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Mining Corps With PvE Branches. Has Anyone Seen This Work?
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ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#21 - 2014-08-06 04:40:12 UTC
Shederov Blood wrote:
ACY GTMI wrote:
I guess maybe I did work with the wrong PvErs.

Maybe they were working with the wrong miners.



Miners mine. That's what they do. A bad miner is a miner who doesn't mine.
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#22 - 2014-08-06 04:43:57 UTC
Athryn Bellee wrote:
Any group of miners with decently fit (not max yield) ships should be able to take out any highsec belt rats no problem.


Aren't you forgetting a little thing called skills? Most of my miners joined the alliance flying Ventures. Most are in better ships now, but it takes time. Flying a Null fitted Hulk takes quite a while.

Also, if you have someone competent guarding you, you go for yield. You can afford to.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2014-08-06 04:46:24 UTC
Ocih wrote:


tl;dr - escort is fail in EVE.


Yep, basically being in fleet together does not mean you can automatically attack the enemy of your fleet mate.

If he has been can flipped or the aggressor is a war target of the fleet mate but not the escort there is nothing the escort can do without attracting the wrath of Concord down on their heads.
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#24 - 2014-08-06 04:50:36 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
ACY GTMI wrote:
I'm only mentioning experiences I have had, not heard about. I guess maybe I did work with the wrong PvErs

If you have found PvE players that want to stop shooting at rats and instead go looking for war targets then I think you've found the right type of players, not the wrong ones.

I'm sure highsec would be more interesting for many people if they stopped shooting rats at wartime and went and waged war. They seem like fun players.

I would also think that would make your miners safer in many respects, as long as you move your mining operations away from the many systems being visited by your opponents.


That was exactly the point that came up in the other thread. A poster suggested that there was not enough strife between mining corps. They wanted to see mining corps go to war over resources. Well, many miners are not trained for PvE. Many don't want to be. That suggests using people who do enjoy PvE. But I think a PvEr in a mining corp isn't doing any good for himself, or the corp.

Have you ever tried to move a 26 member mining corp in the 24 hours between war dec and start of hostilities? We have a way around that, but most corps don't.
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#25 - 2014-08-06 04:51:34 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Aren't most HiSec corps "mission and mining"?


And?
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#26 - 2014-08-06 04:53:54 UTC
Sir SmashAlot wrote:
While the PVE experience is a common path for many new players and budding EVE CEOs, it unfortunately will not build a corporation or culture that will last more than a year or so. There are always exceptions but they are the minority.

The challenge with many of these corporations is they lack vision, unfortunately after about a year the group whose focus is PVE will have peaked or will be on their way to an "Awful Loss of the Day" ALOD.

Strong CEOs will prevent groups from peaking and will ensure that there is always another carrot to chase. Sadly, for PVE, the content does not allow such a narrative to be developed.

Mixed corporations of miners, PVE, and PVP are very difficult to lead as its membership lacks a cohesive view of how the game can be played. Unless the group is held together through an external means, corporations and alliances like these rarely last. Specialization is very powerful in EVE and mixed groups tend to be less competitive.

The vision for a corporation does not need to be complicated; however, it needs to be clearly communicated in a sentence or two. A clear vision does not allow for multiple interpretations.

If done right, a solid corporation will attract people who share that goal and build game play to realize it. If a corporation can last for several years, its membership will develop strong friendships that regardless of what the group does, it will adapt as a group.


Very well said. Do you mind if I add that to Alliance Bulletins, with credit to you?
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#27 - 2014-08-06 04:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: ACY GTMI
S'Way wrote:
You shouldn't need anyone to kill NPC's when you mine, a properly fitted barge should be able to tank even 0.0 spawns long enough for your drones to kill them.

If you're expecting someone to just sit there and watch / protect you while you mine (which probably means they're giving up doing something that would make then more isk than you get from mining anyway), then the only PVE'ers you'll find willing to do that are very new / inexperienced players.


See above, about skills.
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#28 - 2014-08-06 04:59:00 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
ACY GTMI wrote:
A few corps I have been with have tried this. It seems like every time, at the start of the operation, the PvErs show up on time, and do appropriate things.

But, within a few minutes, they start losing interest. Killing rats isn't enough for them. The next thing you know they start leaving for the market to buy things that will make their ships shinier than they already are. Seems like a rare occurrence if any come back before the op is over.

The only alternative I see is if the corp stays at war, constantly, to keep the PvErs busy. The problem is that the PvErs then spend all their time looking for WTs and forget the miners who are in more danger than they would be without the war.

Maybe I just worked with the wrong PvErs.


If I've learned anything in EVE, it's that you don't hire anyone for anything. You build a community, and inspire its loyalty, and someone in that community will WANT to provide security for your miners, free of charge.


Yes, but right now my characters are the only ones who have the skills to fly the Orca, Obelisk, and whatever two warships I choose.

I've been around for 5 years. My miners haven't.

