything aside from legitimate tools, and still it was classified as exploit and possibility for doing it again was removed from game world. You are juggling words again trying to conceal the fact that sometimes crafty usage of legitimate tools produce effects harmfull to the game world and therefore considere as exploit and get attended by CCP eventually.

I am refering to modules that have been around for years doing exactly what they have always done. You are referencing a loophole within what was a new/updated mechanic that became a scandal shortly after it's inception. And I am the one juggling words?

If CCP saw stabbs in plexes as an exploit then I am sure they would have sorted it out at some point in the last 18 months that gankers who want risk free kills have been complaining about it. As far as I am aware they haven't even stated that they see it as an issue.

Therefore; it has multiple counters, it is not an exploit. No more so than the ability to bump ships to prevent them from aligning. (That's anoher way to stop stabb'd ships warping away, so thats 4 now!)

This is EVE online, not "Turkey-Shoot" online.

Friends
Khiluale Zotakibe
Protection of Underground Resources
#70 - 2014-08-06 12:34:03 UTC
Jaime Gomes wrote:
Hello everyone.

I was a FW pilot for about 6 months and i returned to Black Rise after i joined Waffles. Since i left, many welcome changes were added: the range between the beacon and the button was decreased and inability to use cloaking devices in proximity to it (although debatable since it was fun to trap people and....... you can imagine) are such examples.

However i believe the most important change was not implemented or even addressed: stabbed ships.

It is known that when you dscan a plex the likelihood of that small t1 frigate being stabbed is pretty high and most cases it is confirmed when you point the thing and slips trough your fingers.

It is indeed frustrating but the worst are the hours wasted(sometimes per day) trying to find a 1v1 or even a 1v2 and in the end you get 0. Since i got back i also noticed a rise in small gang fleets of 4 and 5 pilots where all of them are fitted with stabbs (including destroyers).

However lets see this from a "carebears" perspective:

Many players, during the week, do missions/mine and/or trade in HS but at weekends they go alone or with friends to fw areas were they know they have the possibility of a fight. They pay for a couple ships, modules, ammo and they are set to go in search for epic loot. They are prepared to go cgc, lose sec status and even get some kill rights against them.

Conclusion: stabbed ships do not produce any content to the game and in the end the only thing they cause is people to log off or simply stay away from activities that otherwise should be very fun to do alone or with other players.

Either way bla bla bla bla TL/DR cry me a river:


Possible solutions:

1. Remove stabbs from the game - although even I am not to kind of the idea since its fundamental to many pilots living in losec to restock their armory and markets. That would limit how you would do it and incite to a certain degree more gate camping.

2. Do not allow a pilot to go into a plex with stabbs fitted and/or with the said module in the cargohold.

Thanks for the attention. Feel free to leave a comment.


All I read here is "I fail at hunting people" tears. Boohoo!
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#71 - 2014-08-06 13:00:49 UTC
Stabs are a problem in fw (mainly when de-plexing), but removing them from the game is one very bad solution.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#72 - 2014-08-06 13:03:11 UTC
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
Its case of what you want vs what they want.

You want a fight and they want easy lp. The change may be better in the lp end of things, a percentage loss when capturing a Plex with core stabs equipped.




You are assuming that people who use stabs, because it is the best way to run plexes under these mechanics, want the mechanics to stay that way.

Having alts using stabs and running from combat is simply the way you win the occupancy war so I do it as well. But that doesn't mean I don't think the mechanics are bad. People using stabs and running from combat are not bad people they are just playing the game the way ccp designed it.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#73 - 2014-08-06 13:10:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:

They do, because fitting stabs leaves the ship more open to being alpha'd and all but removes any chance of being able to fight back if they do get caught.

They don't as mentioned possibilities (like fleets large anough to right away alfa frigate) are rarely encountered in lowsecs, and - I can repeat this as much as you wish - no farmer ever consider to fight back, he is here to farm with no risks included..


Yeah frigates are not worried about being alphaed because the frigates are generally empty and they are in a plex.

The plex rabbits are not necessarily there to farm isk/lp. They might just be there to win the occupancy war. The most efficient way to win the occupancy war (gain the most systems for your faction) is to rabbit plex. There were rabbit plexers long before you gained lp for plexing. This has been the case since fw was introduced. CCP is aware of the problem and has said they will take steps to change this (1.plex timer rollbacks when you leave a plex and 2.better intel tools to know where plexes are being run so they can be defended through pvp) It's just a matter of time when they get to it. But in the meantime the fw occupancy war is pretty much broken.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Shaklu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2014-08-06 14:53:16 UTC
This idea shouldn't even be considered. It is moronic.

If people want to fight, then they will fight. If people want to run, they will run. Warp core stabs aren't the issue here at all, you are trying to PVP in a PVE area. The plexes have a place in PVP warfare, but the actual grinding of sites is primarily a PVE mechanic.

