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[Proposal] Merge Hack/Arc modules into PVP modules

Author
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#1 - 2014-07-31 00:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Bride
Please upvote if you like this idea.

Problem: PVE fits for exploration are unsuitable for PVP because you must "waste" slots on hack/archeology modules.

Solution: Merge hack/archeology functionality into existing PVP modules such as webs, scrams, TPs, TDs, etc.

Implementation: Simply remove hacking and archeology modules and instead move their functionality into existing PVP modules.
Skills affecting hacking and archeology could affect the migrated function.

Container to hack? Scram or TD it.
Container to analyze? Web or TP it.
Someone attacking you? Use all the mids.

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/

Black Canary Jnr
Higher Than Everest
#2 - 2014-07-31 13:35:56 UTC
Found your problem bro:

Princess Bride wrote:
Please upvote if you like this idea.

Problem: PVE fits for exploration are unsuitable for PVP because you must "waste" slots on hack/archeology modules.

Solution: Merge hack/archeology functionality into existing PVP modules such as webs, scrams, TPs, TDs, etc.

Implementation: Simply remove hacking and archeology modules and instead move their functionality into existing PVP modules.
Skills affecting hacking and archeology could affect the migrated function.

Container to hack? Scram or TD it.
Container to analyze? Web or TP it.
Someone attacking you? Use all the mids.

Iain Cariaba
#3 - 2014-07-31 19:15:39 UTC
Whoa, PvE content is part of PvP!?!?!

Dude, whatever you've been smoking, you need to share.
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#4 - 2014-08-01 04:09:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Bride
Forcing players attempting exploration to gimp their ships with hacking & archeology mods instead of a point/web does nothing but encourage the delineation between PVP players and PVE players. If they weren't forced into dropping points and webs for otherwise useless modules, most would still be easy kills for experienced PVPers. However, this change would allow experienced PVP players to fit for both exploration and PVP...on purpose...without losing ship functionality for PVP. This would enable people to explore when the PVP is slow, and PVP targets of opportunity when they present themselves during exploration

There is no real point to insisting that people gimp their ships before exploring. Anyone should be able to fly a T1 frigate into an exploration site and if another T1 frigate shows up and wants to fight, be able to actually bring a "good fight" instead of running away or just dying.

Why should be there PVP-only and PVE-only mods at all?

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/

Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#5 - 2014-08-01 04:43:57 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
Why should be there PVP-only and PVE-only mods at all?

Because PVP and PVE are inherently different things and ~choices~ and ~consequences~.

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword

Howen
Sp4ce T3ch
#6 - 2014-08-01 10:21:57 UTC
Lykouleon wrote:
Princess Bride wrote:
Why should be there PVP-only and PVE-only mods at all?

Because PVP and PVE are inherently different things and ~choices~ and ~consequences~.


Little goon is scared of 1 little web and scram?
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#7 - 2014-08-02 19:56:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Bride
Lykouleon wrote:
Princess Bride wrote:
Why should be there PVP-only and PVE-only mods at all?

Because PVP and PVE are inherently different things...


What about FW?

CCP wants people to move out of high sec and try low and null. Baiting them out there with PVE is a good idea. FW accomplishes this but if we want to go exploring, we must gimp our ships to PVP-fail level before going into what is basically a "PVP zone". It sends a mixed message. "Come to the PVP zones for the exploration PVE! (But first, gimp your ship's PVP effectiveness so that you won't stand a chance in a 1 on 1 fight against the same hull.)"

To participate in Exploration in something other than a T3 outside of high sec we can only bring "victim" fail-fits? Pass.

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/

Dark Drifter
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#8 - 2014-08-03 03:47:37 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
Forcing players attempting exploration to gimp their ships with hacking & archeology mods instead of a point/web does nothing but encourage the delineation between PVP players and PVE players. If they weren't forced into dropping points and webs for otherwise useless modules, most would still be easy kills for experienced PVPers. However, this change would allow experienced PVP players to fit for both exploration and PVP...on purpose...without losing ship functionality for PVP. This would enable people to explore when the PVP is slow, and PVP targets of opportunity when they present themselves during exploration

There is no real point to insisting that people gimp their ships before exploring. Anyone should be able to fly a T1 frigate into an exploration site and if another T1 frigate shows up and wants to fight, be able to actually bring a "good fight" instead of running away or just dying.

