These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Update from Team Security (graphs within!)

First post
Author
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#81 - 2014-07-29 14:19:07 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Privacy of pixel people? C'mon, Ralph.

No, real people, it's an absolute.
GreenSeed
#82 - 2014-07-29 14:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: GreenSeed
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
And Tippia, I know you will convince me wrong by the power of your logic but sometimes world is just black and white and here case is simple: either you play within rules or not. It's not RL with subtleties and crimes of passion and whatever: buying in-game assets with out-of-game RL currency is a choice and consequences should be as severe as making offenders' character names public.

actually its not as simple, any corporation that does something like that would made itself responsible for any repercussions this has.

there's no point in even discussing this... you have to understand that those repercussions can be as simple as some dude turning off the pc, to punching wall and all the way to stuff too grim to mention.

sorry if im being too cynical about this, but if joe lawyer points at a crying mother and says "this evil CCP corporation paraded her son so that an entire community could bully him! how could they!" its pretty much over, anywhere in the world that happens.

so it wont happen, ever. in fact if a player does the detective work to find who is botting and where the proceedings are being funneled, and decided to share it with the community CCP will intervene and protect the players who were botting. they have to.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#83 - 2014-07-29 14:25:15 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Privacy of pixel people? C'mon, Ralph.

No, real people, it's an absolute.


Ehm, saying that character X from corp Y got banned for RMT says nothing about who player is in RL so please show me where that person's right to privacy is violated.

Invalid signature format

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#84 - 2014-07-29 14:27:09 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:

sorry if im being too cynical about this, but if joe lawyer points at a crying mother and says "this evil CCP corporation paraded her son so that an entire community could bully him! how could they!" its pretty much over, anywhere in the world that happens.


Characters have no families nor lawyers.

Invalid signature format

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#85 - 2014-07-29 14:30:41 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
And Tippia, I know you will convince me wrong by the power of your logic but sometimes world is just black and white and here case is simple: either you play within rules or not. It's not RL with subtleties and crimes of passion and whatever: buying in-game assets with out-of-game RL currency is a choice and consequences should be as severe as making offenders' character names public.

actually its not as simple, any corporation that does something like that would made itself responsible for any repercussions this has.

there's no point in even discussing this... you have to understand that those repercussions can be as simple as some dude turning off the pc, to punching wall and all the way to stuff too grim to mention.

sorry if im being too cynical about this, but if joe lawyer points at a crying mother and says "this evil CCP corporation paraded her son so that an entire community could bully him! how could they!" its pretty much over, anywhere in the world that happens.

so it wont happen, ever. in fact if a player does the detective work to find who is botting and where the proceedings are being funneled, and decided to share it with the community CCP will intervene and protect the players who were botting. they have to.


That is a perfect understanding of the issue. I hate RMTrs and botters as much as anyone (they make things in the game worth more or less than they should be, distorting the economy for the majority which is honest players), but letting hate dictate policy is a sure fire way to make things way more screwed up (and unintended real life consequences that could go out of control).

CCP is doing enough and it's good that that don't listen to the over-zealous witch hunters among us...well, they usualyl don't listen to such people I should say , unless you do you thing in a Bonus Room or something.... TwistedTwisted
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#86 - 2014-07-29 14:31:31 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:

sorry if im being too cynical about this, but if joe lawyer points at a crying mother and says "this evil CCP corporation paraded her son so that an entire community could bully him! how could they!" its pretty much over, anywhere in the world that happens.


Characters have no families nor lawyers.


You're being short sighted here.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#87 - 2014-07-29 14:35:11 UTC
Short sighted? Because I can see a difference between in-game character and RL person?

Invalid signature format

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#88 - 2014-07-29 14:36:17 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:

sorry if im being too cynical about this, but if joe lawyer points at a crying mother and says "this evil CCP corporation paraded her son so that an entire community could bully him! how could they!" its pretty much over, anywhere in the world that happens.


Characters have no families nor lawyers.

Stop being obtuse.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#89 - 2014-07-29 14:38:57 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Short sighted? Because I can see a difference between in-game character and RL person?

No, because you can't.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#90 - 2014-07-29 14:49:54 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Short sighted? Because I can see a difference between in-game character and RL person?

No, because you can't.


So I guess you RL name is Tippia and I can google you RL address just like that?

Invalid signature format

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#91 - 2014-07-29 14:53:51 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
So I guess you RL name is Tippia and I can google you RL address just like that?

You probably can, but that's not the point. The point is that we're talking about real people, not characters. You are apparently unable to see the difference.
Prince Kobol
#92 - 2014-07-29 14:54:04 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Short sighted? Because I can see a difference between in-game character and RL person?