Everything has a counter, that's how you balance ships and roles. If you want to kill a bunch of non-combatants who are just there for money, then give yourselves 3 scrams. Then when you find someone who actually wants to fight, you will get murdered because you are wasting mids.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-08-06 15:03:37 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Except stabs are within the will of CCP. They are not code badly handled like bumping ships out of a POS shield. If they were not working as intended (just like the POS bowling), they would of made a statement and told players they will get reprimanded for using them like FW farmers do it.

Cloaking is too. But you can't cloack while farming FW complexes anymore. This alone shows the intention of CCP to introduce real competition to this part of gameplay. Penalizing/banning stab usage from FW is just another step to this goal.


They changed the way cloaking worked in plexes but not stabs. One could assume they only had a problem with cloak. Stabs usage already has drawback on the ship. If you want to kill it, bring more points or alpha it with friends. What is it gonna be next? Disable ECM so people can't break your point and warp away? Disable prop mod because it allow people to gain range and kite you?
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#76 - 2014-08-06 15:35:12 UTC
Plex'ing is like every other aspect of eve. You fit your ship for the intended role that you will be using it for. I don't go into HQ incursions with a bs fit with a point cause that's not the role I will be using the ship for. Same with Plex, if my goal is to run them to completion then I fit things that help me do that, stabs are the only fitting thing I need nothing else matters, Tank is useless as are gun's when d-plexing. get rid of stabs and all you get are unfit ships running the plex's.


If you get a point on someone and they warp away cause they are stabbed you where not going to get them anyway. They are only staying to get pointed so that they can have your tears. The amount of crying in local from neuts and enemy FW makes my day every time.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#77 - 2014-08-06 16:24:09 UTC
Shaklu wrote:
This idea shouldn't even be considered. It is moronic.

If people want to fight, then they will fight. If people want to run, they will run. Warp core stabs aren't the issue here at all, you are trying to PVP in a PVE area. The plexes have a place in PVP warfare, but the actual grinding of sites is primarily a PVE mechanic.

Everything has a counter, that's how you balance ships and roles. If you want to kill a bunch of non-combatants who are just there for money, then give yourselves 3 scrams. Then when you find someone who actually wants to fight, you will get murdered because you are wasting mids.


If people want to run they should pay attention to their surroundings and not make dinner in the other room relying on a mod to save their ass.

Semi-afk gameplay with same rewards as not-afk one is bad, but may be you disagree on this one.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#78 - 2014-08-06 17:49:59 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Shaklu wrote:
This idea shouldn't even be considered. It is moronic.

If people want to fight, then they will fight. If people want to run, they will run. Warp core stabs aren't the issue here at all, you are trying to PVP in a PVE area. The plexes have a place in PVP warfare, but the actual grinding of sites is primarily a PVE mechanic.

Everything has a counter, that's how you balance ships and roles. If you want to kill a bunch of non-combatants who are just there for money, then give yourselves 3 scrams. Then when you find someone who actually wants to fight, you will get murdered because you are wasting mids.


If people want to run they should pay attention to their surroundings and not make dinner in the other room relying on a mod to save their ass.

Semi-afk gameplay with same rewards as not-afk one is bad, but may be you disagree on this one.


If the guy is AFK, he can't warp. The people you fail to catch are obviously at the keyboard to warp out. This is exactly like AFK cloaker.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#79 - 2014-08-06 20:28:55 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Shaklu wrote:
This idea shouldn't even be considered. It is moronic.

If people want to fight, then they will fight. If people want to run, they will run. Warp core stabs aren't the issue here at all, you are trying to PVP in a PVE area. The plexes have a place in PVP warfare, but the actual grinding of sites is primarily a PVE mechanic.

Everything has a counter, that's how you balance ships and roles. If you want to kill a bunch of non-combatants who are just there for money, then give yourselves 3 scrams. Then when you find someone who actually wants to fight, you will get murdered because you are wasting mids.


If people want to run they should pay attention to their surroundings and not make dinner in the other room relying on a mod to save their ass.

Semi-afk gameplay with same rewards as not-afk one is bad, but may be you disagree on this one.



please contract this toon the stabs that let me warp out when an enemy comes into my plex and I'm not at my keyboard. Please note I'm not super rich but just set the price and I'll see what I can do.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#80 - 2014-08-06 23:12:30 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

If the guy is AFK, he can't warp. The people you fail to catch are obviously at the keyboard to warp out.

Semi-afk mate. Right now you can warp-in your 500k, x4 stab ship to de-plex, turn up sound to max and go bake a cake or something, come back when you hear annoying beeping to warp away.

Frostys Virpio wrote:
This is exactly like AFK cloaker.

And sorry, but that is not the same, afk cloaker don't get the cookie just for being there and a loud notification when someone enters system. Semi-afk fw de-plexing is more akin to semi-afk lvl4s domi farming than to null afk cloaker dilemma.