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Incursions

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Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#21 - 2011-12-08 12:20:13 UTC
StuRyan wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
xxanjoahir wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
well they nerf'd 0.0 grunt income one the whim of some idiot(yes you ccp greyscale), and effectivly made a lot of 0.0 worthless, its only fair they nerf empire incursions to the same level as empire mission running.

the isk/h for Vanguards is wrong and i dont mean a little wrong i mean ******* stupidly wrong. ill pointout at this point that i have actually run soem incursions and making 80-100mil an hour is nice and all, but that much in empire is plain wrong


Point taken and in reply:

People whose "end game" is not to play the game in null sec loose a massive chunk of income. Do they not have the right to make ISK and a reasonable fast pace? By that I mean these type of people may only play the game for a few hours..

People talk about risk versus reward - from a experience null sec pilot, you get yourself a quiet system and there is no risk.

The VG sites although are completed easily - they are still a lot harded than the rats you kill in null sec.

edit: and to complete them you require running a fleet with people you do not know. Isn't that the fundamentals of what eve is built on, the "sandbox"?



there shouldnt be that much isk avalible in high sec as easily as it is. thats the fundimental point, its not about end game its all about risk reward. there is no risk in running vanguards. if you want to fleet up with people you dont know, that is a seprate issue tbh. the inflation in the price of almost everything currently is caused by to much isk being pumpped out from incursions. its trillions of isk daily.
in 0.0 you get 1 guy in a system running anoms, he will make 20mil every 20mins. you get 10 people in that 1 system they will make less than 10mil every 20mins. in incursions you can have 60 people in the same system earning 10mil every 6-10mins. that is wrong. they should reduce the vg pay out by around 60% to bring it into line, lp can stay the same for all that matters.


There is more risk running incursions than there is running rats / anom sites in null sec if you want to achieve the 100m p/hour you speak of. It is only capable if you have invested already in a shiny ship and you are able to go from one site to the next as you complete them. That is not the case.. with most VG systems hitting more than 100 people, each site is attracting 3 fleets, every VG fleet is looking for the 2bil Mach, Bhaag, Vindi - i do not see people investing more than 200m in a ratting boat.... RISK versus REWARD right there.


i use billion isk ships in 0.0 and for incursions, you gotta max the isk/h after all. and tbh i make more in incrusions. if you are compeating that heavily for vg sites your doing it wrong. i run incursions for 4h on sunday, and between the 2 toons i had in the fleet i made 960mil. ran for a few hours the day before and hit 110mil/h. in 2 weeks of running less 4h a day i made around the 9bil mark all whiel being safe and risk free in highsec.
i will continue to milk the cash cow that is incursions, but for the good of this game, nubs making that much isk in high sec need to change.

OMG when can i get a pic here
Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#22 - 2011-12-08 12:47:10 UTC
Easy fix:
* only one hisec incursion active at a time
* less vanguard systems in hisec

thus the greatest bears can still farm vanguards with no risk, but hopefully there will be more competition and conflict among them because of scarcity. maybe some will even go to low sec (where the rewards are greater anyway).

i just locked an open door.. strange, yet symbolically compelling.
Gaitrie
MagmaTech Industries
#23 - 2011-12-08 12:56:34 UTC
I think they should leave it as it is. Currently there is 1 high sec incursion. Last night I was in a fleet (VG) and we had to compete for almost all sites. Once we had like 3 fleets in an OTA site.

Not everyone is able to run incursion all day long, some of use do have jobs and RL and when we wanne do incursions for maybe an hour or so we want to get a nice reward.

If one needs to change incursion, make it more dynamically. Or add some random ships that drop nice loot etc etc. One can make incursion alot more fun to play instead Deltole, Deltole, Deltole.

But what I have notied is that the incursion favor the Amarr space the most. I n the 4 weeks that I have been running incursions I have only seen 1 incursion in minmatar space, 2x gallente, 1x caldari and the rest in Amarr.

Mine is Bigger **than **Yours ! <<<
Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#24 - 2011-12-08 13:14:10 UTC
Gaitrie wrote:
But what I have notied is that the incursion favor the Amarr space the most

i'd wildly guess it's not favouritism but just probability at work - our glorious Empire controls around 40% of empire space after all and thus the vile master Kuvakei is most likely to pick a constellation of the Empire as a target :/

i just locked an open door.. strange, yet symbolically compelling.
StuRyan
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#25 - 2011-12-08 13:16:44 UTC
The situation in the current game is this.

People need ISK for conflict - Conflict is what
makes the economy spin.

The reasons why people run incursions these days is
because there is the perception that there is not enough
ways of creating ISK in null.

Forget the fact that there is an endless pit of ISK to be made
from moon mining - you do not even need to cap a moon that has
a resource to make isk, you are perfectly capable of making isk
via dead moons and buying the whole stuff off the market.

Remember the Anom nerf - up until that point incursions
were not on everyones "A" list for making ISK.

Instead of nerfing reward - Leave it and buff null sec (this
apparently is going to happen).

Giving people the ability to make ISK in high sec or low sec can
only be good for the game. lets be honest most of the ISK that
is created in null sec goes into the hands of the directors.

Those who aren't lucky enough to get on a moon or can not create
ISK quick enough to enjoy the finer arts of PVP, can now create isk.

By allowing people to make ISK you are able to fuel conflict without
the fuel you are back to where the game was 2 years ago where every
null sec entity was blue to each other.

Incursions are not bad for the game - they are, infact, giving people
who live in high sec the ability to make ISK.

A conventional VG Battleship and logi setup fleet will not make more than 50m/hour.
A Blinged up VG Battleship and logi setup fleet will make 100m/hour.

If the whole argument for nerf/removal of high sec incursions is based on risk
versus reward then the "I have a 2bil BS for incursion" is a risk and should not
be disregaurded as anything less.

To you people who make isk dual boxing - you can also do that in null sec, obviously
not as quick but why would you when you can turn 60m in a 100m ship.

Awoxers > Incursion griefers > mission griefers > Scam artists > high sec smart bombing BS

They are all part of the game and to me are not relevant to this argument other than to say
in a 100m/hour incursion fleet there is a lot of ISK on display all it takes it to spread fire,
have a logi dc or for that matter a logi to not rep you. Whats the risk in a sanctum? 160m drone Ishtar
that DCs? a awoxer? A nullified Tengu that bots all the sites 23 / 7....

At the end of the day you either play the game in High sec becuase you cant commit to the life in
null sec, or you can and do. Both game styles have advantages and disadvantages, the misconception that
there is no risk in high sec is void when mission runners are griefed, incursions are griefed.

Lastly, I will say again, CONFLICT is what makes eve run without it there is no game.

You make null sec profitable people will go there and then you will be back to square one which
is what is happening in high sec incursions right now - too much capacity for the resource.

Its a balancing act - right now high sec is interesting its fun and its good for the average user who
can not spend every day all day playing pixels. null sec is still blob warfare, nap trains, and
the perception that there is not enough ways to make ISK.
Xen0nn
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2011-12-08 13:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Xen0nn
The high sec vs. null sec discussion does not make much sense.

Null sec is a completely different play style, mostly you need to be in a Corp that holds SOV which in most cases requires you to be active in fleets, this is not everyone's game, and not everyone has time for this.

Some people like to play this game casually and High Sec simply provides better options for this.

I have been in 0 sec and Anoms are a joke compared to Incursions, and if you pay attention there is absolutely 0 risk in null sec.

An incursion fleet takes quite some effort, you have to find a fleet which can take a while some times, and if you're in one you have to hope you’re in a good one especially with a shiny ship.
TheBlueMonkey
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2011-12-08 13:22:34 UTC  |  Edited by: TheBlueMonkey
What do you do with the piles of isk you earn?
xxanjoahir
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2011-12-08 13:30:44 UTC
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
xxanjoahir wrote:
[quote=Smoking Blunts]
People whose "end game" is not to play the game in null sec


You're missing the point of eve.

Earning isk for the sake of making more isk is just straight out dull.
Losing it in interesting ways is where the fun's at.



Point taken - loosing ISK in interesting ways is the best way to play the game.... Im not running incursions for running sake - the isk goes on a ship to pvp...

other people run them to pay for the game....

others want a huge wallet to make up for what they don't have down below.....

Then i guess not only the model of Risk versus Reward comes to the discussion but also Time versus Reward model...And then the discussion of why should i pay for game that i can't really enjoy becuase it takes me weeks to save for a pvp ship with my game play...
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2011-12-08 13:32:11 UTC
Xen0nn wrote:
The high sec vs. null sec discussion does not make much sense.

