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Command ships
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#61 - 2014-07-29 16:43:29 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Your ship fit is nutty. Your need for maxed out implants to fly your nutty ship is nutty.

If you actually built that mess and actually jump into that clone to fly said mess.... you remind me of an acorn.

Your personal recovery plan:
1. Delete EFT and don't re download it for 4 months (you will survive)
2. Run a few missions in a maelstrom (see.... you don't NEED all that crap)
3. Stop hanging out w/ the max/min ninnies that blitz incursions
4. Have some fun

And again you missed the point, is it endemic, or just apathetic, it is a Theoretical fit to Demonstrate how you get 1000dps and a 6k tank as requested.

And your remarks strike me as someone that still struggles in the game, with an attitude of 'If I can't afford it then it must be a waste' but I digress.

key words here to help with your next post;
Theoretical
Demonstrate


Your prescription;
Uninstall EVE and go play Solitaire, then you can finally achieve your dream of being the smartest guy in the game.



I would like to apolgize. I just checked your kb. I didn't understand who/what I was dealing with. It's my fault - I should have checked first. Sorry.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#62 - 2014-07-29 17:18:25 UTC
Those T3s...

Oh god.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#63 - 2014-07-29 17:57:34 UTC
So?

What does any of that have to do with whether or not to train command ships, or how to get a 6k tank, or for that matter what do any of your posts have to do with the OP's request, or any subsequent topic brought up.

Riot Girl you have never flown the ship in topic, and Serendipity you seem to be stuck on a repeating loop of disinterest and disbelief, perhaps both of you should actually try playing Eve-Online rather than Forum trolls online.

And really what imbecile post in these forums with a PVP toon? Nothing better than waiting to get trolled and second guessed for every action you took in the last 5 years by an amateur forum panel. Get a grip and try a better angle for discussing a topic, perhaps actually reading the topic might help.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#64 - 2014-07-29 17:59:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
No no, I saw the Sleipnir too. Very blingy, but maybe you should try filling all the mids next time.
Edit; and yeah, I haven't flown CSes. I don't see the point, that's kind of what I've been saying...

Oh god.
NIFTYGetAtMe
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#65 - 2014-07-29 18:36:41 UTC
You asked about the Nighthawk? Well aside from pvp it's very good for pve. It's essentially a marginally worse Tengu. You fit them basically the same way: Resist Kinetic, dual deadspace small booster, an afterburner, and HAMs or HMLs depending on your preference. The only difference is the Nighthawk really needs a Pith/Gistii A-Type combo to be cap stable and effective rather than a Pith/Pith or Gistii/Gistii combo that you can pull off with a Tengu. That's of course for level 4's. The NH is quite good for level 5's, as it has a famous passive shield tank, but the dps on the proper fit is terrible.
Sarojan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-07-29 20:08:09 UTC
NIFTYGetAtMe wrote:
You asked about the Nighthawk? Well aside from pvp it's very good for pve. It's essentially a marginally worse Tengu. You fit them basically the same way: Resist Kinetic, dual deadspace small booster, an afterburner, and HAMs or HMLs depending on your preference. The only difference is the Nighthawk really needs a Pith/Gistii A-Type combo to be cap stable and effective rather than a Pith/Pith or Gistii/Gistii combo that you can pull off with a Tengu. That's of course for level 4's. The NH is quite good for level 5's, as it has a famous passive shield tank, but the dps on the proper fit is terrible.


Newbie questions here:

1) why 2 small shield boosters and not 1 medium sheildbooster? thats an extra midslot.
2) pithi/pithi or githi/githi are better then a pithi/githi? why? my eft shows pithi do more repairing but cost more cap. why would splitting between the 2 be bad?
3) does what you said also apply to vulture and Astarte?
NIFTYGetAtMe
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#67 - 2014-07-29 20:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: NIFTYGetAtMe
Sarojan wrote:
NIFTYGetAtMe wrote:
You asked about the Nighthawk? Well aside from pvp it's very good for pve. It's essentially a marginally worse Tengu. You fit them basically the same way: Resist Kinetic, dual deadspace small booster, an afterburner, and HAMs or HMLs depending on your preference. The only difference is the Nighthawk really needs a Pith/Gistii A-Type combo to be cap stable and effective rather than a Pith/Pith or Gistii/Gistii combo that you can pull off with a Tengu. That's of course for level 4's. The NH is quite good for level 5's, as it has a famous passive shield tank, but the dps on the proper fit is terrible.


