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POS's and the research story
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Lady Patricia
Pyro Tech Industries
#1 - 2014-08-02 21:19:19 UTC
Hey,
i research capital ship bpo's at a pos and found out the hard way (yea.... i think reading patch notes is cowardly) that when i research now at my own POS that i have to pay fees.

I have to buy the POS, i have to pay for the fuel, i have to pay the bpo's, so why do i have to pay for the research of my own bpo's in my own POS that runs with my own fuel?

i wouldn't complain about a few isk, but researching a carrier bpo from ME 9 to ME 10 is quite over 164 mil.
yea, i know that from ME 0 to ME 1 is cheaper, but still, my bpo, my pos, ...

i don't know what ccp wants to archive with that, if it's an isk sink then it's a quite unfair idea, as it hits just a few players very hard.

i realy hope ccp can tweak here a bit

Pyro Tech Industries

The capital production specialists

http://capships.com
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2014-08-02 22:13:12 UTC
Think of it this way, its a fee nobody can can escape. So even the guy in station has to pay this on top of taxes. Its not meant to be an isk sink, but rather an industry push to keep everyone from doing jobs in the same system.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-08-02 22:20:30 UTC
There are no more slots, so something had to take its place. Hence, the fees.

Yes, it's your BPO. Yes, it's your POS. But, it's also your scientists, and their families, and their need for things like food, and oxygen, and compensation for their expertise so they don't stay dirt-side designing planetary vehicles.

Or maybe you use slaves. Then you're paying for replacements, and you're paying the bounty hunters that are going through the trouble of kidnapping any Minmatar foolish enough to get a PhD in particle physics. You're paying for security to keep them from blowing themselves out an airlock to escape your little deep space hell.

Whatever, someone needs to get paid. Just be happy that CCP didn't make you pay in cargo (by actually hauling scientists to your research POSes), like they were considering.

And it's really not unfair to new players. It's incredibly easy to get a BPO up to a competitive level now. The only significant costs in time and ISK are in the 8-10 range.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#4 - 2014-08-02 22:40:45 UTC
It's hard to see the benefit right now of running ME/ TE out of a POS or anything else for that matter. A small POS is running around 1.8 billion a year in fuel and no station fee touches that level of cost.

The 30% speed is supposed to be the big selling point if you need to get that BPO back in to commission fast but the combined costs of fuel and fee to eliminate a passive time sink in stations is not balanced. Even copy time. I get 40% copy time benefit from a POS. So instead of 3 Archon copies a month I will get 4 maybe 5? That's a nice benefit but not nice enough to justify the POS. Give it 6 months and all Crius has done is made every POS up a valid target or really expensive bait.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#5 - 2014-08-02 23:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Ocih. If you have 20 people all using a single POS, thats now a mere 90 million per person a year.
That's the theory behind the POS. However the infrastructure of corp roles and security of assets isn't quite there yet (I.E. you can't pull from a PHA as far as I know, or deliver to one, only divisions of the Lab/Factory cargo hold). So it's difficult for 20 people to all use the same POS without security issues.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#6 - 2014-08-03 05:37:57 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ocih. If you have 20 people all using a single POS, thats now a mere 90 million per person a year.
That's the theory behind the POS. However the infrastructure of corp roles and security of assets isn't quite there yet (I.E. you can't pull from a PHA as far as I know, or deliver to one, only divisions of the Lab/Factory cargo hold). So it's difficult for 20 people to all use the same POS without security issues.


And until private storage is a part of POS structure there is nothing CCP can do to remove AWOX and corp thief threat from the Corp/ group idea behind POS. I've never seen a POS that was shared in complete trust by 20 people. Any corp that is willing to entertain a policy that would allow for something like that will get burned. It's not an if, it's a when.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#7 - 2014-08-03 10:58:49 UTC
Ocih wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ocih. If you have 20 people all using a single POS, thats now a mere 90 million per person a year.
That's the theory behind the POS. However the infrastructure of corp roles and security of assets isn't quite there yet (I.E. you can't pull from a PHA as far as I know, or deliver to one, only divisions of the Lab/Factory cargo hold). So it's difficult for 20 people to all use the same POS without security issues.


And until private storage is a part of POS structure there is nothing CCP can do to remove AWOX and corp thief threat from the Corp/ group idea behind POS. I've never seen a POS that was shared in complete trust by 20 people. Any corp that is willing to entertain a policy that would allow for something like that will get burned. It's not an if, it's a when.

Or is already so deeply entrenched in trusting each other that they're never accepting new members into the fold.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Lady Patricia
Pyro Tech Industries
#8 - 2014-08-04 11:24:15 UTC
Just an update, i put an Archon bpo into me 10 research and the costs in my POS where over 1,5 bil. I realy wonder if that's accurate price for a few labors to get paid... yea yea, i know, for that high me levels you need VERY SPECIALICED scientists and they have an awesome living standard to keep up Roll

Pyro Tech Industries

The capital production specialists

http://capships.com
Christopher Tsutola
State Navy
#9 - 2014-08-04 11:30:16 UTC
Ocih wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ocih. If you have 20 people all using a single POS, thats now a mere 90 million per person a year.
That's the theory behind the POS. However the infrastructure of corp roles and security of assets isn't quite there yet (I.E. you can't pull from a PHA as far as I know, or deliver to one, only divisions of the Lab/Factory cargo hold). So it's difficult for 20 people to all use the same POS without security issues.