Let me put it this way, let just say CCP do realise the names of x number of characters who have been banned for purchasing illegal isk or involved in RMT.

That player was in a major alliance. Somebody in that alliance knows the real life name of the person before the character and what country he lives in. They decided it would be funny to post this information on reddit / SA Forum / K.com etc

Now you now longer have the separation between the in game character and real life, and as we all know to well there are some people who play this game who really really really can not separate between the two.

So yeah whilst many people would love CCP to name and shame those who are banned for things RMT, just purely from a business point of view the risk is simply not worth it.

Think about this way, how long has RMT been around for and how many companies have you ever seen have a name and shame policy?






Prince Kobol
#93 - 2014-07-29 14:57:34 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Short sighted? Because I can see a difference between in-game character and RL person?

No, because you can't.


So I guess you RL name is Tippia and I can google you RL address just like that?


No but I bet there are people who play Eve who know Tippa's real life name, where he/she lives and what he/she does for a living.

Like I said in my previous post, if Tippa was banned for RMT those people might just think, hey **** it, I am going to tell everybody and then post that information.

Now Tippa would be very pissed that CCP released that information and might decide to take them to court.

Whether Tippa would have any case I honestly have no idea, I am not a lawyer, however as a company why would you even put yourself in that position?
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#94 - 2014-07-29 15:00:55 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Short sighted? Because I can see a difference between in-game character and RL person?

No, because you can't.


So I guess you RL name is Tippia and I can google you RL address just like that?



Are you implying that there is no way that from a character name anyone can get a RL name?
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#95 - 2014-07-29 15:06:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmata Bastanold
I am really dense as a bucket of concrete because :bigger picture: and "what if psycho will wait under your bed" arguments do not convince me here. If we would think about RL psychos we wouldn't do most of what we do in-game on daily basis.

But ok, no point of arguing further. I won't convince you, you won't convince me because I am wrong for obvious reasons but that's fine with me. Now I hope nobody from this thread is going to be tomorrow at Warsaw meetup, it could get awkward :)

Oh crap, now you know where I live...

Invalid signature format

Prince Kobol
#96 - 2014-07-29 15:17:46 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
I am really dense as a bucket of concrete because :bigger picture: and "what if psycho will wait under your bed" arguments do not convince me here. If we would think about RL psychos we wouldn't do most of what we do in-game on daily basis.

But ok, no point of arguing further. I won't convince you, you won't convince me because I am wrong for obvious reasons but that's fine with me. Now I hope nobody from this thread is going to be tomorrow at Warsaw meetup, it could get awkward :)

Oh crap, now you know where I live...


Your kind of right, it is ridiculous, however that is the world we live in. A world where anybody will take anybody to court for stupid reasons and win.

Here is an example.

A woman in the UK is taking her council to court because her dog injured itself whilst running in long grass chasing a cat. Her argument is that the area was open to the public and its the councils responsibility to ensure it is maintained and you know what, she will most likely win.

Again, if you were CCP would you really put bother to name and shame knowing the risk even if it is very small. You gain nothing by it by doing it expect the possibility of court action, regardless of how small.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#97 - 2014-07-29 15:21:07 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
I am really dense as a bucket of concrete because :bigger picture: and "what if psycho will wait under your bed" arguments do not convince me here. If we would think about RL psychos we wouldn't do most of what we do in-game on daily basis.

But ok, no point of arguing further. I won't convince you, you won't convince me because I am wrong for obvious reasons but that's fine with me. Now I hope nobody from this thread is going to be tomorrow at Warsaw meetup, it could get awkward :)

Oh crap, now you know where I live...


I don't think you're dense as concrete, I think you really aren't considering the bigger picture, probably due to a hatred of the people in question (RMTrs, botters).

Sorry to go all real life again, but back during my 'rookie' year I had a kind of similar incident where I had to watch a real life bad guy basically get away with something because while I and any other reasonable person could believe he did it, i couldn't PROVE (beyond a reasonable doubt) that he did it.

I was so mad I asked my former trainer (a veteran who's time on the job was by then measured in decades) a question that I now know is very stupid: "Why do these *expletive* criminals get all these rights???"

He looked at me like I was the dumbest person on earth (I was) and said to me "son, criminals don't get rights, EVERYONE gets rights, because everyone HAS rights. Sometimes people think it's a good idea to take those away because they believe someone did something monstrous, but even then they still have rights you need to respect, not for the monster, but for all of us".

16 years later and I know he's right and feel like a fool for saying what I said. Well, CCP isn't a government and EVE isn't real so the stakes are no where near as high as what I deal with in real life, but the same basic principle applies, the integrity of the system is based on CCP treating every customer the same, that includes keeping private business matters between a customer and the company private.

Doing otherwise opens up a Pandora's box that no one wants and if you know lawyers like I know lawyers, if CCP did it otherwise and someone really got hurt (because REAL MONEY is involved), bye bye EVE.
CCP Peligro
Doomheim
#98 - 2014-07-29 16:28:15 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
the graphs talk about ratting, mission, mining and market bots. which of those categories includes factional warfare complex bots? is there such a thing as a fw bot? have there ever been large numbers of them?


There are FW bots out there for sure, and we have some extra checks in place for those. They aren't overly prevalent at the moment.
They fall under mission bots for the automated ESTF system, which only accounts for an estimated 20% of our bans; so you are far more likely to be caught in a manual sweep. We have bits and pieces of detection code just about every activity in New Eden, and we are constantly making improvements and additions to this arsenal.

As for whether or not there were large amounts of them at some point, I'd say yes they used to be more popular, a few years ago perhaps.
Historical data on types of bots used is something we've talked about in dev-blogs and presentations before.
It's very interesting to see how these numbers change over time, with changes to the game by CCP, and also as a result of in-game events, driven by players.


Valterra Craven wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
And yet, I see nothing here about people that bot but don't RMT.
Eh?
So pages 14–17, 27, 31, 33–37, and 39 (and maybe even 51–53) count as nothing? Ugh


I stand corrected. My slide processing part of the brain took a crap this morning.

CCP Peligro wrote:

The Smackdown


Thanks for the long winded reply, I appreciate the time it took you to craft that post. I'm sure a "hey stupid, did you misunderstand what was on the slides here, here, and here?" would have been equally sufficient :X


No worries at all, I'm here to answer questions! The slides are 56 pages long and it's quite a lot to digest. The more misconceptions I can clarify the better! This is very much a topic of awareness and communication on CCP's behalf.

Ryuu Towryk wrote:
I like hammers.
Let's drop some more!


You got it!


Vincent Athena wrote:
Questions:
(Note, you may have to pass it on to the economics team)

How big an ISK sink is all that banned ISK, relative to the various sinks and faucets currently in the game?

When looking at the health of the game's economy, do you in fact consider banned ISK to be a sink?


Very interesting question. I'll have to get back to you on this one. It's not a traditional ISK sink, but ultimately the results are the same; vast amounts of ISK and assets removed from the game world entirely.

Rankan wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:


All in all, we've banned roughly 30,000 bots since the beginning of 2013



So your really saying 30,000 accounts have been banned.

Do you have numbers on how many were paid accounts and how many were 14 or 21 day trials? Seeing the number of Ventures, I suspect there are a lot of trial accounts being used.


Oh and Good Work btw.


Thank you! And yes, I should have said 30,000 accounts instead. That is the number we are measuring in this case.

Trial account abuse is something we take very seriously. It's not allowed, as per the EULA, and we will usually permanently ban trial accounts abusing bots right off the bat.
Ventures are very popular even on paid accounts, it's a specialized mining ship, which is also easily obtainable through the tutorial.
There are some stats on the average age of banned accounts in our fanfest presentations, I've seen this go from 6+ months to an average of ~2 months or so.
This limits botters options in terms of using more advanced ships. It's also resulted in botters requiring more accounts to compensate, which in turn (usually, anyways) makes them easier to detect.

CCP Peligro - Team Security

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#99 - 2014-07-29 16:47:26 UTC
Do you ban in batches or periodically or on daily basis when you confirm offense? Did you ban any accounts today? :)

Invalid signature format

CCP Peligro
Doomheim
#100 - 2014-07-29 17:22:50 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Do you ban in batches or periodically or on daily basis when you confirm offense? Did you ban any accounts today? :)


We ban on a daily basis, and the automated system is running at all times. The ESTF caught and banned 15 accounts overnight.

Our first attempt at larger sweeps and batch-banning was "Unholy Rage" back in 2009. Here's an interesting read on that subject, by CCP Grimmi (Lead GM Grimmi, at the time):
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/unholy-rage/

We found that large sweeps like this had a decent immediate impact, but it was not sustainable in the long run. A "slow-burn" approach has since been adapted, which I prefer.

As an example, this "methodology" if you will, allows us to apply constant pressure to illegitimate operations within EVE Online, such as organized RMTers. This has proven to be more efficient in terms of actually getting rid of these groups, as they will struggle with rebuilding once we crack down. They are there to make money, and if we make that hard enough they will often leave in search of "greener pastures".





CCP Peligro - Team Security