Newbie questions here:

1) why 2 small shield boosters and not 1 medium sheildbooster? thats an extra midslot.
2) pithi/pithi or githi/githi are better then a pithi/githi? why? my eft shows pithi do more repairing but cost more cap. why would splitting between the 2 be bad?
3) does what you said also apply to vulture and Astarte?

Much higher cap life. 2 small shield boosters is a popular method for tanking lvl 4's in Tengu's. It so happens that the concept also works to some extent with the Nighthawk.

Pithi/Pithi is a higher tank with more cap penalty, gistii/gistii is less tank with less cap penalty. The Tengu has sufficient resists to get away with Gistii/Gistii if you want, and sufficient cap to use Pithii/Pithii if you want. The Nighthawk does not. Gistii/Gistii IMO does not provide the raw tank a NH needs, and Pithii/Pithii does not give it a desirable cap life. I've found that Pithii/Gistii gives the NH optimal balance between cap stability and necessary tank.

No, those 2 ships use Hybrid guns which require capacitor to use. Cap life would be an issue unless you completely gimp the tank.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2014-07-30 03:49:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
Xequecal wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Command ships are borderline overpowered right now, the drawback is that regular T1 battlecruisers are garbage ATM so you'll be training skills for a long time before you see any benefit.



If they were overpowered you would see them being used a lot more on small scale combat. But they are very rare on that because T3 are better most of the time and cost just a tad more.


Can't put a MMJD on a T3.

I'm still maintaining the non-use of Command Ships is because of the skill training time, and because all of the CS prerequisite skills are pretty much worthless on their own. You can get into a T3 in like a third of the time. In addition, Cruiser V is very useful as Eve is pretty much Cruisers Online right now, BC V doesn't do **** for your character on its own as the T1 battlecruisers are pretty much relegated to suicide ganking duty and nothing else. The Sleipnir and Eos are absolutely nuts in small gang combat, T3s don't even come close.

Well I got into command ships late and so had to do all the basic leadership skills to level 5 before I could train the CS skill and while the skills are not overwhelmingly useful, those times where you roll around in 3-5 man gangs without links a small boost is still a small boost. Since training them there have been a handful of times where I get promoted to squad booster just because it does lend something. Although my purpose of training it at the time was for an Absolution to function as a ship of the line not a booster. (I will also admit that having ~90 million SP frees up a lot of worries when choosing what to train).

Secondly, the plan as far as I'm aware is still to bring links on-grid as soon as it can be done. Who knows if it will ever actually happen but as many people have noted, nobody (few people) trains links on mains. So if/when the change gets here there is a question that will come up straight away and that is: "who can fly a Damnation with CS 5 and can link us?" The answer is: o/. At this moment it would take me very little time to be ready to link a fleet from a fully skilled CS, so little that I am positive if the change were announced today I'd be ready before the patch went live and that will be a very valuable commodity that will be in high demand if the change ever gets done. Could a T3 work? Sure it could but the requirements that you use Command Processors and the fitting they eat up means your tank is likely to be pretty thin for a T3 and all it takes is one FC assistant to identify your links from looking at ships and I don't much like your chances of getting out of the fight unnoticed especially with the number of Ishtars running around right now. The Damnation is obvious in what it's doing but it takes punishment like an absolute champ.

Lastly the MMJD is not to be overlooked. Flying in a 3 man BC gang a few weeks ago we surprised the hell out of a 100MN Tengu who thought himself safe before we all MJD into web range. Especially now, these things see so little use people forget they exist and it's fairly easy to be caught off guard by them. They also prevent you being kited to death in a huge number of situations (linked faction scrams on a Lach not withstanding) because you can not kill a MJD ship if you don't hard tackle it and the ships that fit MJDs are very scary to get close to if you're set up to kite at long point range and your tank is heavy enough to survive the ramp up easily enough. Even if your ship was setup purely for links and not to tank anything your T3 has too burn out of the fight or warp in at 100 to someone already at range in the best case. A CS could MJD to safety while still providing links if required.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
River Maira
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2014-07-30 04:13:19 UTC
I greatly enjoy a Sleipnir for lvl 4's. I used a faction booster/boost amp and never have to more than pulse it. Any web/scram frigs pretty much insta pop (which lets be honest is the biggest danger in pve). Flying in AC range with an AB mitigates most of the real damage (cruiser, bc, and even hac rats just melt - and I don't pump out massive dps with it), my cap is never in danger even though I can't perma run the booster (only times my cap gets low is "oops forgot to turn off the booster"). I dunno, I like it better for lvl4 than I do any sb I've flown.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#70 - 2014-07-30 07:38:54 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
No no, I saw the Sleipnir too. Very blingy, but maybe you should try filling all the mids next time.
Edit; and yeah, I haven't flown CSes. I don't see the point, that's kind of what I've been saying...


