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Making Policies Clear : TOS and Third Party Policy

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Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#21 - 2014-07-29 11:23:05 UTC
Tippia engaged, resistance is futile.

Invalid signature format
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-07-29 11:27:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Anthar Thebess wrote:

Post from 2009 while so many things changed in the polices itself.
I don't think that this can be viable any more - during this time polices where reviewed and changed few times.

Check Point 11 of TOS.
Quote:
The advertisement or sale of out of game goods and services not directly related to EVE online is prohibited. The only out of game goods and services which can be advertised or sold are the following: EVE forum signature creation, website and third party voice communication server hosting or EVE Time Codes.


It looks almost the same like this post.
Except for a part may be sold for ISK .


Terms of Service state:
REVISED: 9 September, 2013

"If the tool is used for EvE Online related service to be used with the game itself as a part or a supplement, you are allowed to sell it in-game for in-game currency."

That's the gist of what my ticket said about 8 months ago and nothing has changed in the ToS since. No, that's not a straight quote.

Edit: OP can you reveal what service or product you're going to sell, at least the basic concept if you can't go to specifics?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#23 - 2014-07-29 11:36:27 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:
What's allowed isn't the point, it's that we have to search through five years of CCP forum posts to find out. And that the official document about it, Third Party Policies, is just flat-out wrong.

No, it's not flat-out wrong. It is just not giving you every last detail (because CCP likes to reserve the right to interpret the rules and give players a flood of rubber paragraphs to abuse) but instead conveys a very simple and entirely accurate message: you may not RMT.
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#24 - 2014-07-29 11:47:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:
What's allowed isn't the point, it's that we have to search through five years of CCP forum posts to find out. And that the official document about it, Third Party Policies, is just flat-out wrong.

No, it's not flat-out wrong. It is just not giving you every last detail (because CCP likes to reserve the right to interpret the rules and give players a flood of rubber paragraphs to abuse) but instead conveys a very simple and entirely accurate message: you may not RMT.

Tell me how this quote from the Third Party Policies:
Quote:
Now that we have made our intent and policy clear, we may, in our sole discretion, deliver appropriate penalties for players that engage in cache scraping after 15 April 2013 (including temporary or permanent bans).

isn't wrong.
Anthar Thebess
#25 - 2014-07-29 11:51:48 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:

Post from 2009 while so many things changed in the polices itself.
I don't think that this can be viable any more - during this time polices where reviewed and changed few times.

Check Point 11 of TOS.
Quote:
The advertisement or sale of out of game goods and services not directly related to EVE online is prohibited. The only out of game goods and services which can be advertised or sold are the following: EVE forum signature creation, website and third party voice communication server hosting or EVE Time Codes.


It looks almost the same like this post.
Except for a part may be sold for ISK .


Terms of Service state:
REVISED: 9 September, 2013

"If the tool is used for EvE Online related service to be used with the game itself as a part or a supplement, you are allowed to sell it in-game for in-game currency."

That's the gist of what my ticket said about 8 months ago and nothing has changed in the ToS since. No, that's not a straight quote.

Edit: OP can you reveal what service or product you're going to sell, at least the basic concept if you can't go to specifics?


Well, something that will pull all your assets from API, market data ... and tell that someone is playing on price of module X just spiked.
So it is time to sell it.

More or less something like this ;)

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#26 - 2014-07-29 11:57:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Derrick Miles wrote:
Tell me how this quote from the Third Party Policies:
Quote:
Now that we have made our intent and policy clear, we may, in our sole discretion, deliver appropriate penalties for players that engage in cache scraping after 15 April 2013 (including temporary or permanent bans).

isn't wrong.

In what way is it wrong?
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2014-07-29 12:00:26 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:

Post from 2009 while so many things changed in the polices itself.
I don't think that this can be viable any more - during this time polices where reviewed and changed few times.

Check Point 11 of TOS.
Quote:
The advertisement or sale of out of game goods and services not directly related to EVE online is prohibited. The only out of game goods and services which can be advertised or sold are the following: EVE forum signature creation, website and third party voice communication server hosting or EVE Time Codes.


It looks almost the same like this post.
Except for a part may be sold for ISK .


Terms of Service state:
REVISED: 9 September, 2013

"If the tool is used for EvE Online related service to be used with the game itself as a part or a supplement, you are allowed to sell it in-game for in-game currency."

That's the gist of what my ticket said about 8 months ago and nothing has changed in the ToS since. No, that's not a straight quote.

Edit: OP can you reveal what service or product you're going to sell, at least the basic concept if you can't go to specifics?


