Wormholes

I live in a c1 black hole and I don't see this negatively affecting me in any way really. Infact I think it's great.

Stance: Against
I speak for my alliance roughly 150 toons strong. Please no, this would make rage rolling to find a hs or closing wh's to run in home sites needlessly difficult, as someone mentioned it would make us less likely to even put a cap through a hole for pvp. I know ccp likes to see ships destroyed to keep eve's industry gears turning, but in all honesty this will put the brakes on it. Half of my team honestly thought this was a joke, and one dude said something about needing to bludgeon someone. As it stands with new updates there are usually things that happen to wh's even when patchnotes make no mention of wh's being affected. Lets recap:
1. Use of enemy encounter surveilance system in wh's. (Broke wh's as you could set that up on a hole, and it would immediately announce in local whenever someone entered)
2. Wh's not dissapearing after expiring. (when trying to jump through an expired wh you were caught in a temporal rift and your ships image dissappeared. Only fix was to relog)
3. The wub-wub's. (Initiating warp to a hole would cause it to make an activation sound. Even if warp was canceled. This was actually hilarious as one toon could intimidate a few people camping a hole by repeatedly doing this, making them think a huge fleet was incomming)
So my point is, with many new big releases there are many glitches changes we need to deal with, lets not do this one. If anything I would say, lets open up for debate maybe sov in wh space... or fixing pos code? Please fix pos code before anything. I have been shot by my own pos before.. I've setup a TCU above my pos with a bunch of cans around it and a bubble as a bug-zapper. In the entire time I was out there setting it up, the pos didnt even try to lock me. I warped off and came back to see if it would pull me out of warp like I wanted.. and the pos shot me real quick.

Plenty you can do.

Cross jump leaving tackle on your side.
Safe log own dread on wormhole log on when they enter warp and cross jump with that.
Mass games.

The point about rage rolling isn't that it will be more dangerous because as you say you should have your full fleet with you. But will make it take longer and more tedious.

So what if it takes you more time to do it, i don't really think thats a concern. Should you really be able to do it that fast that you are able to roll into a dangerous entities home WH and roll away with not a thing they can do to you?

No. Just... No. If you want to make some changes to WH's, fine, but ASK US what we want, don't make an arbitrary and seemingly not-thought-out decision which breaks a fundamental way we all interact with our world.

I don't think this is a terrible idea in principal, but it needs a light touch.

Right now it's trivial for one guy with alts to collapse out holes for PVE, or to roll for a highsec chain. It's actually easier the higher class you go, which seems antithetical, C5 and up it's just 2 Orcas and any capital. It's actually harder for the minnows to do it (have fun collapsing 3b non capital holes)

So, in principal having to have a defensive fleet ready to protect a capital is logical, but the environment as it stands now often makes having to rage-roll to find fights a necessity. Making this process more cumbersome would be more annoying than it already is.

Also if this change goes through I'd implore you to consider excluding K-space to W-space holes from it, for the simple reason that people venture into WHs now from empire space because the risk is manageable. When you jump in you're in jump distance on the other side, making highsec camps all but pointless, and providing the wary with risk free reassurance.

It sounds like a minor distinction but right now if a bear jumps into low or null in a PVE ship and is unlucky enough to land on a camp their distance from the gate will probably mean they're screwed. The fact this doesn't happen in W-space is hugely significant and imo one of the best decisions CCP made with wormholes. "I can peek inside in total safety" vs "pot luck if you land in a camp and are screwed" is worlds apart risk profile wise.

Messing with current WH mechanics would be equivalent to messing with Gate travel. It is far too established of a game mechanic and as current is not broken in any way (people that think otherwise need to adjust their tactics)

IF

You wanted to do something fresh and exciting with WH's specifically I would suggest the following.

More Roaming WH's

Bear with me on this.

Imagine if you will something like a 4 bil mass WH that punched randomly from a C1 to a NS / LS (or any other class WH)

right now some C1ers are peeing a little.