It does make sense, because tons of people stopped running anoms in nullsec for isk, and went over to running incursions (and even L4's) instead when anoms were nerfed, robbing nullsec of people which is making nullsec look (and feel) even emptier than before.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
xxanjoahir
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2011-12-08 13:51:14 UTC  |  Edited by: xxanjoahir
Lord Zim wrote:
Xen0nn wrote:
The high sec vs. null sec discussion does not make much sense.

It does make sense, because tons of people stopped running anoms in nullsec for isk, and went over to running incursions (and even L4's) instead when anoms were nerfed, robbing nullsec of people which is making nullsec look (and feel) even emptier than before.


So that to me says those type of people are carebears and not the out-and-out null sec player.. Null sec shouldnt be a haven for ISK making.

May be a little understadning on Demographics may clear up as to who plays in null sec.

You get carebears where ever you play the game but to pigeon hole high sec against null sec doesn't make any sense...It is after all where YOU have decided to play the game.

The reason why I play in high sec is becuase I know when I sign in I can have fun straight away (or at least try).... I am not BOXED into a region and the corp I am with can make isk and go loose it in null sec against the BLOB machine....
Tore Vest
#31 - 2011-12-08 13:53:06 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Xen0nn wrote:
The high sec vs. null sec discussion does not make much sense.

It does make sense, because tons of people stopped running anoms in nullsec for isk, and went over to running incursions (and even L4's) instead when anoms were nerfed, robbing nullsec of people which is making nullsec look (and feel) even emptier than before.


Try to run a anoms in null now Blink
More ratts.... more loot.. more isk Bear

No troll.
Eru GoEller
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-12-08 13:57:50 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Xen0nn wrote:
The high sec vs. null sec discussion does not make much sense.

It does make sense, because tons of people stopped running anoms in nullsec for isk, and went over to running incursions (and even L4's) instead when anoms were nerfed, robbing nullsec of people which is making nullsec look (and feel) even emptier than before.


Does this mean it would be safe to say, there's actually not that much to be living in nullsec, other then running anoms to
keep people there?
And running anoms sounds like an repetitive task, almost mimicking what a carebear does.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2011-12-08 14:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Eru GoEller wrote:
Does this mean it would be safe to say, there's actually not that much to be living in nullsec, other then running anoms to keep people there?
And running anoms sounds like an repetitive task, almost mimicking what a carebear does.

I can't speak for others, but from my perspective, there's only 2 reasons to live in nullsec.

1) Shooting Edit: Inappropriate language removed, CCP Phantom folks in the face and take their space away.
2) PI.

I guess some might say mining is still a doable activity, even despite the gunmining done in the drone regions, and I suppose it's still more lucrative than ice mining, and I'm sure the newbies with just 1 char will be ratting it up in belts and anoms, but the instant you do a 1 PVP 1 moneymaker, you'll be dumb to not put the moneymaker in an L4 or incursions. Unless you're the market fuckery kind of guy, or invention kind of guy, or manufacturing kind of guy.

But yes, running anoms is exactly what a carebear does. I want more carebears to live in nullsec to make the empires in nullsec to seem less empty, preferably doing other things than just running anoms, but I'll take that as a first step. You got a problem with that?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2011-12-08 14:23:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
xxanjoahir wrote:
You get carebears where ever you play the game but to pigeon hole high sec against null sec doesn't make any sense...It is after all where YOU have decided to play the game.

The reason why I play in high sec is becuase I know when I sign in I can have fun straight away (or at least try).... I am not BOXED into a region and the corp I am with can make isk and go loose it in null sec against the BLOB machine....

Actually, the "pidgeon hole hisec vs nullsec" does make sense, because right now, the game mechanics actively encourage me to keep just PVP chars in nullsec, and all my moneymakers in hisec. I'd rather see nullsec be more independent of hisec to the point where it would make me MORE money to stay in nullsec than in hisec (it being riskier is one reason, nullsec appearing more populous being another, and this should probably be viewed as a more important reason).

