Skill Discussions

I read the blog and I read most of this thread.

I like the OP's idea's and the discussion is thoroughly dissected to obtain maximum proof of validity.


I'd just like to offer my own peculiar take on the skill issue.

I've been training up to use my domi recently and I hit the minimum requirements mark sometime last week. Regardless, I haven't taken it out yet, opting to maintain the safe and sturdy brutix for level 3's instead. For me the obvious deterrence is the potential loss of a ship I could barely afford in the first place.

Lately I've been skilling up peripheral skills that play into the mastery system both for the domi and other ships in my arsenal - I've been choosing skills that are both integral in the mastery system, but also useful for my style of play. The purpose is to try to achieve mastery III in all ships in my arsenal while providing the maximum benefit per day of skill training for the ship I'm using currently.

The single biggest annoyance I've come across are exactly what the OP suggests: time taxes to impede progression that don't impart a valuable modifier to change game play (or in the case directly referenced by OP that the skill comes as a lump benefit when you finally hit min reqs on a new ship). Either way, the problem comes down to new players having to spend a long time investing in skills that play no important role for what they are currently flying.

I'd like to see less of these huge multipliers and more smaller skills that impart a factored down modifier so that skill completion imparts an instantaneous increase in skill that can further be noticed via the mastery trees. The OP's ideas make perfect sense, remove the minimum requirements, and make the mastery system be the determining factor in progression, and perhaps it even makes the most sense to tie the ship bonuses to the mastery system.

mastery 1 => bonus level 1 +ship operation
mastery 2 => bonus level 2
etc.
which would clearly make the bonuses more difficult to achieve but would make it a lot easier to get into operation of a ship.

o/

As for Ronnie's idea I find the Mastery system very "inaccurate" if you want to see a direct impact to the performance. Not saying its a bad idea, just saying if CCP were to go that route I would pray for an overhaul of the Mastery system.

I'm at work at the moment so I don't have many tools or time but I'm curious what the performance to time spent training ratio would be under both systems, current and mastery. I get the feeling even new players would prefer to train the racial ship skill to 5 rather than everything under the Mastery list to get the full bonus. Even getting to Mastery III would take much longer I'm sure.

Again..not against the idea, just think the Mastery system would need an overhaul.

yeah, a fully skilled level V golem shows a fairly consistent 20% improvement in attributes across the board, with and without practical fits. the best way to have a 80% golem is fly a raven or navy raven with level IV skills across the board (with the exception of perhaps T2 missiles)

Yes the OP suggests removing the level 5 skill requirement for T2 ships

Ok

The answer remains:
It is a meaningful decision to decide to specialize in your first T2 ship
As you get older, each additional ship is marginally less of a meaningful choice
Eventually you become a bittervet

I stand by my recommendation of training (new) characters for the bazaar if you run out of things that you want to train

I'm against your idea on principle. I had to do it the long way so so should you (bittervet attitude). Now we discuss the level 5 requirement for ships, tomorrow we discuss it for turrets and this just opens the floodgates for any other item in the game that has a level 5 requirement.

That said, I do understand that SP barriers can be a bit of a hassle and traditionally they've always been a hot topic. I'm all for getting new players to their goals sooner but I don't think that making t2 ships easier to obtain is the way to do it. The real barrier new players have here is ISK, and being able to replace possible losses. You can get stuff like frigates 5 in a week, cruisers 5 in just over 2 weeks. It's really not that long. Considering a fair amount of people have characters that are years old, it's just a tiny drop in the ocean.

On the other hand, I agree with the point you make about having for example cruisers 5 be a requirement for HACs and then have a cruiser skill bonus on HACs to compliment that. Every character that can fly HACs will have the skill at 5 anyway, might as well just make the cruiser skill bonus a ship role bonus instead.

Ilshira is correct. Anyone willing to put up 1.2 billion for a T2/3 cruiser/bs is better off doubling the amount of cash dedicated and head over to the bazaar.

Its a much better investment to pay 7b for a T3 character than 7b for a T3 ship...

Now that we can all agree simply removing the requirement is a bad idea let's focus on solutions eh?

You can't make every skill race specific. First you bring up the issue of skill barriers and then you wish to introduce a system where literally all veteran plays will get like free 20m sp. What will a new pilot do then; when he wishes to swap from Amarr to Caldari? Redo all his support skills? :x

Although I agree with what you're saying that a skill barrier for the sake of it taking time, isn't the greatest thing. On the other hand; not a single good alternative has been brought up instead.