And until private storage is a part of POS structure there is nothing CCP can do to remove AWOX and corp thief threat from the Corp/ group idea behind POS. I've never seen a POS that was shared in complete trust by 20 people. Any corp that is willing to entertain a policy that would allow for something like that will get burned. It's not an if, it's a when.


You never lived in WH-space then i take it?
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-08-04 17:19:37 UTC
Lady Patricia wrote:
Just an update, i put an Archon bpo into me 10 research and the costs in my POS where over 1,5 bil. I realy wonder if that's accurate price for a few labors to get paid... yea yea, i know, for that high me levels you need VERY SPECIALICED scientists and they have an awesome living standard to keep up Roll

You have to beat out your competitor who is offering 1.49 Billion. Supply and demand, you know. Don't like it? Move to a less-busy system.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#11 - 2014-08-04 20:21:17 UTC
Christopher Tsutola wrote:
Ocih wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ocih. If you have 20 people all using a single POS, thats now a mere 90 million per person a year.
That's the theory behind the POS. However the infrastructure of corp roles and security of assets isn't quite there yet (I.E. you can't pull from a PHA as far as I know, or deliver to one, only divisions of the Lab/Factory cargo hold). So it's difficult for 20 people to all use the same POS without security issues.


And until private storage is a part of POS structure there is nothing CCP can do to remove AWOX and corp thief threat from the Corp/ group idea behind POS. I've never seen a POS that was shared in complete trust by 20 people. Any corp that is willing to entertain a policy that would allow for something like that will get burned. It's not an if, it's a when.


You never lived in WH-space then i take it?


So corp theft doesn't happen because once upon a time in WH-Space?

Lady Patricia wrote:
Just an update, i put an Archon bpo into me 10 research and the costs in my POS where over 1,5 bil. I realy wonder if that's accurate price for a few labors to get paid... yea yea, i know, for that high me levels you need VERY SPECIALICED scientists and they have an awesome living standard to keep up Roll



Add a dozen capital parts BPO's to the list of 1.5 billion ISK upgrades you need. 15 in truth. You should have multiple copies of Drone bay to stop bottleneck. So yea, a 20 billion ISK construction project is now a 40 billion ISK construction project. The long and the short here though is, why are you even doing this? I made a comment in another thread about wanting 400 billion minimum to make a push for Sov. It was based on these kinds of numbers. I just don't see how Crius made EVE more friendly to new and small entities.

It still needs adjustments.
Frankie Benjy
Deep Thought Labs
#12 - 2014-08-04 20:26:38 UTC
simples: Hi-sec POSes are no longer worth it.

I hope CCP fixes that soon. More incentive to use them is needed. Much more.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2014-08-04 23:14:36 UTC
Frankie Benjy wrote:
simples: Hi-sec POSes are no longer worth it.

I hope CCP fixes that soon. More incentive to use them is needed. Much more.

I use one, tell me what the reasons I shouldnt are?
Currently I save 2% on materials which is sufficient for fuel bills and have enough time reduction for many things to be done during my playable hours
Frankie Benjy
Deep Thought Labs
#14 - 2014-08-05 13:53:26 UTC
The context here was research, copying, etc.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#15 - 2014-08-05 14:23:07 UTC
Lady Patricia wrote:
Just an update, i put an Archon bpo into me 10 research and the costs in my POS where over 1,5 bil. I realy wonder if that's accurate price for a few labors to get paid... yea yea, i know, for that high me levels you need VERY SPECIALICED scientists and they have an awesome living standard to keep up Roll

Have you ever considered that you can look up the cost index (which is used to calculate the install costs for jobs) before you start the job? If the cost index in your current system is too high, maybe it's time to consider moving to a system with a lower index to save you on install costs. I hear there's a whole slew of newly-available 0.8, 0.9, and 1.0 systems with virtually zero cost index.

Just a thought.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#16 - 2014-08-05 14:38:14 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Lady Patricia wrote:
Just an update, i put an Archon bpo into me 10 research and the costs in my POS where over 1,5 bil. I realy wonder if that's accurate price for a few labors to get paid... yea yea, i know, for that high me levels you need VERY SPECIALICED scientists and they have an awesome living standard to keep up Roll

Have you ever considered that you can look up the cost index (which is used to calculate the install costs for jobs) before you start the job? If the cost index in your current system is too high, maybe it's time to consider moving to a system with a lower index to save you on install costs. I hear there's a whole slew of newly-available 0.8, 0.9, and 1.0 systems with virtually zero cost index.

Just a thought.


And risking the destruction of billions of capital BPO in the process due to a single mistake or a server glitch?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Johann Rascali
The Milkmen
Sedition.
#17 - 2014-08-05 14:50:37 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
And risking the destruction of billions of capital BPO in the process due to a single mistake or a server glitch?

Risk to not pay, pay to not risk. Sounds like EVE to me.

Blanking signatures doesn't seem to work, so this is here.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#18 - 2014-08-05 15:35:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Johann Rascali wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
And risking the destruction of billions of capital BPO in the process due to a single mistake or a server glitch?

Risk to not pay, pay to not risk. Sounds like EVE to me.

Precisely. If the OP wants the benefit of not having to move their billions in BPOs, they have to pay for the more expensive install costs at their current location.

Their call.

EDIT: Something else to keep in mind. If they're doing research at a POS anyways, they're already moving said expensive BPOs. If they're out-of-station, why not move them somewhere more cost-effective?

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs