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L4 Runner : Marauder ?
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Paranoid Loyd
#41 - 2014-08-02 00:38:54 UTC
You can't skip 9 out of 10 missions. You really haven't run any level 4s have you?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
NIFTYGetAtMe
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-08-02 00:45:53 UTC
9 out of 10 missions don't require a lot of maneuvering or super long range.
Paranoid Loyd
#43 - 2014-08-02 00:48:23 UTC
So then no, you dont run level 4s, please exit the conversation, as you dont know what you are talking about.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
NIFTYGetAtMe
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#44 - 2014-08-02 00:57:39 UTC  |  Edited by: NIFTYGetAtMe
Look man, the Golem is good for Caldari missions like I said. Serp/Guristas rats are naturally within Bastion range of Navy or Rage torps with a few exceptions that can be hit with Jav torps. Even when you get the odd Drone/Sansha/Angel mission, a lot of rats are in range and the ones that aren't can be pulled with a TP while you fire on a different group until they are in range.
Paranoid Loyd
#45 - 2014-08-02 01:04:43 UTC
Thank you for further proving you do not know what you are talking about.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Qalix
Long Jump.
#46 - 2014-08-02 02:28:39 UTC
Golem torp range on the previously posted torp golem with bastion active goes from 25km to 31km. Your post specified 30km, which is why I used that figure. So you and I both already accounted for the bastion range boost.

As for manuevering, open up eve survival and go down the L4 list. Find how many have gates or warp in points/structures/whatever and NPC spawn points at ranges around 30km. It's a short list. While you're doing that, note how many missions have enough BS present at one time and place to put pressure on the cookie cutter t2 raven's tank for long enough to empty its cap booster. The list will get a lot smaller. All of those can be handled by a T1 with an MJD and rudimentary range maintenance skills.

You can definitely use a golem to run L4s, but its a waste of ISK. Just like using officer mods and many faction/ded mods in L4s. In a horde or sanctum, where you can warp to zero and trigger everything in an orgasmic spray of torpedoes and the rats continually move into your field of fire, it totally makes sense and the finer points you bring up are totally valid. When you start talking about that sort of content, the calculation is time saved/isk-per-hour vs ISK sunk and you skip right past marauders to carriers. There are people who use marauders, but carriers with fighters or sentries and the variations on that theme are vastly superior to marauders at an equal price. They're also infinitely more useful than marauders.
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-08-02 03:35:38 UTC
Qalix wrote:
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:
If you show me a T1 BS able to deal 800 DPS @85km / 1400 DPS @ 35km, able to salvage on the go, I'm ok to say that the only thing a Marauder has that's better than a T1 BS is the tank. Good luck.

Challenge accepted.


Which challenge has been accepted ? Your fits doesn't salvage on the go, nor they're able to pull 1400 DPS @ 35km / 800 DPS @ 85km. Plus torp DPS, on a single target painted cruiser, is simply ridiculous. You'll be faster with an AF.

By the way, I don't care about the 'is the Marauder worth' debate. The question was clear, about choosing between a Vargur and a Kronos. Daniel Plain and Carniflex were the only one able to answer something intresting, with valid arguments. If you want to ask to the community if a Marauder is, or isn't better than a T1 BS, open a topic about it, quote this one, but keep things clear here, thanks.
Qalix
Long Jump.
#48 - 2014-08-02 16:19:07 UTC
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:
Which challenge has been accepted ? Your fits doesn't salvage on the go, nor they're able to pull 1400 DPS @ 35km / 800 DPS @ 85km. Plus torp DPS, on a single target painted cruiser, is simply ridiculous. You'll be faster with an AF.

By the way, I don't care about the 'is the Marauder worth' debate. The question was clear, about choosing between a Vargur and a Kronos. Daniel Plain and Carniflex were the only one able to answer something intresting, with valid arguments. If you want to ask to the community if a Marauder is, or isn't better than a T1 BS, open a topic about it, quote this one, but keep things clear here, thanks.

