These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Easy ECM Rebalance - Chance of Failure when "Perma-jamming"
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#1 - 2011-12-08 18:46:53 UTC


Just like ECM's always have a SMALL CHANCE of success no matter how low the strength of the jammer vs the ecm strength, a quick and easy balance would be that they ALWAYS have a Small Chance of failure when the jammer has 100% chance of success by being above the RADAR strength.



Just have a 5% chance of failure built into a Jammer when it is over the ECM Strength of the target - this is a small but easy balance that makes a SMALL chance for a target to be able to not get perma-jammed and be somewhat functional on the field.

Where I am.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-12-08 18:53:57 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:


Just like ECM's always have a SMALL CHANCE of success no matter how low the strength of the jammer vs the ecm strength, a quick and easy balance would be that they ALWAYS have a Small Chance of failure when the jammer has 100% chance of success by being above the RADAR strength.



Just have a 5% chance of failure built into a Jammer when it is over the ECM Strength of the target - this is a small but easy balance that makes a SMALL chance for a target to be able to not get perma-jammed and be somewhat functional on the field.



i dont think that it is a problem.... perma jam is a valid tactic as the Dampening hiting 100% is...

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#3 - 2011-12-08 19:12:55 UTC

Dampeners actually have a falloff and chance to miss when you're too far. They also don't totally stop you from being able to operate like ECM does.


ECM permajam is 100% **** you - a Dampener still lets you lock close targets and so on - or can be countered with a Sensor Booster or Remote Sensor Boosters. Permajam is unstoppable.


Where I am.
CobaltSixty
Fawkes' Loyal Professionals
#4 - 2011-12-08 20:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: CobaltSixty
For the last time, Caldari get one EWAR. ONE! Not two like everyone else, just one. The tradeoff it is very powerful and can fully prevent you from locking anyone when successful. Drones still work, F.O.F. still work, smartbombs still work, your tank still works.

Your argument about dampening having the chance to miss and so ECM needs to be nerfed is stupid. ECM also has optimal and falloff and the math works the same way. If you exceed the optimal distance from the target, your effective strength starts going down. If it falls enough, you can no longer permajam the target. The target could also fit ECCM which counters ECM - just like sensor boosters counter sensor damps - and will make any target over a frigate unable to be permajammed. You do realize that th MOST strength you can get on your own (without an information warfare linking booster) out of a Recon is under 17 points, overheated, right? Most call it a day around 14.5, which won't even permajam a T1 battlecruiser.

What is the problem here?
Major Kim
Fawkes' Loyal Professionals
#5 - 2011-12-08 20:24:39 UTC
CobaltSixty wrote:
For the last time, Caldari get one EWAR. ONE! Not two like everyone else, just one. The tradeoff it is very powerful and can fully prevent you from locking anyone when successful. Drones still work, F.O.F. still work, smartbombs still work, your tank still works.

Your argument about dampening having the chance to miss and so ECM needs to be nerfed is stupid. ECM also has optimal and falloff and the math works the same way. If you exceed the optimal distance from the target, your effective strength starts going down. If it falls enough, you can no longer permajam the target. The target could also fit ECCM which counters ECM - just like sensor boosters counter sensor damps - and will make any target over a frigate unable to be permajammed. You do realize that th MOST strength you can get on your own (without an information warfare linking booster) out of a Recon is under 17 points, overheated, right? Most call it a day around 14.5, which won't even permajam a T1 battlecruiser.

What is the problem here?



Cobalt is absolutely right, these are now the underpowered EWAR platform. -1 to OP
Mag's
Azn Empire
#6 - 2011-12-08 20:32:18 UTC
Please define perma jammed.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Xandralkus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2011-12-08 21:36:05 UTC
If you don't want to get permajammed, then use a midslot or two for some ECCM.

Compromising your ECM resistance in favor of a more impressive fitting is just a calculated risk.

A more serious problem is that other forms of Ewar are seriously underpowered, compared to ECM. Jammers are truly useful midslot modules - just like microwarpdrives, afterburners, stasis webbers, and warpscrams. Target painters, tracking disruptors, and sensor dampeners should be powerful enough to be roughly analogous in utility.

