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Distance that you're being ejected out of a wormhole depends on mass

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Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#281 - 2014-08-04 01:54:03 UTC
Meytal wrote:


One day these changes will be too much for an entire segment of your game's community, and W-space will just be nullsec farmers. And you guys will still probably have no clue what that W-space thing is.


It's pretty much already that now bar about 10 groups (in the higher end holes)

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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#282 - 2014-08-04 01:58:32 UTC
Hatshepsut IV wrote:

I'll break it down so even a bullhead can understand.

Wormholes are not gates. W-space is not Nullsec nor do we want it to be more like Nullsec. The mechanics surrounding kspace gate fights are a big draw/reason a lot of us live in w-space, so we don't have to deal with that crap.


Tldr.

Different from kspace is good, GTFO with your it works for us in null crap. It's not wanted and not constructive.

aside from the language and the loss of temper which is a giveaway of someone not thinking rationally, this is an argument based purely on the status quo.

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Meytal
Doomheim
#283 - 2014-08-04 01:59:15 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
corbexx wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
This seems like a good change that will cause a lot more interesting choices.


please explain whats good about it and the more interesting choices. please also apply them to. c1 wh's, c2 to c4 wh's and then c5 to c6 wh's also please take in to account farmers and pvpers. Small groups that live in the lower class wh's and bigger groups in the higher class wh's.

this is in line with what ships do when they activate gates and need to "burn to the gate" to get back. it's unprecedented when carriers and dreads can't use gates, but it's the same tactical situation as if they could. in comparison, jumping through a wormhole and being within reactivation range is a little too easy and thoughtless. it would seem the motivation behind this is making a wormhole jump more purposeful, as in this change is fine for people whose intention it is to use a wormhole one-way rather than jumping straight back. for them, the further away from the hole they spawn, the better.

that said... the absolute value of this change whether good or bad is very outside of the ordinary, and I think CCP should be commended for thinking of such a bold move.

So, are they going to add polarization to K-space gates? Or remove it from wormholes?

Already mentioned ad nauseum is the fact that W-space and wormholes != K-space and gates. They are different mechanics with different play styles and are used in different ways. Because something works in one area doesn't mean it'll work just fine everywhere else. That's something CCP has been screwing up on quite a bit lately as well.

Differing play styles are good. Making everything the same is not good.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#284 - 2014-08-04 02:02:46 UTC
unprecedented does not mean similarities are bad. those similarities also do not indicate intent.

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Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#285 - 2014-08-04 02:07:48 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
My response to this thread are not trolling at all, these are my legitimate views that this change is a move in the right direction for WH space.

what 'right direction' is that?
one where people don't roll holes?
one where people cannot roll holes quickly in order to cycle for content?

this change reduces the likelyhood of PVP, it does NOT increase it.

you really think people will continue rage rolling if they need to do it in a subcap fleet?
you really think people will blindly try close incoming hostile holes with caps or BSs if they spawn outside of jump range?

ive killled more than a few people closing holes in all sorts of ships that were stabbed out the ass or 'safe' cos they insta roll. it isnt hard to catch these ships, making them spawn out of range will guarantee you wont catch them as they'll never leave the POS.

I don't know what station you've been spinning in lately but your 'opinion' here is WAY off the mark.


You really think you should have the right to safely roll away a hostile incoming Wh with perfect safety with your dread and Orca?

you really think people should be able to rage roll as it stands now with only a few people active while the rest sit on TS sperging about the other games they are activily playing while those few people SAFELY rage roll? Is that how it should be? LOL

You really think it should be ok that when skirmish's happen they are allowed to safely jump the subcap fleet then the dread home when the risk becomes to great for the fight they just entered into?

I really do think this would increase PVP and FORCED PVP not the near perfect safety it is done with current mechanics

these activities are nowhere NEAR as safe as you make them out to be.
like I said, I've killed ships in all of those situations on MANY occasions, and I know I'm not the only one.

in any case, what's your alternative? if this change goes in the alternative is people will stop actively looking for content. I dont see how that help anyone, anywhere in any way.


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Bleedingthrough
#286 - 2014-08-04 02:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Bleedingthrough
Durzel wrote:
Someone made a point (sorry forgot name) that currently rage rolling as an activity right now is one or two guys with the same couple of ship types doing the same thing over and over on total safety and confidence of well known mass mechanics while the rest of the corp is either asleep or playing World of Tanks or something until (if) something happens....

That doesn't seem odd to anyone in so-called dangerous space?


Anyone else finds it amusing that the exact opposite of what has been suggested by CCP (here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=331782&find=unread) would make crushing way more dangerous: instant activation of the K162 side of WHs before warp to them has been initiated.