Why should be there PVP-only and PVE-only mods at all?


my SOE frig is a beast in PVP and it has the ability to hack/scan. i dont consider it gimped and nore do the people that thaught they had an easy kill...

at the end of the day if you want the loot in the ARC/DATA can then go fitted for it. also mobile fitting hanger is your friend
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#9 - 2014-08-03 18:13:43 UTC
Dark Drifter wrote:
Princess Bride wrote:
Forcing players attempting exploration to gimp their ships with hacking & archeology mods instead of a point/web does nothing but encourage the delineation between PVP players and PVE players. If they weren't forced into dropping points and webs for otherwise useless modules, most would still be easy kills for experienced PVPers. However, this change would allow experienced PVP players to fit for both exploration and PVP...on purpose...without losing ship functionality for PVP. This would enable people to explore when the PVP is slow, and PVP targets of opportunity when they present themselves during exploration

There is no real point to insisting that people gimp their ships before exploring. Anyone should be able to fly a T1 frigate into an exploration site and if another T1 frigate shows up and wants to fight, be able to actually bring a "good fight" instead of running away or just dying.

Why should be there PVP-only and PVE-only mods at all?


my SOE frig is a beast in PVP and it has the ability to hack/scan. i dont consider it gimped and nore do the people that thaught they had an easy kill...

at the end of the day if you want the loot in the ARC/DATA can then go fitted for it. also mobile fitting hanger is your friend


First, pirate frig. So much for exploration with a realistic PVP fit in a T1 frigate. Isn't exploration supposed to be new player friendly?

Second, mobile fitting hangar as an answer KILLS the idea of a fast-paced game. "Oh, a frigate on d-scan, landing on grid... Take the fight in seconds? Nope. I'll go refit, and hope this frigate is still on grid in a few minutes." *YAWN*

Your work-arounds are A) Buying a pirate faction frigate hull for 85 million ISK, and gimping it, but it can still (shockingly) beat 1 million ISK T1 frigs, even when gimped or B) losing fight opportunities to go refit. How are either of your alternatives to my suggestion better for the game?

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#10 - 2014-08-04 09:53:39 UTC
If you are fitting a ship to do exploration and also want to PvP, then just fit it for PvP, replace the scram with your chosen exploration modules an huzzah, you are ready to go. Sure, they will be able to warp away, but then that's the price you pay for also being able to PvE with the same build.

And exploration IS new player friendly. Exploration while dual fit to run competent PvP is not so new player friendly.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Princess Bride
SharkNado
#11 - 2014-08-04 15:27:38 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
If you are fitting a ship to do exploration and also want to PvP, then just fit it for PvP, replace the scram with your chosen exploration modules an huzzah, you are ready to go. Sure, they will be able to warp away, but then that's the price you pay for also being able to PvE with the same build.

And exploration IS new player friendly. Exploration while dual fit to run competent PvP is not so new player friendly.


A scram or point/web does more in a fight than just ensuring the other party does not warp away. For most frigate fights, range dictation is critical. Giving up range dictation means the chances of a win are extremely low, and as you said, even if things do still go your way, the enemy can just warp off. So you have little to no chances of winning the DPS race, and even if you do, you won't get the kill. That is nothing to huzzah about in my book.

Extra modules that gimp your ship's PVP ability are not required for FW site farming. And FW is the most successful mix of PVP and PVE in the game. Why should they be required for exploration? CCP should do away with PVP-useless mids and fold them into either the ship hull attributes or into PVP mids. For some reason this game feels we should offer ourselves up as hobbled sheep if we want to explore outside of high sec.