Eve UI wouldn't suck if CCP allowed UI addons.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#8 - 2011-12-08 22:21:12 UTC
Decrease the duration of a jam, decrease the cycle time of the jammer, adjust the cap used accordingly basicly I would love to see a ecm that is awesome at breaking locks, but not perma jamming the targets... this would make higher Scan res help also against ecm

What do you guys think?

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#9 - 2011-12-08 23:04:46 UTC


All other EWAR can be counter-acted with Player Skills.


Tracking Disrupted? Get Closer, Lower Angular Velocity.


Sensor Damps? Same thing - Adjust by getting closer or better coordination.


ECM? Nothing you can do to counter-act that with player skill.


Permajamming is too powerful and needs a slight nip to cut it down from being 100% effective. 5% guaranteed fail rate is more than reasonable given the power of ECM.

Where I am.
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
#10 - 2011-12-09 01:43:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Misanthra
Bloodpetal wrote:

Dampeners actually have a falloff and chance to miss when you're too far. They also don't totally stop you from being able to operate like ECM does.


ECM permajam is 100% **** you - a Dampener still lets you lock close targets and so on - or can be countered with a Sensor Booster or Remote Sensor Boosters. Permajam is unstoppable.





ecm has fall off. Don't like your damp falloff spend days to weeks in electronics skills.....just like caldari jammers do. Good caldari jammers do not just train recon 5 and say...meh....done. Optimal, falloff, effect boost and cap use are skills trained to high levels, if not maxed. have crap electronics skills, your td/damps will be crap. Yeah, these aren't fun skills and specialized to the point of annoyance. Welcome to the world of a falcon/scorp pilots who care enough to "perma jam" you....they can put lots of effort into it. those ship bonuses get you a nice start, still got to work a bit after that though.

Damps can shut people down....damp that kiter, force him to come to the range he doesn't want and you do. If I have a kite tactic going on...I am doing it for a reason. You have shut down my kting trick. depending on ship and fit.... I am fighting on your terms, not mine. May turn out bad for me ship/fit depending. Not a complete weapons shutdown granted....but a shutdown of tactics can be just as effective.


Counters:

Sensor implants, eccm, sensor backup arrays, fit the singal strenght t3 sub and trian to 5. when in t3's...or rely on blind luck. Killed a falcon non blob style. Drake hitter, crow tackler.....mr falcon faiied both jams rolls on those d10's and went boom.

Fleet variety....not sure how it is since patch, prepatch a falcon pilot could go 2 grav, 2 ladar and mutlispec and not regret the decision. Chance of seeing canes and drakes, high. Chance of seeing brutix, low. Why pack gallente jams when most fleets didnt even bring them along. Want cane/drake spam..seeing falcons/scorps spec'd for it is your downside..
CobaltSixty
Fawkes' Loyal Professionals
#11 - 2011-12-09 02:46:32 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:


All other EWAR can be counter-acted with Player Skills.


Tracking Disrupted? Get Closer, Lower Angular Velocity.


Sensor Damps? Same thing - Adjust by getting closer or better coordination.


ECM? Nothing you can do to counter-act that with player skill.


Permajamming is too powerful and needs a slight nip to cut it down from being 100% effective. 5% guaranteed fail rate is more than reasonable given the power of ECM.

If you're tracking SPEED disrupted, it'd be better to increase your distance so the target is moving less across your field of view. If you're optimal range disrupted, yes, it's better to get closer.
If sensor dampened, correct, maneuver closer.
ECM - INCREASE DISTANCE MAYBE? Caldari typically fly the slowest ships in the game - you shouldn't have any trouble outpacing them to a distance where their effective jam strength is reduced and you can retarget them. Caldari Recons can barely have optimals over 50km and they're the only thing that can permajam SOME ships above the frigate class.

Blackbirds have maximum optimals of 86km with two signal distortion ampifiers with a pitiful strength of 9.95 with racial jammers, unoverheated, with a particle dispersion augmentor (ECM strength rig). Scorpions manage 115km optimal with same mods and the same strength of less than 10 points. The only thing these ships permajam are T1 frigates which is NOT a problem. Get over your hate-on for Caldari's ONE EWAR and research the next topic you decide to start.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#12 - 2011-12-09 16:53:29 UTC


This would not effect any situation other than situations where the ECM Jammer has 100% chance of success.