But imagine, just for a little while. Those C1ers had an easy way to bring in Capitals (as opposed to building them) Now the C1ers have some Capital ships that arent "stupid precious" now they would be more willing to use them during another roaming WH lets say to a C2 but this WH is also large enough to allow capitals, suddenly we have C1 and C2 groups fighting with their Capitals, groups that normally wont bring capitals out except for invasion defenses.

You cant rage roll this WH's since their roaming so its not like your going to bring in 50 capitals to evict a C1,2,3,4 but you may bring a triage carrier with a support fleet to fight the locals, then leave closing it behind you. And if the locals aren't boring they would bring a fight since they would have Capitals too.

I live in a C2 If an enemy Capital showed up in my front lawn you would most certainly get my attention and a response.

Someone made a point (sorry forgot name) that currently rage rolling as an activity right now is one or two guys with the same couple of ship types doing the same thing over and over on total safety and confidence of well known mass mechanics while the rest of the corp is either asleep or playing World of Tanks or something until (if) something happens....

That doesn't seem odd to anyone in so-called dangerous space?

You really think you should have the right to safely roll away a hostile incoming Wh with perfect safety with your dread and Orca?

you really think people should be able to rage roll as it stands now with only a few people active while the rest sit on TS sperging about the other games they are activily playing while those few people SAFELY rage roll? Is that how it should be? LOL

You really think it should be ok that when skirmish's happen they are allowed to safely jump the subcap fleet then the dread home when the risk becomes to great for the fight they just entered into?

I really do think this would increase PVP and FORCED PVP not the near perfect safety it is done with current mechanics.

If you want to run away, sure. Stab your ships. Course that doesn't help with bubbles and infini-points. Otherwise, combat-fit your ships and surprise those who jump you. A couple of battleships fit correctly can absolutely destroy a small T3 gank fleet.

But if you really want to roll fast, particularly a 2 bil hole, use Orcas. I won't tell you how to do it, since we're obviously doing it wrong anyway. I will however disagree and say that there isn't a single "correct" way to do it. Although if you're rolling a hole and have no idea what's on the other side then I can agree that you'll be making a harsh payment one day.

What this change DOES mean is that Orcas won't be used anymore, and maybe not battleships for the smaller, risk-averse corps. Your Dread, Orca, Battleship holy trio in C5/C6 space also won't be used anymore unless you have a substantial fleet to back you up.


People will still collapse their system before they farm home sites. This change only modifies how long it takes to do that. The instant sigs on discovery scanner means they'll still know instantly when someone opens up into them, and since you jump a CovOps or cloaky T3 in first, and not the dreads or other combat ships, there's still no risk for the attacker who is coming to scout you. Meanwhile, you warp off grid as soon as you can after the sig spawns. Nothing changes.

The casual groups who aren't rage-rolling their statics won't suffer that much. My corp fits this description. We roll when we want a change, or if a new shift is coming on and we're low on numbers with an active group deeper in the chain. Sometimes we'll rage-roll our hisec to find something that isn't in Solitude (obviously incorrectly, as I have now learned).

The groups this will affect are the C5/C6 rage rolling corps. On one hand, it will possibly force groups like BU and QEX to scout beyond their static for activity, but why should CCP care that they do that unless CCP alts have been the victims of rage-rolling fleets. I may think it's amusing when these groups complain they can't find anything from just rage-rolling, but they have the absolute right to play this game the way they want (and to complain as much as they want). It's called a sandbox for a reason.

The changes hitting W-space have been a systematic effort to protect farming fleets, up to and including this change. That's all it is. I'm more convinced than ever that CCP doesn't consider W-space as a legitimate environment for groups to dwell and hunt, but only as "exploration" content that is a few notches harder than the sites you find in k-space. Why not finish it all, removing moons and removing wormholes originating in W-space.

One day these changes will be too much for an entire segment of your game's community, and W-space will just be nullsec farmers. And you guys will still probably have no clue what that W-space thing is.