But that is a very good point.
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#29 - 2014-08-06 05:03:01 UTC  |  Edited by: ACY GTMI
Ocih wrote:
The short answer is no, it doesn't work.

The more detailed is, it doesn't need to. A belt will never see more than 5 npc's at a time. It's the same for any place that has Ore. There is no demand for dedicated combat vessels at the mining site. Even in Null mining Ops, the military PvP ships guarding the miners are on gates, allowing the mining fleet time to get to a POS because first primary is dead even in a bad fleet and if you have the mining fleet on grid of battle, they will be first primary.

tl;dr - escort is fail in EVE. - exception here is the dual web frigate forcing large ships to warp faster and they have nothing to do with mining.

Possible exception, WH mining. In these cases it's trade out with a single alt on screen acting as an Aggro magnet while mining ships warp away to be replaced by combat. Escort still doesn't truly work.


Irrelevant. We mine in Hi Sec. A few of the miners still can't protect them selves. That's why the Orca carries Armor repper drones. The real problem is keeping NO and CODE off of us. I usually keep an EM Scorpion and a Raven or Vigilant on guard.
Garandras
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-08-06 05:05:35 UTC
ACY GTMI wrote:
Athryn Bellee wrote:
Any group of miners with decently fit (not max yield) ships should be able to take out any highsec belt rats no problem.


Aren't you forgetting a little thing called skills? Most of my miners joined the alliance flying Ventures. Most are in better ships now, but it takes time. Flying a Null fitted Hulk takes quite a while.



Protip no one flies Hulks in Null (not for long anyway)
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#31 - 2014-08-06 05:08:46 UTC
Garandras wrote:
ACY GTMI wrote:
Athryn Bellee wrote:
Any group of miners with decently fit (not max yield) ships should be able to take out any highsec belt rats no problem.


Aren't you forgetting a little thing called skills? Most of my miners joined the alliance flying Ventures. Most are in better ships now, but it takes time. Flying a Null fitted Hulk takes quite a while.



Protip no one flies Hulks in Null (not for long anyway)


Protip to you, yes, I have, and I do, and I haven't lost one yet. :)
Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-08-06 05:11:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tao Dolcino
ACY GTMI wrote:
The point you seem to forget is that if you agree to join a corp, to perform a specific function, and you don't do it, who is pathetic?


You.
You are not able to handle the poor npcs who appear in a hi-sec belt, and for that you ask non-miners to sit at a belt for hours.
You don't deserve them. People play for fun and/or profit, and what you provide is not fun at all and brings no money.
Congratulations, you've just invented an activity which is even more boring than mining. Worse : it's useless, as any miner can very easily defend themselves from belt rats in high sec.
And asking PvEers to protect you from CODE and other PvPers is also dumb. PvEers want to do some PvE, else they are called PvPers Roll.
The general feeling from your posts is that you have absolutely no clue of what you are doing, and that you are too proud to realize it, despite all the answers going in the same direction, which should raise a doubt in your mind. Narrow minded people never doubt.
I hope every players with a minimum of intelligence will leave a corp leaded by such an unpleasant person.
Have fun.
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#33 - 2014-08-06 05:19:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ACY GTMI
Tao Dolcino wrote:
ACY GTMI wrote:
The point you seem to forget is that if you agree to join a corp, to perform a specific function, and you don't do it, who is pathetic?


You.
You are not able to handle the poor npcs who appear in a hi-sec belt, and for that you ask non-miners to sit at a belt for hours.
You don't deserve them. People play for fun and/or profit, and what you provide is not fun at all and brings no money.
Congratulations, you've just invented an activity which is even more boring than mining. Worse : it's useless, as any miner can very easily defend themselves from belt rats in high sec.
And asking PvEers to protect you from CODE and other PvPers is also dumb. PvEers want to do some PvE, else they are called PvPers Roll.
The general feeling from your posts is that you have absolutely no clue of what you are doing, and that you are too proud to realize it, despite all the answers going in the same direction, which should raise a doubt in your mind. Narrow minded people never doubt.
Have fun.


Did I say they were there just to kill rats? I don't think so. For new players the Orca can handle any rats that show up. They are supposed to protect the miners from NO and CODE, and corps that war dec us.

I don't think you read the thread very carefully. :)

I almost missed it. CODE is PvP? Where you been? :)
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-08-06 05:20:39 UTC
ACY GTMI wrote:
Garandras wrote:
ACY GTMI wrote:
Athryn Bellee wrote:
Any group of miners with decently fit (not max yield) ships should be able to take out any highsec belt rats no problem.


Aren't you forgetting a little thing called skills? Most of my miners joined the alliance flying Ventures. Most are in better ships now, but it takes time. Flying a Null fitted Hulk takes quite a while.



Protip no one flies Hulks in Null (not for long anyway)


Protip to you, yes, I have, and I do, and I haven't lost one yet. :)


Yet. Because of this forum thread many people such as myself have watchlisted you and run locator agents already. Prepare your anus.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#35 - 2014-08-06 05:25:08 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:

Yet. Because of this forum thread many people such as myself have watchlisted you and run locator agents already. Prepare your anus.


