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Sov and Capital changes - Time line & commitment from CCP side
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Prince Kobol
#61 - 2014-08-04 12:55:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Anthar Thebess wrote:
What im suggesting is not total fix , but part of those changes.

As for smaller alliances , how often they bridge few 255 man fleets?
How often they drop 50 supers to kill small tower or battlecruiser in some remote lowsec.
How many small groups now own sov ?


In other words your suggestions change nothing other then make it even harder for smaller groups to have a chance of owning a small piece of space.

You don't seem to have any idea how many Titans the CFC and N3 have. So they have to use a couple of extra Titans, big deal.

You can triple fuel costs and half jump range, it will make no difference. These guys have such an amazing logistical capacity that they could very easily overcome a nerf to jump range.

Hell I bet if both groups really wanted to they could put multiple cyno pilots in every system in Eve and then some.

By making jump fuel more expansive and nerfing jump range all your going to do is make it next to impossible for new groups to even attempt to fight somebody because they will not be able to afford it.

Anthar Thebess wrote:
How many small groups own Sov..
That is the problem !!!!

It is not healthy for the game to have only 2 entities. We should of have a Universe where there are 10 different groups all blowing the crap out of each and 10 more looking for an opportunity to sneak in and take advantage.

Whilst all this is happening we should countless other groups in HS and low are working towards one day being able to get into the fight and owning a piece of Sov themselves.

What we have now is 2 entities who have good fights, use other groups who are zero threat to generate content in a hapless attempt for line members not to get bored whilst both groups have agreements not to mess with each others renters so they can billions of isk each month because of how broken Sov Mechanics are.

Yippee
Anthar Thebess
#62 - 2014-08-04 13:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Prince Kobol wrote:


CVA only exist in null because Providence is so damn worthless and the nobody would go through the effort it would take to grind all those structures for crap space.



Are you sure?
Lets look at Providence after the changes in the industry :
over 70 stations , 2 direct links to higsec.

Nothing just take this region , make JB network to the higsec exits and rent it out not based on the SS but mostly on the station type.

I see there at least 2 titans per month just by income from renting out those stations.
Probably one or 2 another from renting systems them self.
There is around 15? ice belts - so additional mothership per month to land lords.

CFC want to make nullsec industry hub north , but Providence Renting space can be excellent to do the same south.

I see now Providence as excellent renting space for the industry corporations - direct access to higsec provided.

Content generator, and easy kills : H.E.R.O.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Prince Kobol
#63 - 2014-08-04 13:07:53 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:


CVA only exist in null because Providence is so damn worthless and the nobody would go through the effort it would take to grind all those structures for crap space.



Are you sure?
Lets look at Providence after the changes in the industry :
over 70 stations , 2 direct links to higsec.

Nothing just take this region , make JB network to the higsec exits and rent it out not based on the SS but mostly on the station type.

I see there at least 2 titans per month just by income from renting out those stations.
Probably one or 2 another from renting systems them self.
There is around 15? ice belts - so additional mothership per month to land lords.

CFC want to make nullsec industry hub north , but Providence Renting space can be excellent to do the same south.

I see now Providence as excellent renting space for the industry corporations - direct access to higsec provided.


If you see Providence as excellent renting space then you really do not know anything about Eve.

Also what **** is a mothership???
Anthar Thebess
#64 - 2014-08-04 13:17:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Prince Kobol wrote:

If you see Providence as excellent renting space then you really do not know anything about Eve.

Also what **** is a mothership???


Old name for super carrier.

People where renting space to rat, or build supers on some dead ends.
If you could monopolize station only for your own use , then you can also do nice amount of isk.
Especially that you don't have to pay for POS.

NCPL , the NC part have small issue, as CFC is creating in the north gigantic production hub.
Providence can be the same , especially when others created already base for it spawning there stations.
2 connections Nullsec <> Higsec - make it perfect.

Space easy to take , put there renters, give them small renting costs in terms of isk, but at the same time put in the renting agreements monthly fee in ships and modules.

Something like CFC is doing north , but on your own yard, without having your hands dirty.

Perfect solution don't you think?
In terms of industry Providence can generate high war materials supply that can be gathered and stockpiled on lowsec stations that this region is also bordering.

How much time is needed to grind the providence using NCPL hands , and HERO bloob?
2-3 weeks , and then region will provide isk for new supers and 4-5 fully fitted fleets of ships just waiting when you need them per month.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2014-08-04 13:42:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

It's because, when it comes to software in general, and video games in particular, you can have fast, or you can have quality. You do not get both when complexity is involved. And in EVE, complexity is a given. So I stridently disagree with the notion of a "timeline".