How many times haven't you seen people whine about how much damn work it is these days to get even a single kill on a roam through 0.0? It isn't because we're ~so good~ at avoiding danger, or because it's ~so safe~ out there, it's because there's not a lot of people who are out doing belt ratting, anoms or mining, instead they mostly tend to stay docked while they play on their hisec alts. If they're logged in at all in their nullsec alts outside of FC-lead fleets, that is.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
xxanjoahir
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2011-12-08 14:55:19 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
xxanjoahir wrote:
Actually, the "pidgeon hole hisec vs nullsec" does make sense, because right now, the game mechanics actively encourage me to keep just PVP chars in nullsec, and all my moneymakers in hisec. I'd rather see nullsec be more independent of hisec to the point where it would make me MORE money to stay in nullsec than in hisec (it being riskier is one reason, nullsec appearing more populous being another, and probably a more important reason).

How many times haven't you seen people whine about how much damn work it is these days to get even a single kill on a roam through 0.0? It isn't because we're ~so good~ at avoiding danger, or because it's ~so safe~ out there, it's because there's not a lot of people who are out doing belt ratting, anoms or mining, instead they mostly tend to stay docked while they play on their hisec alts. If they're logged in at all in their nullsec alts outside of FC-lead fleets, that is. .


Surely thats an issue in null sec itself and nothing to do with high sec incursions. Poeple have come from null sec to make isk in high sec incursions...there is no doubt about that, will they now return to null sec with the anom buff?

Even when incursions occur in null sec or low sec no one goes.... NO ONE.... Not even the sov holding alliance goes to complete them...AND you complain about having no ways of making ISK depsite a site being on your door step?

I've highlighted this for a reason:

[quote] all my moneymakers are in hisec


Whats wrong with that? - Null sec should be for elite PVP players - who know how to PVP AND DEFO not for people who end up leaving the game becuase they can not afford to keep loosing the ships they just spend so long saving for....

"Use what you can afford to loose" -

That is why to me Null sec versus high sec is not valid.... What is the ideal null sec that CCP is after? It certainly isnt what they have at the moment but it's not to fill it up with people whose only argument to move there in the first place is ISK/Hour...
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2011-12-08 15:13:01 UTC
xxanjoahir wrote:
Surely thats an issue in null sec itself and nothing to do with high sec incursions. Poeple have come from null sec to make isk in high sec incursions...there is no doubt about that, will they now return to null sec with the anom buff?

I don't know if they've buffed them sufficiently, I don't do either because I find anoms just as exciting as shooting belt rats, and I don't do incursions because I **** pubbies in jita by doing market fuckery. I do PVP and PI in nullsec, outside of those activities I don't even undock. vOv

xxanjoahir wrote:
Even when incursions occur in null sec or low sec no one goes.... NO ONE.... Not even the sov holding alliance goes to complete them...AND you complain about having no ways of making ISK depsite a site being on your door step?

Last few times we've had incursions in our space, we have gone and dealt with it because it disrupts JBs. vOv

xxanjoahir wrote:
I've highlighted this for a reason:

Quote:
all my moneymakers are in hisec


Whats wrong with that? - Null sec should be for elite PVP players - who know how to PVP AND DEFO not for people who end up leaving the game becuase they can not afford to keep loosing the ships they just spend so long saving for....

"Use what you can afford to loose" -

That is why to me Null sec versus high sec is not valid.... What is the ideal null sec that CCP is after? It certainly isnt what they have at the moment but it's not to fill it up with people whose only argument to move there in the first place is ISK/Hour...

Where the **** do you get the idea that "nullsec should be for elite PVP players"? That's wrong on oh so many levels. Nullsec is where you make your own empire, and you can't have empires based on ~elite PVP~ only. You need carebears to make space feel like it's actually being lived in.

I don't see why this is such a hard concept to grasp, I want more people to be incentivized into living in nullsec instead of making money in hisec, despite the added danger, because that means that we have actually created ~a space empire~. Not just a place where we mainly do PI and moon mining, but actually a place where lots of people actually live.

And yes, that includes people whose only argument to move there in the first place is ISK/hour, who will whine like a ************ because he didn't keep an eye out on the intel channels and got caught by a roaming gang.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
xxanjoahir
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2011-12-08 15:40:17 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
xxanjoahir wrote:
Surely thats an issue in null sec itself and nothing to do with high sec incursions. Poeple have come from null sec to make isk in high sec incursions...there is no doubt about that, will they now return to null sec with the anom buff?