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#12 - 2014-08-04 16:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Princess Bride wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
If you are fitting a ship to do exploration and also want to PvP, then just fit it for PvP, replace the scram with your chosen exploration modules an huzzah, you are ready to go. Sure, they will be able to warp away, but then that's the price you pay for also being able to PvE with the same build.

And exploration IS new player friendly. Exploration while dual fit to run competent PvP is not so new player friendly.


A scram or point/web does more in a fight than just ensuring the other party does not warp away. For most frigate fights, range dictation is critical. Giving up range dictation means the chances of a win are extremely low, and as you said, even if things do still go your way, the enemy can just warp off. So you have little to no chances of winning the DPS race, and even if you do, you won't get the kill. That is nothing to huzzah about in my book.

Extra modules that gimp your ship's PVP ability are not required for FW site farming. And FW is the most successful mix of PVP and PVE in the game. Why should they be required for exploration? CCP should do away with PVP-useless mids and fold them into either the ship hull attributes or into PVP mids. For some reason this game feels we should offer ourselves up as hobbled sheep if we want to explore outside of high sec.
Because exploration isn't PvP. Why can't fleets of exhumers strip mine the hull off of aggressors? In this game you have to make choices when you fit your ship. If you want something fully competent in PvP, then do PvP. If you want to do PvE as well, then you have to accept that you have to make decisions that will reduce your PvP effectiveness. It doesn't mean you wont win any fight if you need to, but it means you won't be able to leap into any battle with the same level of readiness.

Choice is a good thing to have, and we shouldn't take that away by creating more ways for people to do everything at once.

EDIT: And 1 module off the mids isn't making you "hobbled sheep". It makes you less effective, sure, but it certainly doesn't make you defenseless.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Princess Bride
SharkNado
#13 - 2014-08-05 00:13:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Bride
Lucas Kell wrote:
Princess Bride wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
If you are fitting a ship to do exploration and also want to PvP, then just fit it for PvP, replace the scram with your chosen exploration modules an huzzah, you are ready to go. Sure, they will be able to warp away, but then that's the price you pay for also being able to PvE with the same build.

And exploration IS new player friendly. Exploration while dual fit to run competent PvP is not so new player friendly.


A scram or point/web does more in a fight than just ensuring the other party does not warp away. For most frigate fights, range dictation is critical. Giving up range dictation means the chances of a win are extremely low, and as you said, even if things do still go your way, the enemy can just warp off. So you have little to no chances of winning the DPS race, and even if you do, you won't get the kill. That is nothing to huzzah about in my book.

Extra modules that gimp your ship's PVP ability are not required for FW site farming. And FW is the most successful mix of PVP and PVE in the game. Why should they be required for exploration? CCP should do away with PVP-useless mids and fold them into either the ship hull attributes or into PVP mids. For some reason this game feels we should offer ourselves up as hobbled sheep if we want to explore outside of high sec.


Because exploration isn't PvP.


I disagree wholeheartedly. Exploration in low sec and null sec is PVP because jumping a ship into low or null is PVP. Even if your only goal is to avoid getting shot down by other players it's still PVP. Technically, just undocking in high sec is PVP as well.

Quote:
Why can't fleets of exhumers strip mine the hull off of aggressors?


You can have a large mining op with multiple ships, which implies multiple pilots, which means some of those players could be tasked with security. However, exploration is a solo activity. Bringing 2 ships in and splitting the (already minimal) loot between two pilots would be unrealistic. Does anyone do this? Requiring a pirate frig at an absolute minimum to protect yourself from even a single PVP-fit T1 frigate is exclusionary, and screws with the ISK/reward ratio. Right now, newer players wishing to venture into low or null for exploration face two choices: 1) Fly more than they can afford to lose or; 2) Bring a ship that literally any properly fit solo T1 frigate should be able to trounce.

If CCP wants new players to have fun and go exploring in low/null then they shouldn't require them to gimp their frigate before heading into "Dangerous Territory." Isn't that exactly when you want to arm up? Instead, they strip down, and put on a module that serves no purpose toward a ship's defensive or offensive capabilities. Isn't it enough of a disadvantage to have them distracted by the hacking mini-game and having to haul a probe scanner? Do we really need to strip them of 1, 2, or even 3 mid-slots (data analyzer, relic analyzer, cargo scanner) on top of that as the price of admission for engaging in exploration?