If this mechanic will apply to BS in a similar manner we (living in a C2 with null/C5 static) would most likely be facing the following a lot more:

People sitting in POS for 24h because it would be suicide to roll?
Pain in the ass to crush to another group that wants to play?
Resulting in making it a lot harder to get podded players back in our WH or to reship in jita.

I am not convinced that this change would benefit w-space.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#287 - 2014-08-04 02:13:03 UTC
Lets see. There is broken stuff in wormhole space. What to do.

How about fix sig changes after downtime.

That only affects.. all of Australia, Asia, Russia, and half of Europe.

Why not try to please HALF THE PLANET?!?

If you don't know what to fix about wormhole space, Start There.

Once you have fixed that... Then go here WSpace Little Things

Once you have gone through and addressed all of those elements supported by the community and its representative. Then.. you can debate whether your wormhole change would be a good option.

You have a list, created by the community. You may not like that list, but this is not about what you like, it is about what needs to be done and NOT what you think.

Flip your corporate pyramid putting you on top and us on bottom upside down. We are the most important part of the game. We are your community. How about addressing some of the things your community says is wrong with your game.


Yaay!!!!
Winthorp
#288 - 2014-08-04 02:13:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
Jack Miton wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
My response to this thread are not trolling at all, these are my legitimate views that this change is a move in the right direction for WH space.

what 'right direction' is that?
one where people don't roll holes?
one where people cannot roll holes quickly in order to cycle for content?

this change reduces the likelyhood of PVP, it does NOT increase it.

you really think people will continue rage rolling if they need to do it in a subcap fleet?
you really think people will blindly try close incoming hostile holes with caps or BSs if they spawn outside of jump range?

ive killled more than a few people closing holes in all sorts of ships that were stabbed out the ass or 'safe' cos they insta roll. it isnt hard to catch these ships, making them spawn out of range will guarantee you wont catch them as they'll never leave the POS.

I don't know what station you've been spinning in lately but your 'opinion' here is WAY off the mark.


You really think you should have the right to safely roll away a hostile incoming Wh with perfect safety with your dread and Orca?

you really think people should be able to rage roll as it stands now with only a few people active while the rest sit on TS sperging about the other games they are activily playing while those few people SAFELY rage roll? Is that how it should be? LOL

You really think it should be ok that when skirmish's happen they are allowed to safely jump the subcap fleet then the dread home when the risk becomes to great for the fight they just entered into?

I really do think this would increase PVP and FORCED PVP not the near perfect safety it is done with current mechanics

these activities are nowhere NEAR as safe as you make them out to be.
like I said, I've killed ships in all of those situations on MANY occasions, and I know I'm not the only one.

in any case, what's your alternative? if this change goes in the alternative is people will stop actively looking for content. I dont see how that help anyone, anywhere in any way.




Sure i should be corrected as they are not 100% safe but be honest here Jack they are 95% safe because i too have killed people in those situations but i too like you have watched idly by as the other 95% just got away to jew safely another day.

I don't think this will be as bad as you all make out, what it will mean is when rage rolling people will have to stop being lazy as hell about it, and when people jump into a fight they are committing themselves, not just until they feel like the losses will become to bad if they don't jump home.

Hell it will even change the current meta up that web boats will become more prevalent now and choices will have to be made will it be more lokis,Jams or Nuets, start thinking of the possibilities and not the negatives.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#289 - 2014-08-04 02:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
that it's based on mass should say enough about the change to make some assumptions. it's too easy to send mass through and back again. a player who is not willing to admit this should probably step away from the thread and come back when they're ready to consider the ways it will change their gameplay. theorycrafting is the prudent thing to do right now.

you can still roll if you want to. this situation favors teamwork, e.g. ten battleships over 1 cap. mass counting is more accurate that way anyway.

this really isn't something to be upset about.

nevermind that I have ten such characters at my disposal. lol

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Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
#290 - 2014-08-04 02:17:08 UTC
So I went to work and had a full day to think about this........its still ****. Sorry CCP this will kill pretty much every corp in wh space that has less then 10 people on constantly. As for all the Im going to move to null people that's exactly what they want personally id rather unsub then play in the broken ass sov system. There are 100s of other things that need fixed before we just shake up WH space for no reason. All I can think of when I see a stupid idea like this is how great loot spew for hacking was........
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#291 - 2014-08-04 02:20:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
if the spawn distance compared to mass is linear, and a battleship is 10-15% the mass of a cap, the spawn distance for that battleship would be under 5 km. not much of a change for groups who roll with numbers.

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Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
#292 - 2014-08-04 02:24:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Deeone
Winthorp wrote:
corbexx wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
This seems like a good change that will cause a lot more interesting choices.


please explain whats good about it and the more interesting choices. please also apply them to. c1 wh's, c2 to c4 wh's and then c5 to c6 wh's also please take in to account farmers and pvpers. Small groups that live in the lower class wh's and bigger groups in the higher class wh's.