Generally they provide better DPS than a TIII with a similar tank, while being cheaper and a little more engagable.

Sounds OK to me.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2014-07-30 10:02:06 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
So?

What does any of that have to do with whether or not to train command ships, or how to get a 6k tank, or for that matter what do any of your posts have to do with the OP's request, or any subsequent topic brought up.

Riot Girl you have never flown the ship in topic, and Serendipity you seem to be stuck on a repeating loop of disinterest and disbelief, perhaps both of you should actually try playing Eve-Online rather than Forum trolls online.

And really what imbecile post in these forums with a PVP toon? Nothing better than waiting to get trolled and second guessed for every action you took in the last 5 years by an amateur forum panel. Get a grip and try a better angle for discussing a topic, perhaps actually reading the topic might help.



I do post with a PVP toon, as every serious poster that wants to be taken seriously.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#72 - 2014-07-30 13:00:10 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
So?

What does any of that have to do with whether or not to train command ships, or how to get a 6k tank, or for that matter what do any of your posts have to do with the OP's request, or any subsequent topic brought up.

Riot Girl you have never flown the ship in topic, and Serendipity you seem to be stuck on a repeating loop of disinterest and disbelief, perhaps both of you should actually try playing Eve-Online rather than Forum trolls online.

And really what imbecile post in these forums with a PVP toon? Nothing better than waiting to get trolled and second guessed for every action you took in the last 5 years by an amateur forum panel. Get a grip and try a better angle for discussing a topic, perhaps actually reading the topic might help.



I do post with a PVP toon, as every serious poster that wants to be taken seriously.



Agreed. I don't really get that broken up over what is said on the forums or who blows up what of my ships for that matter. A fight is a fight. I do feel a bit sad for the folks who cower behind posting alts and even a bit more sadderer for those posting alts that can only muster the courage to imply they have some awesome pvp alt that maintains a secret identity.

I'll be frank. I'm not a leet pvp guy, but it is what I try to do every chance I get. I win some and lose some. I have a great time doing it. I don't play spreadsheets online. I don't have EFT (I learned how to fit ships before it existed) and I don't particularly care about fits that are outrageous. [That would be any CS fit that costs over a billion isk and requires a billion isk in implants]

Reality check here: few folks fly that crap, but many folks post those crappy over the top fits.

You risk t1 frigates and cruisers in faction warfare. I pvp in sleipners in wh w/ 300 mil pods all the time. You post w/ and implied posting alt while maintaining some secret identity for your.... well you don't exactly say. I stand here ready to take my lumps as they come. It's my reality vs your made up fairy world. Sorry, I win.


TL - give reasonable advise or I may make fun of you.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#73 - 2014-07-30 16:05:52 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
....

I post with the appropriate toon, for PVE this one for PVP another one, I have no illusions of being a leet PVPer but I figure I am smart enough not to mix the two up in conversations. Too many people imply a KB is a resume for abilities, not to mention retaliate against your PVE toon if they feel scorned by a PVP toon, so no I don't post with a toon that can be trapped by the petty rants and limited arguments of the 'Do you even lift' crowd.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#74 - 2014-07-30 17:24:02 UTC
I'm sorry. I was only making fun of your CS fitting. I'm not sure what happened to you at the gym, but there are people out there that you can pay by the hour to care about you and your situation.

OP just to focus on what this is all about: CS are fun. They can be adapted to cover a lot of roles. PVE is one of them. The nice thing about command ships is that they can do pve and have enough 'wooooosh' to fend of a wide range of folks trying to pee down your air hose. Most solo cloaky interedicted t3 won't have the dps to make you sweat. They can hold you until buddies arrive, but nothing is invincible.