It takes 90 days for a Marauder and 110 days for a Black Ops because of the large amount of different skills required to operate these ships. Not to mention that these are very task specific and highly specialized ships in the first place. Aside from your wishes and needs as a player; it makes perfect sense in the EVE "lore". Your character needs time to learn the basics of flying a Battleship; before it can hop in to a specialized one. Now if they should be available at skill level 4 is another debate. Personally; I think yes. These are highly specialized tech 2 ships.

I really do see your point though and as a recently rerolled character myself, sure thing; it can take some time to train those skills. At the other hand; these are milestones. These are achievements for your character. Training BS5 is just one of those.

yes, Pinkie. train the other race's skills. It would bloat the SP total for existing players, but don't get stuck on the number. the list of ships they can fly remains unchanged. medical clone costs increase as a result, but that can be adjusted.

I could launch a completely different one-sided threadnought on medical clone costs. as an ISK sink, they prevent several other ISK sinks. They're bad for all the reasons that loss is good.

also: please define "can't" in the sense that you use the word. you say they "can't" be race specific, but actually... they can.


the hard time barrier is one thing that can only be explained by CCP directly, and without an answer from them, trying to figure out the reason is basically an attempt at reading their mind.

as for "good" alternatives... I'm ok with your opinion. you're allowed to have one. but I hope you realize you've terminated a thought process with that opinion.


false. it takes that long due to 4 skills that could be optional: Spaceship command V, Energy Grid Upgrades V, Weapon Upgrades V and Advanced Weapon Upgrades V. in terms of their usefulness after being completed, minimum requirements are awkward, and unnatural... (the last two are a great example of how requirements are bad: WU and AWU affect two different things, but are linked as if they're a continuation of the same attribute.)

If there's a player behavior that justifies the time requirement (that we are not privy to), that's fine, but if the reason for it is not a matter of ship balance, it shouldn't be treated like one. The time tax is not justified by the skills that compose it.


Do you? Racial BS V is kinda OK. it's the non-racial skills that cause stagnation by affecting too many ships at once. Even the venerable, all-important "because specialization" T2 ship skills (benefit 4 races of ships).

I can relate with a story. I'm currently curating a few characters that are nearly 200 million SP, one of them within a few weeks. the owner is one of my mentors from when i started playing. after training characters with perfect skills in every role he could want, he decided to let them go inactive indefinitely. I was able to convince him to transfer them to me, so that I could keep them training in the meantime. When nothing changed except for the fact that he had everything he needed, finally, I have to wonder if the lack of the skill queue goal is the true reason for his hiatus. As silly as it seems to those who don't know what it's like to have true god toons, I suspect many people stay just for being strung along with the next skill queue goal.

---

also, congratulations on joining the 200 million SP club. I would join you, but i'm not really free to do whatever I want with these god toons, and I try not to post with them. he says he doesn't care, but I'm keeping them 'pristine' to entice him to return. I'd love to have him back.

when you've trained everything, I imagine the basic feeling is that you've won EVE, and I can't think of a better claim for it. ISK isn't the same thing... even with trillions you can still get more. but with every skill you train, the list of useful skills only gets shorter.

people are hitting the SP maximum now, and it's not the legend it used to be. not the 25 year goal of everything, but the more realistic list of skills that matter (and won't get you labeled as a carebear).

splitting skills isn't a permanent fix to stagnation, and it doesn't help people who already have everything trained... but the sooner it's done, fewer people will hit the useful SP limit. and fyi the idea of a skill split makes sense in my mind, but it also seems crazy. I just can't think of another (even remotely) effective way to address it.

ideas?

I'll start: prestige mode

that was a joke, but some sort of permanent advantage upon reset is actually a decent concept. (say, at 200 million SP. can everyone agree that a character with 200 million SP has earned some type of prestige benefit... lol)

prestige rewards for resetting at various SP amounts. (50 mil, 75 mil, 100 mil etc)... just riffing here: faster training time modifier, free NPC skillbooks forever, free / automatic medical clones, medical clone standings at all NPC stations, faction standings immunity from Navies.

(it turns out prestige mode has been around as an idea already. notbad.jpg)