I will.

So currently most groups in C2,3,4 roll with stabbed and jam fit Scorpions with verry little danger at all and if they don't roll holes like this then they are doing it wrong as it currently stands.

This will also help smaller groups that like to PVP, no longer will they catch someone with their pants down only for that person to sit cloaked at the WH with two sets of cloak timers giving them extra time to wait until backup arrives from their C5/6, instead they will be 15km's off the hole dying to that C2 guy with him and his mate having a go at PVP.

The only guy i feel gets screwed on this mechanic is the guy living in a C1 (Lets face it they are mostly reaction farms anyway) or the guy with a C1 static.


There will be no one in c1-c4 cuz they cant efficiently roll to pvp or farm........as for c5-c6 id guess the goons or brave will move in and blob everyone to death since you wont be able to roll your hole without a group..........as a side note ive been in wh space for years now and ive only seen scorps rolling a hole once........orcas or heavy bs are far more common in the lower classes....maybe your corp was so risk adverse that it only rolled with jamming stabbed bs (id wager you are dead b4 you can lock to jam since you know there is no drawback to stabs.) tbh if im rolling a hole its because its empty and there is no pvp or pve to be had. I might be in the minority but I can say I have never rolled a wh to avoid pvp.

EDIT: who the hell uses stabs where hictors are so common.........
Bleedingthrough
#293 - 2014-08-04 02:28:22 UTC
Deeone wrote:
So I went to work and had a full day to think about this........its still ****. Sorry CCP this will kill pretty much every corp in wh space that has less then 10 people on constantly. As for all the Im going to move to null people that's exactly what they want personally id rather unsub then play in the broken ass sov system. There are 100s of other things that need fixed before we just shake up WH space for no reason. All I can think of when I see a stupid idea like this is how great loot spew for hacking was........


From my experience crushing in two waves (that would be 5 people) is good/safe enough most of the time for C5s.
Winthorp
#294 - 2014-08-04 02:29:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
Deeone wrote:

There will be no one in c1-c4 cuz they cant efficiently roll to pvp or farm........as for c5-c6 id guess the goons or brave will move in and blob everyone to death since you wont be able to roll your hole without a group.....


Bahahahahahaha i have nothing constructive to add to that post at all, that is just absurd wow.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#295 - 2014-08-04 02:31:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
10 scorps between 150 and 250 gigagrams and a hictor or two. this is the death of the standby roll team of the carrier and orca, which is flawed as it is.

an elegant solution, imo.

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Angrod Losshelin
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#296 - 2014-08-04 02:51:27 UTC
Have been reading for 15 pages now...I still see no valid or concise reason this is in any way a good idea. Provide numbers, like I have or make a valid point please. Some one explain why this isn't complete ****.

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Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#297 - 2014-08-04 02:58:49 UTC
The way I personally see it:


  • Catching stuff going through a hole to the tacklers side will be easier. Depending on the tacklers choice of ship of course. No more 'the HiSec is always safe to bring an Orca through, cause you can always get straight out if it goes south'.
  • Rolling holes will be quite a chore and a lot more dangerous.
  • Slipping away in a cloaky ship when going through a hole will be very easy.
  • (Depending on the final exit distance, cloaky bubblers on the hole might be a less seen thing.
  • Getting things like POS fuel/industry goods/PI materials in and out will be a lot more risky. Expect larger corps to benefit as they will be the ones able to run an Escort gang to keep the Industrials safe.
  • Also: I predict the Arazu getting popular. A will long webbers.
  • Cloaky transports will become even more popular.


All these assumptions and opinions as based upon the range varying to up to 30-40 km. As Devs said this will probably be less... But still. If entrance range is kept at 5 km the travel could be significant.

Personally I think the changes will mean the following:


  • Sites and sigs: Safer to run. Less rolling of holes means less hunters.
  • Industry: Getting materials in and out a lot more risky. Holes with HiSec statics will get stuff out just as easy as now, but getting stuff in will be different. Less Orcas and more cloaky transports. Holoe to hole travel with Orca and large Industrials will be riskier. There will be a lot more cloaking devices seen on such ships in order to perhaps get away.
  • Keeping fleet integrity when jumping through a hole will be tricky. Short range remote repping fleets will suffer and Logi fleets not really affected (logi wise).
  • (Mobile) bubbling of holes will be a more common sight as it will be a need to delay ships warping off. remember that the spawn distance from the hole means that the span is double that. If your tackler is 15 km from the hole and the spawn is opposite the range is 55 km.