How dare anyone engage in a more general marauder conversation rather than answering your specific question as commanded!?

My fits put out the specified damage at the specified ranges (with a little rounding to account for the implants that aren't used in the post to keep it shorter). What numbers are you looking at? I also specified the use of an MTU (though bm'ing and salvaging on a second pass is just fine).

I chose the Raven line because it's a common PvE choice and would be relatable to many who read the thread. I could just as easily have done the Megathron and Tempest lines. All of the marauder ship lines have the exact same damage/ability progression through the line. Put the Mega and Tempest line of ships into EFT using 4 damage mods and max number of guns and you'll get the exact same profile. Of course there are variations on the progression of other ship abilities and strengths by faction. It's worth noting that the Navy Mega technically gets more paper DPS than the Kronos since it can use heavy drones and the Kronos can't.

As for your specific question, I think the Vargur is a better waste of money.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-08-02 17:02:02 UTC
"Challenge accepted! Here's something unrelated to the challenge! Pat my head now!" Lol Wow
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2014-08-02 17:05:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Triakis Cadelanne
Qalix wrote:

How dare anyone engage in a more general marauder conversation rather than answering your specific question as commanded!?


In fact I know I'll buy a Marauder for some reasons, and and I'm asking which one is better. So I don't see why people keep telling me "Marauders are bad, buy something else" as the choice of buying or not a Marauder is already done. By the way, I didn't mean to be agressive / rough, English isn't my native language and if I'm able to understand what people say, I may have some difficulties to express myself.

Qalix wrote:

My fits put out the specified damage at the specified ranges (with a little rounding to account for the implants that aren't used in the post to keep it shorter). What numbers are you looking at? I also specified the use of an MTU (though bm'ing and salvaging on a second pass is just fine).


You know that pure DPS, like the EFT value, is sometime way different than applied DPS. In this case, missiles doesn't apply as much DPS as gun, and it's even more true if you're shooting a cruiser. When I want to see how much of the DPS is effectively applied, I use Pyfa's graph (which has been used in some devblogs or CCP forum thread) or this tool :

http://eve.battleclinic.com/calculators.php#missile

Then, once again, the Marauder does not simply collect the wreck for a rapid salvage on a second go, it simply doesn't need a second go. Do you realize how much time you're loosing when you travel back to the station to pick your Noctis, salvage and go back to pick an other mission ? Put an MTU is way different than "salvage on the go". And even if you manage to fit salvagers, you won't have the cargo to loot & salvage most missions.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#51 - 2014-08-02 18:06:21 UTC
The navy typhoon is the highest on-paper damage missile platform in game. Well from these that you can buy off market that is. Have not looked what did they do to State Raven (if anything) but it's irrelevant anyway as there is very limited number of them left.

If you have already made your decision to buy marauder then Vargur, in my opinion, is a bit better than Kronos for lev 4 missions (unless you are going up specifically against rats with kin/therm weakness).

The comments on the lines of "buy this or that" are there because that if you indeed mainly intend to use it for lev 4 missions there are batter option for that at the price than marauders. Ofc its your isk so you are free to spend it on whatever you like.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Triakis Cadelanne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2014-08-02 18:24:51 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
The navy typhoon is the highest on-paper damage missile platform in game. Well from these that you can buy off market that is. Have not looked what did they do to State Raven (if anything) but it's irrelevant anyway as there is very limited number of them left.

If you have already made your decision to buy marauder then Vargur, in my opinion, is a bit better than Kronos for lev 4 missions (unless you are going up specifically against rats with kin/therm weakness).

The comments on the lines of "buy this or that" are there because that if you indeed mainly intend to use it for lev 4 missions there are batter option for that at the price than marauders. Ofc its your isk so you are free to spend it on whatever you like.