How many years does a company need to be in business to void the "3 guys in a garage that dont know what they are doing" card? :)


Ask Bethesda. Or Dice, if you really want some laughs.


No, im asking you, in the end the customers accept it, you seem to be very happy still being slapped with it and slapping others, like we are in som 90's tv movie where the head progamming guru in a business suit is trying to fix the mission critical bug that the app is taking 8 seconds to print and not 5, by typing assembler lines into a spreadsheet :)

It is not unreasonable to expect that someone somewhere in CCP knows, very broadly, how much effort such a change would take, and where there would be time for it in the shedule.

Just saying.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#66 - 2014-08-04 13:46:06 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

It's because, when it comes to software in general, and video games in particular, you can have fast, or you can have quality. You do not get both when complexity is involved. And in EVE, complexity is a given. So I stridently disagree with the notion of a "timeline".


How many years does a company need to be in business to void the "3 guys in a garage that dont know what they are doing" card? :)


Ask Bethesda. Or Dice, if you really want some laughs.


No, im asking you, in the end the customers accept it, you seem to be very happy still being slapped with it and slapping others.

Just saying.


That, or I would rather see the issue actually fixed rather than just given a facelift for the sake of the impatient.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2014-08-04 13:49:20 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


That, or I would rather see the issue actually fixed rather than just given a facelift for the sake of the impatient.


I have ammended it, cause its monday it seems...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#68 - 2014-08-04 13:50:55 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:

It is not unreasonable to expect that someone somewhere in CCP knows, very broadly, how much effort such a change would take, and where there would be time for it in the shedule.

Just saying.


Yes, that is in fact unreasonable.

Or are you unaware that they have to rebuild the game's base code first? They kinda have to do that first, since the current stuff is more or less undocumented and the guys who wrote it are no longer CCP employees.

Can you, Barton Breau, give me a timeline right now for how fast you can reprogram a decade old underwater physics simulator pressed into service as a spaceship game, hard coded to be single threaded through a military grade supercomputer?

Or is that unreasonable to ask?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2014-08-04 13:56:45 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Yes, that is in fact unreasonable.

Or are you unaware that they have to rebuild the game's base code first? They kinda have to do that first, since the current stuff is more or less undocumented and the guys who wrote it are no longer CCP employees.

Can you, Barton Breau, give me a timeline right now for how fast you can reprogram a decade old underwater physics simulator pressed into service as a spaceship game, hard coded to be single threaded through a military grade supercomputer?

Or is that unreasonable to ask?


How many years in that situation have i been already looking into it, fixing bugs and adding features?

Or are we really assuming a level of miscommunication where some team leader approaches the boss with "there is a lot of it and its old" and the boss just says "nevermind then" without ever asking more?
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2014-08-04 13:57:01 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Will not support.

I honestly do not want ccp to give out any half assed can;t do plans or times lines. After 10 years of that, i am willing to give the new system a chance, they will get crap done when its done, not before, and give us information based on what is actually feasible. So, no, you can be patient. /thread

theyve already given out a plan. They just did industry, next up is POS code, then corp, then they will see what they can do with SOV based on the new mechanics introduced in the previous supporting features. afterwards they are looking at Player-made stargates and other "new content" things.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#71 - 2014-08-04 14:11:35 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Yes, that is in fact unreasonable.

Or are you unaware that they have to rebuild the game's base code first? They kinda have to do that first, since the current stuff is more or less undocumented and the guys who wrote it are no longer CCP employees.

Can you, Barton Breau, give me a timeline right now for how fast you can reprogram a decade old underwater physics simulator pressed into service as a spaceship game, hard coded to be single threaded through a military grade supercomputer?

Or is that unreasonable to ask?


How many years in that situation have i been already looking into it, fixing bugs and adding features?

Or are we really assuming a level of miscommunication where some team leader approaches the boss with "there is a lot of it and its old" and the boss just says "nevermind then" without ever asking more?


I feel like I'm talking to the Dilbert boss.

I don't care what market paradigm you can leverage for consumer synergy, or whatever else.

It's done when it's done. Rushing leads to problems, or, like Dominion, it leads to not really fixing the problem at all and wasting all that dev time.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2014-08-04 14:23:22 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


I feel like I'm talking to the Dilbert boss.

I don't care what market paradigm you can leverage for consumer synergy, or whatever else.

It's done when it's done. Rushing leads to problems, or, like Dominion, it leads to not really fixing the problem at all and wasting all that dev time.