So what will the effect be? More kills or less? Less I think. My reasoning here is that groups continuously rolling their will (if they still choose to do it) will have to spend more time doing it. Burning back to the hole will take longer and warping off and back might be quicker.

Rolling for smaller corps will be even harder. Larger corps can chuck more people at it and will suffer less.

Corps/Alliances specializing in industry/mining/PI will suffer a lot. The risk for them is substantially greater, especially getting stuff in from HiSec.


Now... Note that I've not said if these things are good or bad. I'm having a hard time making up my mind. It all hinges terribly much on what the spawn distances become in the end. If they are substantial the risk of not being able to jump back with a large ship can very well be balanced out by the spawn distance being so large that a warp or microjump is often a possibility.

Personally I'll go with my old way. Wait and see. And if I don't like what I see go from there. That said I'm quite a bit worried about CCP's methodology when implementing changes. They seem to me hap hazard and often based on a whim rather than experience. Seem, perhaps I am wrong.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#298 - 2014-08-04 03:01:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Angrod Losshelin wrote:
Have been reading for 15 pages now...I still see no valid or concise reason this is in any way a good idea. Provide numbers, like I have or make a valid point please. Some one explain why this isn't complete ****.

it keeps me from locking myself away from harm with 1 buzzard, 1 carrier, and 1 orca... which for me was 1/4 of my gang. which is what I've done with complete success through 6 months of farming (our corp lost some site teams, but those were not my characters and it never happened on my watch).

so your cap will land far from a hole. if you mean to continue traveling down a chain, it's good for you.

at some point you have to admit a change makes sense.

it's a popular opinion that some EVE game design is bad, and it might be so, but when a change is good you gotta give CCP credit where it's due. iterations are made for reasons and chances are those changes are an improvement. if you don't stop to consider the possibility, it means you're bandwagoning on the CCP smear train. and that kind of attitude only leads to missing out on a good thing.

saying that you see no valid reason means you're in denial. you see it, you just don't like it. as for concise reasons, current gameplay regarding wormhole mass seems clear enough from CCP, who has an interest in maintaining some secrecy.

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Servant's Lord
The Untraceable
M A R A K U G A
#299 - 2014-08-04 03:09:05 UTC
Crosspoast from another forum:

Quote:
As far as my (incredibly educated and somewhat relevent due to my eve situation) opinion goes - this is a GOOD change, but only if they slightly tweak what they have now.

I am all for making it harder to bear in wspace, and I am all for making committing capitals a srsbsns thing (you have no idea how much I ******* hate shitlers who intentionally crit holes or **** with their caps, or park their fleet on a WH with a cap ready to disengage and collapse hole the second they start losing).

What I am NOT for is punishing individuals for being ballsy and trying to commit caps to a WH.

The range is good in my opinion - near the edge of triage rep range from the hole @ 0.

One really important thing this mixes up in the meta is the typical jump into perfectly setup blapdreads optimal.

With your caps landing in a random direction 40k off, you can potentially land on the opposite side from setup dreads with your caps. This greatly helps triage in the meta, since you cannot currently use triage against competent Wspace alliances at present if they're in their home holes(and tbh u need proper shield nidhoggur or shield archon if you want to use it at all - armor triage archons eat **** and die so fast vs even a single dread + subcaps).

A side effect of this is further enforcing the fact that revelations are a bad joke, armor moros are utter ****, naglfars are stronk, and phoenix are magic that ain't noone understand or gotta explain. Close range dreads need to be properly fit to project damage at a minimum to 40k if u want to hit opposing caps @ jumpin if you're pre-setting up @0 on the hole. Anywhere else and you could end up further away.

What this DOESN'T help is the exact thing. Your capitals can land spread out 80k apart. This forces you to make a choice between one or the other, and removes the ability of friendly triage to potentially rep each other or dreads. This punishes individuals jumping into others' holes with anything more than a single cap, which is quite honestly stupid.

Fortunately, this is easily fixed - make the direction random only once. This way, hostiles cannot know where to setup to land you perfectly in optimal, yet, you still land at range.

Simply have your caps land in a 10k deviation, 40k off the hole. This way you can still deploy multiple caps and be confident in not having them be suicidally wasted jumping into hostiles for a fight.

Problem solved - carebear rolling is removed against active/proactive opponents, and while rage-rolling is slowed, it is not significantly impacted by these changes - in an empty WH its rather easy to get back on the hole in jump range within 30 seconds to a minute or so, tops.

I am very ok with these changes and, if CCP takes the slight tweak I outlined above, looking forward to them hitting TQ for some awesome fights. :)
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#300 - 2014-08-04 03:11:38 UTC
about the dread optimal: assuming the hostile gang is on the hole means they control the decision to collapse the hole and trap that dread. seems fair.

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