In fact I think I'll also buy a Machariel and test the difference between the two.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2014-08-03 00:38:41 UTC
With hte recent changes to loot and salvaging blitzing has moved from "usuually the best ISK/hour to "almost always the best ISK/hour"
Rexxorr
Perkone
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-08-03 19:23:24 UTC
Auto cannon Vargur with a MWD to close distance when needed. The maurauders can face tank god himself, Fly into the middle of the npc hordes and make wrecks for your salvage drones to feed apon, drop an mtu not because of its tractor but because it auto loots anything close , use your tractors to feed the mtu. I recommend Vargur over the Kronos.
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#55 - 2014-08-04 00:28:56 UTC
get an AC varg if you plan to move around a bit, choices in damage type is helpful. Carry a mobile depot with the long range guns and switch guns, damage, tank, webs, tp as needed.

... What next ??
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#56 - 2014-08-04 05:11:48 UTC
Here's how I do it;

[Vargur, Vargur 800mm]

Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Gist B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Domination 100MN Microwarpdrive
Large Micro Jump Drive
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field

800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet Fusion L
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Bastion Module I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Hobgoblin II x15


I don't even bother marauding with it. I use the MJD to jump into the fight instead of out. Bastion up, kill everything and repeat. Noctis alt for the cleanup. Nano in the low with the MWD for getting between gates quickly.

Just under 1100 gun DPS. 851 omnitank bursting to 1500 to 5 minutes with MWD on. Overheats to 1775 omni tank in bastion.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Qalix
Long Jump.
#57 - 2014-08-04 05:34:54 UTC
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:
Then, once again, the Marauder does not simply collect the wreck for a rapid salvage on a second go, it simply doesn't need a second go. Do you realize how much time you're loosing when you travel back to the station to pick your Noctis, salvage and go back to pick an other mission ? Put an MTU is way different than "salvage on the go". And even if you manage to fit salvagers, you won't have the cargo to loot & salvage most missions.

Whatever the value of the salvage, the LP is worth far more for your L4 calculations. Still, MTUs and dedicated salvagers are far more efficient than attempting to loot and salvage with a single missioner, tractor, and salvager on a marauder. You just can't match the speed of a dedicated noctis pilot, especially if the wrecks are all gathered in a pile and the loot in the MTU.

Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
"Challenge accepted! Here's something unrelated to the challenge! Pat my head now!" Lol Wow

Don't bother to read the rest though. Because off the cuff poasting is best poasting. All of the marauder lines work exaclty the same. Other than the specification for looting/salvaging, every marauder of every faction does no better than the T1 and faction lines in DPS. It's easy to see by just plugging it into EFT.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#58 - 2014-08-04 09:16:48 UTC
Rexxorr wrote:
Auto cannon Vargur with a MWD to close distance when needed. The maurauders can face tank god himself, Fly into the middle of the npc hordes and make wrecks for your salvage drones to feed apon, drop an mtu not because of its tractor but because it auto loots anything close , use your tractors to feed the mtu. I recommend Vargur over the Kronos.



Dont get too confident. I have seen hi sec lev 4 missions doing over 3000 dps and putting 6 points on you when you screw up. Hell, once I lost an alts Drake with proper hardeners to L4 rats with max skill Scimi boosting it with all it got. That is equivalent of running four XL T2 boosters locally.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2014-08-04 11:06:32 UTC
Qalix wrote:
Other than the specification for looting/salvaging,

The specification for looting and salvaging was the point though. Also the other ships get less projection or application or both. but again, try not to accept challenges and then try to claim the challenge isn't what it is, after the fact.

Also you put torps on ships that should never use torps in PVE, which is another problem.
Gorr Shakor
Shakor Freight and Mining Service
#60 - 2014-08-04 12:10:43 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
...Hell, once I lost an alts Drake with proper hardeners to L4 rats with max skill Scimi boosting it with all it got. That is equivalent of running four XL T2 boosters locally...


OT, but how did you manage that? Shocked