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/

Drachen Protectorate
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#14 - 2014-08-05 07:47:52 UTC
Basically, what you want to do is have two advantages on the ship for no disadvantage.

You want to be viable in PvP.
You want to be able to do exploration sites.

Seriously? Dude, give it a rest. You want to do exploration sites as an alternative money source? Fine, that means you'll gimp your pvp fit as opposed to people having un-gimped fits which doesn't allow them to earn isk via exploration.
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#15 - 2014-08-09 22:03:36 UTC
Drachen Protectorate wrote:
Basically, what you want to do is have two advantages on the ship for no disadvantage.

You want to be viable in PvP.
You want to be able to do exploration sites.

Seriously? Dude, give it a rest. You want to do exploration sites as an alternative money source? Fine, that means you'll gimp your pvp fit as opposed to people having un-gimped fits which doesn't allow them to earn isk via exploration.


The disadvantages of engaging in exploration include being required to fit a probe launcher, data analyzer, relic analyzer, and cargo scanner. This proposal would free up 2 mids out of the 3 mids and 1 high currently required. So it hardly removes all disadvantages from exploration in terms of slot usage. If you want to do it in low or null, then it is also relevant that you are required to be unaligned, in a hostile PVP zone while engaging in a mini-game. Ghost sites are a good step toward reducing the overhead of modules required by allowing data OR relic analyzers. My proposal simply goes one step further and lets explorers keep an effective PVP fit while exploring in "dangerous space".

I have to wonder if those arguing against it are really just afraid of seeing their supply of kb padding ****fit explorers armed with a point.

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#16 - 2014-08-11 10:19:40 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
I disagree wholeheartedly. Exploration in low sec and null sec is PVP because jumping a ship into low or null is PVP. Even if your only goal is to avoid getting shot down by other players it's still PVP. Technically, just undocking in high sec is PVP as well.
So why can't every non-pvp module double up as a PvP module? Why is exploration so special that you want to have 2 specialties at once?

Princess Bride wrote:
You can have a large mining op with multiple ships, which implies multiple pilots, which means some of those players could be tasked with security. However, exploration is a solo activity. Bringing 2 ships in and splitting the (already minimal) loot between two pilots would be unrealistic.
Oh I see, so miners should have to split their loot, but exploration pilots should be able to do everything solo? I don't really see why. If you are an exploration pilot solo, then you can run away from combat, nothing stopping you doing that. But you don't want that, you want to explore, then suddenly be PvP fit if someone shows up. I honestly don't understand how you can't see why this is heavily biased.

Princess Bride wrote:
Right now, newer players wishing to venture into low or null for exploration face two choices: 1) Fly more than they can afford to lose or; 2) Bring a ship that literally any properly fit solo T1 frigate should be able to trounce.
Or 3. Evade combat. If you are there for PvE, you aren't there to PvP.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#17 - 2014-08-11 10:27:05 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
The disadvantages of engaging in exploration include being required to fit a probe launcher, data analyzer, relic analyzer, and cargo scanner. This proposal would free up 2 mids out of the 3 mids and 1 high currently required. So it hardly removes all disadvantages from exploration in terms of slot usage. If you want to do it in low or null, then it is also relevant that you are required to be unaligned, in a hostile PVP zone while engaging in a mini-game. Ghost sites are a good step toward reducing the overhead of modules required by allowing data OR relic analyzers. My proposal simply goes one step further and lets explorers keep an effective PVP fit while exploring in "dangerous space".
First off, a cargo scanner isn't required. It's a choice. Secondly, most exploration ships have an extra high for a probe scanner specifically, so you didn't lose anything. Thirdly, you are stating relic and data analysers, so you are talking about a dual exploration fit, for exploring both types of site. So you want to be able to fit for both types of exploration AND you want to be viable in PvP.

No. Make your choices and live with those consequences.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.