I don't know if they've buffed them sufficiently, I don't do either because I find anoms just as exciting as shooting belt rats, and I don't do incursions because I **** pubbies in jita by doing market fuckery. I do PVP and PI in nullsec, outside of those activities I don't even undock. vOv

xxanjoahir wrote:
Even when incursions occur in null sec or low sec no one goes.... NO ONE.... Not even the sov holding alliance goes to complete them...AND you complain about having no ways of making ISK depsite a site being on your door step?

Last few times we've had incursions in our space, we have gone and dealt with it because it disrupts JBs. vOv

xxanjoahir wrote:
I've highlighted this for a reason:

Quote:
all my moneymakers are in hisec


Whats wrong with that? - Null sec should be for elite PVP players - who know how to PVP AND DEFO not for people who end up leaving the game becuase they can not afford to keep loosing the ships they just spend so long saving for....

"Use what you can afford to loose" -

That is why to me Null sec versus high sec is not valid.... What is the ideal null sec that CCP is after? It certainly isnt what they have at the moment but it's not to fill it up with people whose only argument to move there in the first place is ISK/Hour...

Where the **** do you get the idea that "nullsec should be for elite PVP players"? That's wrong on oh so many levels. Nullsec is where you make your own empire, and you can't have empires based on ~elite PVP~ only. You need carebears to make space feel like it's actually being lived in.

I don't see why this is such a hard concept to grasp, I want more people to be incentivized into living in nullsec instead of making money in hisec, despite the added danger, because that means that we have actually created ~a space empire~. Not just a place where we mainly do PI and moon mining, but actually a place where lots of people actually live.

And yes, that includes people whose only argument to move there in the first place is ISK/hour, who will whine like a ************ because he didn't keep an eye out on the intel channels and got caught by a roaming gang.


Wasn't there a coalition of alliance that disbanded this year that provided the game play you seek?

Why do you think they didnt survive?
MR DEMOS
DKL Fringe Division
3 Jackals
#38 - 2011-12-08 15:41:15 UTC
No to Removal.. Yes to Isk Nerf for high sec Big smile 2 Cents added
Utrigas Hakaari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2011-12-08 16:13:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Utrigas Hakaari
Leave them - 2 high incursion sites with VG's are enough...

If people want to make null sec more lucrative thus more appealing - pop some of these up in null more frequently...

I agree with a lot of these arguements and can see both sides...personally there needs to be a change in perception...

null sec and high sec players are all here to have fun and to be able to play the game to its full potential regardless of their real life commitments.

Null sec is very time consuming on RL and should be designed in such a way that the more "active" players still enjoy what it has to offer.

Lifewise high sec tends to be less time consuming on RL and should be designed so the more "casual" players still enjoy what it has to offer.

To complete the circle both high sec and null sec should compliment each other so the game can be enjoyed by everyone...

I feel the current setup of incursions in high sec is good as it allows me to spend more time pvping once i have enough isk to afford ship (typically spend 8 hours a week on the game)...

If you want more people in null sec its an issue with the perception of living there and the #1 reason why people do not live there at the moment are a choice of two: "Can make more isk in high sec" - which in my opinion is dependant on capacity or "Sick of blob warfare", personally choice two is my sole reason for not living in null sec. and a thrid is i do not have the time to live in null sec and be wasted all the time by the blobs.

Corp is run on a nice relaxed nature of running incursions to make isk to pvp... Based out of high sec due to having no blues and wanting to PVP...This type of corp will not exist if you nerf incursions forcing us to look elsewhere for a more casual game play...Everyone wins - CCP win as they keep me paying, you "die hard null sec" players get a visit from me and my fleet and everyone ends up having fun...

You've gotta look at Null sec players and High sec players are two different types of gameplay.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#40 - 2011-12-08 16:20:42 UTC
There was a discussion of this in the mission and complexes forum.

Based on that discussion it appears you can make 170mil-250 mill per hour in high sec. (assuming a 2.5k return on lp)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=486605#post486605


I don't think the division should be between empire and null sec but between high sec and everywhere else.

No one has ever explained why its less risk to run an incursion in low sec than it is in null sec. If anything those who own sov where they are running incursions have much less risk than low sec and npc null sec.

I think high sec payouts should be nerfed - maybe no lp payout. Low sec and null sec should be treated equally.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815