What you don't need to do w/ a command ship is adorn it w/ imaginary fittings. Check my losses for a basic sleipner fit or another guy posted one. The ship is 'tough enough' to do generalized come what may stuff. And please please don't get sucked into the high grade ####### clone stuff. You'll spend the rest of your days saying:

1. Give me 20 min to get into a blank cloan
2. I'll be ready in 23 jumps, I have to go get my ######## clone
3. Sorry I can't go with you, I'm trapped in my crysstal set for another 22hrs

There are countless clone swapping whine threads that come and go - don't become a part of that.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#75 - 2014-07-31 07:01:16 UTC
Or pick a set of clones where you have sets that amplify anything you want to do. No one will object to bringing better/heavier ships on a roam if you can keep up. Just remember that shiny pods stay in high and low because bubbles.
In general, I happen to love a CA 1+2 + Ascendency Beta, Gamma, epsilon with battlecruisers+CS for lowsec work because you now can keep up with a cruiser roam, and all you need to keep up with HACs is an omega. Midgrade works, so the total cost is still semi-reasonable.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#76 - 2014-07-31 15:49:32 UTC
The paradox:

Implant dude "I have 5 bazeeeeeelion ehp and can rep blah blah blah w/ my slave/crystal set"
me "That's awesome! Let's go blow something up!"
Implant dude "Sure, let me get into my blank clone in case we get bubbled and podded"
me [blink blink]
Implant dude "Cool, it's only 12 jumps away. I'll be ready to start shipping up in 20 minutes"

It seems the guys that are always name droping their high grade sets are continually working around not losing them or going x jumps to get into the right clone. There is also that group of guys that declares you NEED to have this set to do that properly. The second group are wrong - and it gets proven all day everyday by folks doing stuff w/out the high grades perfectly fine.

I don't really care what guys put in their heads. I do think it's a bit rude to delay ops or bow out of the group because of .... implants. On the base level, they are optional enhancements. If you feel you NEED this or that set to be able to fly this or that ship - just keep playing eft and keep quiet about it.
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2014-07-31 17:38:31 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
It's a unicorn.


Hey look I found a unicorn on the forums!

As an aside - CS are good for some jobs and since they were revamped that does include combat (usually close and nasty combat).

They are a bit of a slog to get into these days though.

o/
Justin Cody
War Firm
#78 - 2014-07-31 18:15:14 UTC
Jonas Staal wrote:
Hi all,

I got to a point where I did not know what to skill for during my absence, and figured I might aswel start training for command ships.
I know usualy you know what you want, and then skill towards it, so this is kind a backwards.

So my question is:
What's the current state of the command ships,
What are they good at,
What are they used for?

Besides PvP,do they serve purpose in PvE?


They are good fleet ships. They have high dps, truly massive BS sized tanks and can run links if you need them to. Or they could run anything else in those utiltiy highs.

Of course right now a tech 3 cruiser can put out nearly teh same dps...have more tank...more maneuverability and a smaller signature. I'd honestly choose a tech 3 cruiser over a command ship unless you're running links on grid.

However a Command ship will be slightly cheaper. They can also use the new medium micro-jump drive which is a big bonus to coordinated fleet movements or ability to GTFO out of a bubble camp or other types of infinite pointing.

You can do a decent active tank on the absolution and on the damnation. The same goes for the Astarte and Eos. Again the real bonus is running links on them and them being able to survive
Justin Cody
War Firm
#79 - 2014-07-31 18:18:00 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
The paradox:

Implant dude "I have 5 bazeeeeeelion ehp and can rep blah blah blah w/ my slave/crystal set"
me "That's awesome! Let's go blow something up!"
Implant dude "Sure, let me get into my blank clone in case we get bubbled and podded"
me [blink blink]
Implant dude "Cool, it's only 12 jumps away. I'll be ready to start shipping up in 20 minutes"

It seems the guys that are always name droping their high grade sets are continually working around not losing them or going x jumps to get into the right clone. There is also that group of guys that declares you NEED to have this set to do that properly. The second group are wrong - and it gets proven all day everyday by folks doing stuff w/out the high grades perfectly fine.

I don't really care what guys put in their heads. I do think it's a bit rude to delay ops or bow out of the group because of .... implants. On the base level, they are optional enhancements. If you feel you NEED this or that set to be able to fly this or that ship - just keep playing eft and keep quiet about it.



so you have discovered that pirate implants are only for those who can afford to lose them. Otherwise people use em to mission in high sec or bait in low. Risk aversion in EVE is driven by human nature and amplified by killboards. That way people can mock you and your ship for being cowards and exploding.

Stop exploding you cowards! - Zapp Brannigan
Jonas Staal
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2014-07-31 18:21:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Staal
Hi all,


Thanks again for the many opinions and different angles!

I have another question:
Since CS's are BC sized, they also have BC speed, agility and warp speed.

I read somewhere that there are implants that make them able to keep up with cruiser/hac/T3's. When I looked at the warp-speed, it appears both cruiser and BC sized ships have warp speed of 1au.

Are there any "cheapish" implants that make it somewhat more "like a cruiser"?

EDIT: Ofcourse this speed / agility difference would be a + for T3 boosters.