Gee. Good luck. This is a posting alt. :)
Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-08-06 05:41:19 UTC
To illutrate what kind of personality we are dealing with, i will paste here your parallel post from New Citizens Q&A :

"I get irritated when people don't know this.

1. If you mine every rock in a belt, you will get 1st day rocks in that belt after DT. There will be exactly the same number of rocks, same number of each type, and in exactly the same places, but they will be as small as they can ever get.

2. Small rocks are usually not worth mining at all if you use Crystals. T2 crystal takes damage every time the Strip Miner is turned on. Small rocks mean the on/off cycle is very short. Lot's of damage mining small rocks.

3. A corollary that took me three years to prove to my satisfaction, is that, If you mine every rock of one ore type, say all of the Veldspar, the next day all of the Veldspar will be 1st day. If no one mines out the other types they will re-spawn normally, either the same size, or larger.

The point I'm trying to make is that you may get some personal satisfaction out of clearing a belt, but if you want to mine that belt again, after DT, it will be a waste of your time, unless you are flying a Venture.

So, if you find a belt that only has a few rocks in it, and none of them are concentrates, I suggest that you look for another belt.

There are 3 rock sizes, 1st day (smallest), 2nd day (medium sized), and 3rd day (full sized).

I am sure that there will be people who dispute these findings, for one reason or another, or just don't care.

All I can tell you is that I have been a successful miner for 5 years, largely because I lived by these rules. The information has proven valuable to my alliance, but I was actually paid to do most of the research."

What can we see there ?
You are "irritated at people", you "live by some rules", and you seem so proud that you expect everyone to follow you blindly because "you know".
I don't even understand why you post on the forums : you don't ask any question, you state your rules.
I hope your corpies will open their eyes and send you to a black hole, the only thing in the universe which seems stronger than your ego.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-08-06 05:42:05 UTC
ACY GTMI wrote:
Lugia3 wrote:

Yet. Because of this forum thread many people such as myself have watchlisted you and run locator agents already. Prepare your anus.


Gee. Good luck. This is a posting alt. :)


You kindly forgot that you were in an alliance. And unless you have 26 forum alts...

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
S'Way
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-08-06 05:45:39 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:

You kindly forgot that you were in an alliance. And unless you have 26 forum alts...

They probably also forgot that even if it's just a shell alliance at least one of the corps CEO's / Founders will probably have some form of finished contracts history searchable to find a link to a character in the actual main corp.
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#39 - 2014-08-06 05:51:17 UTC
Let's get back on track. Enough threats and side issues.

Let me try to simplify the question.

Suppose you want mining to include more strife.

Suppose you want mining corps to actually go to war, or ganking, over the belts they want to mine.

That is the part that suggests having PvErs in mining corps.

Is there anyone at all who thinks that would improve the game?

Mining corporations need PvErs for normal operations like fish need bicycles.

PvErs don't understand miners, and don't like them.


That's about as simply as I can put it.

There are alternatives. Corps that specialize in war deccing. I don't even trust them as far as I trust my self, and that isn't very far.
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
#40 - 2014-08-06 05:53:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ACY GTMI
Tao Dolcino wrote:
To illutrate what kind of personality we are dealing with, i will paste here your parallel post from New Citizens Q&A :

"I get irritated when people don't know this.

1. If you mine every rock in a belt, you will get 1st day rocks in that belt after DT. There will be exactly the same number of rocks, same number of each type, and in exactly the same places, but they will be as small as they can ever get.

2. Small rocks are usually not worth mining at all if you use Crystals. T2 crystal takes damage every time the Strip Miner is turned on. Small rocks mean the on/off cycle is very short. Lot's of damage mining small rocks.

3. A corollary that took me three years to prove to my satisfaction, is that, If you mine every rock of one ore type, say all of the Veldspar, the next day all of the Veldspar will be 1st day. If no one mines out the other types they will re-spawn normally, either the same size, or larger.

The point I'm trying to make is that you may get some personal satisfaction out of clearing a belt, but if you want to mine that belt again, after DT, it will be a waste of your time, unless you are flying a Venture.

So, if you find a belt that only has a few rocks in it, and none of them are concentrates, I suggest that you look for another belt.

There are 3 rock sizes, 1st day (smallest), 2nd day (medium sized), and 3rd day (full sized).

I am sure that there will be people who dispute these findings, for one reason or another, or just don't care.

All I can tell you is that I have been a successful miner for 5 years, largely because I lived by these rules. The information has proven valuable to my alliance, but I was actually paid to do most of the research."

What can we see there ?
You are "irritated at people", you "live by some rules", and you seem so proud that you expect everyone to follow you blindly because "you know".
I don't even understand why you post on the forums : you don't ask any question, you state your rules.
I hope your corpies will open their eyes and send you to a black hole, the only thing in the universe which seems stronger than your ego.


^^ Better ignored than responded to. But I was trying to pass on some information. You are not. If that upsets you, it is not my problem. :)