It will always cap out at 95% chance of success. That's more than sufficient and in 95% of the cases you'd still get a permanent jam situation - but it allows a ONE IN TWENTY chance of actually being able to do something when the ECM pilot has more ecm points than your sensor strength.


I think that makes sense - it is a small case scenario but will allow some hope for action in certain situations.

Where I am.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#13 - 2011-12-09 17:45:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
The crucial difference between ECM and other EWar are stacking penalties. Damps, painters, and TDs all have stacking penalties that prevent them from scaling indefinitely, but ECM users can just keep piling on jammer after jammer, knowing that every additional ECM module will help keep the target locked down.

Either all EWar should have stacking penalties, or none. Change that, and EWar might become balanced again.
mnybag1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2011-12-09 17:59:46 UTC
There is never 100% chance of success. Each module acts on its own so there is always a certain percent chance of success: when you stack them, you are just pulling the probability in your favor towards 100, but the forumlas never let you hit 100%. ECM does completely shut you down (unless you have drones...) but it also is the only one with a chance of not working at all. A damper will always dampen as long as you are in range.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#15 - 2011-12-09 19:06:26 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Please define perma jammed.



A phrase used by those that do not fully understand how ECM actually works.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#16 - 2011-12-09 19:07:01 UTC
mnybag1 wrote:
There is never 100% chance of success. Each module acts on its own so there is always a certain percent chance of success: when you stack them, you are just pulling the probability in your favor towards 100, but the forumlas never let you hit 100%. ECM does completely shut you down (unless you have drones...) but it also is the only one with a chance of not working at all. A damper will always dampen as long as you are in range.



Whaaaaaaaaaaaat? Someone that understands how ECM works?

Why I never....
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#17 - 2011-12-09 19:21:42 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
knowing that every additional ECM module MIGHT help keep the target locked down.



FTFY

you know, because of probability and everything Roll
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#18 - 2011-12-09 19:40:27 UTC
Solution: Remove chance from the functionality, bringing it more in line with other EWARs. Chance should never really have been a factor in a game like EVE in the first place.

For example, have it break lock on activation, and increase scan resolution for duration. Do not prevent re-locking. Adjust cycle time and ship bonuses so that only certain ships (blackbird etc) can perma jam a target. Ideally, one bonused ewar platform would have to choose between locking down a single target, or disrupting multiple targets. Perhaps not the best idea, but better then the current function imo.

Overhaul Dscan!
mnybag1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2011-12-09 19:44:49 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Solution: Remove chance from the functionality, bringing it more in line with other EWARs. Chance should never really have been a factor in a game like EVE in the first place.

For example, have it break lock on activation, and increase scan resolution for duration. Do not prevent re-locking. Adjust cycle time and ship bonuses so that only certain ships (blackbird etc) can perma jam a target. Ideally, one bonused ewar platform would have to choose between locking down a single target, or disrupting multiple targets. Perhaps not the best idea, but better then the current function imo.




Chance is an engine driving almost all of the game. Chance of a rat spawning, chance of guns hitting at a range beyond optimal, etc etc. Furthermore, only a few ships can effectively lock down more than one target, and even then it is rolling the dice (no pun intended). The fix mentioned would COMPLETELY kill the point of ECM...
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#20 - 2011-12-09 19:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Emperor Salazar wrote:
mnybag1 wrote:
There is never 100% chance of success. Each module acts on its own so there is always a certain percent chance of success: when you stack them, you are just pulling the probability in your favor towards 100, but the forumlas never let you hit 100%. ECM does completely shut you down (unless you have drones...) but it also is the only one with a chance of not working at all. A damper will always dampen as long as you are in range.



Whaaaaaaaaaaaat? Someone that understands how ECM works?

Why I never....



http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ECM#ECM


The chance of one module to jam one ship on one cycle is p = ECM strength / ship sensor strength. (For the ECM module the strength against that ship's racial sensor type is used.) Hence, the probability that the jam fails is 1-p, the probability that at N jammers all fail is (1-p)^N, and so the the probability that at least one jammer succeeds is 1-(1-p)^N, assuming each jammer is of similar type. (The formula for different strengths of jammers is left as exercise.)


ECM Strenth = 12
Ship Sensor = 12

p = 12 / 12
p = 1

1-p = 0 = 0% chance of failure.


Dur.

Where I am.
12Next page