Interesting leap, from estimation to rushing, have you had that looked at yet? :)
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#73 - 2014-08-04 18:32:11 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
Here is why this is a stupid command, time for a small history lesson:

And then behold, in 2004 CCP launched an expansion called Exodus, this was the start of null sec sov and alliances. Befor this groups had a non offical way of making alliances and claiming sov.

The system worked like this, you deploy a pos, and after DT you get sov. null eventually became a game of who can spam the most pos'. So for exsample. if alliance a owned system xx-xxx and it had 5 moons, if they deployed 1 large, and alliance z deployed 4 small just before DT, allaince z would gain sov.

CCP then made a change, you now had to wait 7 days to get sov...

Then CCP made the pos' have weight. 1 small = 1 point, 1 medium = 5 points 1 large = 7 points. Most points wins sov.

Then CCP had this /sarcasism BRILLANT IDEA /Sarcasim of constalation sov. If you owned 51% of the systems in a constalation, had 3 out post, you could claim a capital and that system was invulernable to any form of attack, even the pos'. So we had a HUGE influx of supers and titans. But we were suppsoe to get more tools!

Then came dominion, and the system we have now... but we are suppose to get mroe tools.

Honestly, i want CCP to take there time, give us no actual time lines untill they are ready and know WTF they are going to do. I want this done right, not a half assed attempt that will be borken a week after release.



I understand what you are saying , but i'm hoping that those 10 years ( 2004 <->2014) was enough for CCP to know what is wrong and what needs to be changed.
If CCP is still unaware where are the issues we have also many, again many topics where people are suggesting solutions.

For most of involved players waiting next 10 years for a fix (2014-2024) is not an option.

Sorry.
This is game, not a mortgage on your home.
If something is wrong, it is not giving you fun ... you can simply "forget" about it.




I'm not saying that they don;t know whats going on or how to fix it, i am saying that i would rather they take time and do it right then rush an idea they think will be good and the collective player hive mind shows them that no that idea is flawed. Hell they did not think we would colonize wormholes and that it would be difficult to live there... They also wanted us to have regonal sov and tools, but moved on to the next shiney. I want ccp to stop making the next big thing, promise to take care of it, then leve it to collect dust and break as they move on to the next shiney. This new system seems to be the cure for that, and i'm willing to wait to be sure they can do somethign with sov and caps that if its broken or not working right they can easily adjust and fix.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#74 - 2014-08-04 18:34:49 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:


What is with all of the toddler tantrum "I want my toy now!" threads of late? James had one a week or two ago, demanding a comprehensive capital, supercapital, and sov update in 6-8 weeks (when hyperion releases) lol. Most of you are adults, with something that passes for a brain sitting inside your skull. Rub your two neurons together and think before you post.



Dude, people have been asking for changes to Sov Mechanics and Capitals for years now, this is nothing new.



Yeah but demanding them to start now (as their summer holiday is winding down) and push a finished product (comprehensive cap, super, and sov overhaul) in 3 months is sub moronic. You're either gonna get ignored or (in the worst case) they will actually listen to you and push out something totally rushed and sh*t-tastic in 3 months that we'll all have to live with for 5 years.


The vast majority of people are not asking CCP to start the work now.

What we are asking is for CCP to start talking to us, the player base about what ideas they have now.

CCP have a poor record for introducing very badly thought out ideas. They also have a bad habit of missing the bloody obvious.

Just look at there latest idea for spawning in Wormholes. Its beyond dumb.

So with that in mind what many players are asking for is that instead of CCP doing the usual of investing hundreds of man hours and then coming to us and hey look at this, is to actually go "guys here are some idea we have about where we want to take Null Sec what do you think?

The rework of Sov Mechanics is arguable the most important thing CCP have done in years, its a mammoth job and will ultimately shape Eve for years to come. Nobody wants another Incarna.

So lets start talking about it now.


They already have started talking. Just slowly, they are not ready for the sov fix, as the next thing in the time line is corp and alliances, because the permissions and roles mmm suck. I'm fine with a little information and as things get closer more details. The op is pretty much saying 'we want all info right now and you to work on sov only right now' but that not how it works. As long as they fix it right, and are flexable to change it quickly if its not working how they wished then i'm ok with waititng

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#75 - 2014-08-04 18:41:41 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Instead of making demands, issuing timeliness, demanding commitments, and generally behaving like pouting toddlers, why not actually make constructive posts asking ccp nicely what they intend to do with sov?


As someone pointed out, for some people it is 10 years now, what do you feel would be the adequate time to get annoyed, 20 years, 30 years?

In the end, however me or you or anyone will get angry, the devs cannot spend 12 hours a day on forums, and even if they could, the industry policy unfortunately is to not engage. The screeching wheel is most likely to get oiled.


Well im not asking for a total re-haul of Sov and (super)capitals in 3 months , but some tweaks and changes that will put some positive changes in place. They don't have to be final - you can say that im asking from CCP some prof that they are willing to do something about current situation.
Those minor changes are the "commitment" that many player are waiting for.

What can be done in those 3-4 months?
1. making capital cap don't instantly recharge on stations ( much slower capital movements) , or even better cap recharging much slower on stations.
2. limiting remote change of cloning station in nullsec / lowsec to station you are currently docked. Just to limit deathcloning.
3. Increasing fuel consumption for all SUPER CAPITALS.

Why? To make dreads usable again.
What is the point using dreads , when they can be killed while in siege, tackled , have low EHP ... when you can replace them with titans : http://hq.c0ven.pl/kb/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=269886.
Titans : they are like dreads, but no siege, bigger EHP and burn the same amount of fuel.
You can also drop 20 motherships as their logistics.

Will those 3 changes fix all issues - no, but they are step in right direction. If those changes will be bad to eve - simply change stuff in the next expansion.

What are the next changes ?
Many ideas here
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=356024

Why people asking for fast changes , this can brake a lot of stuff.
I'm asking what fast changes - for some of them people are asking for almost 10 years now.
Can nullsec be worst after those 3 changes im proposing?
1. Slower movement for capitals, but still effective.
2. More dedication for timers.
3. More expensive moment , still as effective and unbalanced as now. But when you drop 40 supers to kill small pos - you are going to pay few billions in fuel cost instead 200mil while using dreads.


I'm only going to address #2 of your siggestions... WTF have you been smoking? you want to limit deathcloning? like what, limit where i can move my clone? Why? that won;t solve anything, just make ti harder to move around or get back home if i die randomly someplace. You already have clone limits in null, as you have to be in good standings to have your clone there. So.. that is a kinda a stupid idea

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#76 - 2014-08-04 19:23:58 UTC
The absolute best change you can make to SOV is make all resources finite.

(You'll see more PVP and SOV warfare in this game in the first month after that change than the first 11 years combined)

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#77 - 2014-08-04 19:44:32 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
The absolute best change you can make to SOV is make all resources finite.

(You'll see more PVP and SOV warfare in this game in the first month after that change than the first 11 years combined)



Best way to fix sov is to make it residency based. Replace anoms with mission agents in player outposts so you can have more than 10 people per system and end the sprawling powerblocks.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2014-08-04 19:57:24 UTC
Django Askulf wrote:
General Nusense wrote:
any change suggested by CFC should be thrown away



Yes.

Also kind of funny the growing bandwagon about SOV and Power projection nowdays, and most everyone in null, did this to themselves.

Lets create huge rental empires, cry about sentries (certain group), which make the grind slower, then demand CCP fix's it all for us.

Im all for changes, but really. I half feel like if I were CCP, I would just tell the public tough ****. NIP's, BOTLORD accords....wtfever.

We did this, yes. We did it because the game made it essentially the best way to play it and still have at least some **** to do.

Without B0TLRD we'd just conquer everything and damn that would be even more boring than what we have now.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Prince Kobol
#79 - 2014-08-04 20:06:21 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Django Askulf wrote:
General Nusense wrote:
any change suggested by CFC should be thrown away



Yes.

Also kind of funny the growing bandwagon about SOV and Power projection nowdays, and most everyone in null, did this to themselves.

Lets create huge rental empires, cry about sentries (certain group), which make the grind slower, then demand CCP fix's it all for us.

Im all for changes, but really. I half feel like if I were CCP, I would just tell the public tough ****. NIP's, BOTLORD accords....wtfever.

We did this, yes. We did it because the game made it essentially the best way to play it and still have at least some **** to do.

Without B0TLRD we'd just conquer everything and damn that would be even more boring than what we have now.



Not only would I like to see you try it but actually accomplish it.

Maybe then and only then would CCP wake up.
brinelan
#80 - 2014-08-04 20:07:03 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Hello.

As your customer , can i have answers to simple questions.
In the near future , so less than 3-4 months CCP will make changes to :
- SOV
- Capitals and Super Capitals

If yes , to what degree.

Please don't spam this topic.
If you also want to know the answer to this question from CCP : like this topic and post :
Quote:
Support


Yes , i'm asking CCP for making a commitment.

so ccp seagull saying that they're making sov changes by the end of the year isn't good enough?