Well, something that will pull all your assets from API, market data ... and tell that someone is playing on price of module X just spiked.
So it is time to sell it.

More or less something like this ;)


That sounds exactly like EvERefinery and is allowed. You can charge ISK for a service you describe, but you cannot solicit real money for the application.
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#28 - 2014-07-29 12:04:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:
Tell me how this quote from the Third Party Policies:
Quote:
Now that we have made our intent and policy clear, we may, in our sole discretion, deliver appropriate penalties for players that engage in cache scraping after 15 April 2013 (including temporary or permanent bans).

isn't wrong.

In what way is it wrong?

Stating that cache scraping is not permitted and is a bannable offense doesn't strike you as wrong? You know that cache scraping is currently allowed?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2014-07-29 12:06:54 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:
Stating that cache scraping is not permitted and is a bannable offense doesn't strike you as wrong?

No. As the rule says they may at their sole discretion deliver appropriate penalties.
Just because they're using their discretion until proper CREST methods have been put in place does not mean it is allowed or that the policy is wrong.

Quote:
You know that cache scraping is currently allowed?
Do you have a source for this?
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#30 - 2014-07-29 12:18:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Do you have a source for this?

This is the most recent CCP response on the issue. And it is obviously contradictory with what is written in the Third Party Policies.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#31 - 2014-07-29 12:21:57 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:
This is the most recent CCP response on the issue.

So the 3PP is entirely accurate: it is not allowed, and they will use their discretion to hand out warnings and bans.
Angeal MacNova
Holefood Inc.
Warriors of the Blood God
#32 - 2014-07-29 12:31:58 UTC
Lothras Andastar wrote:
The TOS needs more Pssssssssssssh!



You just won GD

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#33 - 2014-07-29 12:36:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:
This is the most recent CCP response on the issue.

So the 3PP is entirely accurate: it is not allowed, and they will use their discretion to hand out warnings and bans.

Did you even read the link I posted? It says:
CCP Peligro wrote:
In the meantime, CCP confirms that we will only impose penalties on cache scraping if used in connection with other illegal activities in the game (i.e., botting). We will not take action against cache scraping for other uses.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#34 - 2014-07-29 12:38:40 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:

This is the most recent CCP response on the issue. And it is obviously contradictory with what is written in the Third Party Policies.

You mean the Third Party Policy revised five months AFTER that statement was issued. That therefore supersedes any previous rulings on cache scraping? That Third Party Policy is the one you are trying to claim is wrong?
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#35 - 2014-07-29 12:42:37 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:

This is the most recent CCP response on the issue. And it is obviously contradictory with what is written in the Third Party Policies.

You mean the Third Party Policy revised five months AFTER that statement was issued. That therefore supersedes any previous rulings on cache scraping? That Third Party Policy is the one you are trying to claim is wrong?

There is no date at all on the Third Part Policy and the statement was issued after the date it references as the cutoff for cache scraping being against the rules.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-07-29 12:55:23 UTC
:popcorn:

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#37 - 2014-07-29 12:59:04 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:

There is no date at all on the Third Part Policy and the statement was issued after the date it references as the cutoff for cache scraping being against the rules.

Other than you know, the date at the bottom of the Terms of Service stating when all those policies were revised, and affirmed. But hey, guess reading to the bottom was too hard for you.
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#38 - 2014-07-29 13:03:58 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:

There is no date at all on the Third Part Policy and the statement was issued after the date it references as the cutoff for cache scraping being against the rules.

Other than you know, the date at the bottom of the Terms of Service stating when all those policies were revised, and affirmed. But hey, guess reading to the bottom was too hard for you.

The Third Party Policies are not the same as The Terms of Service. But hey, I guess clicking on links is too hard for you.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#39 - 2014-07-29 13:07:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Derrick Miles wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:
This is the most recent CCP response on the issue.

So the 3PP is entirely accurate: it is not allowed, and they will use their discretion to hand out warnings and bans.

Did you even read the link I posted?
Did you? If you did, have you tried rubbing two brain cells together to contemplate the vast difference between not imposing penalties (i.e. “it is not allowed, but we won't punish you”) and allowing?

It says:
CCP Peligro wrote:
In the meantime, CCP confirms that we will only impose penalties on cache scraping if used in connection with other illegal activities in the game (i.e., botting). We will not take action against cache scraping for other uses.
In other words, it is not allowed, and they will use their discretion to hand out warnings and bans. Let's compare this with the 3PP:
Third Party Policy wrote:
Now that we have made our intent and policy clear, we may, in our sole discretion, deliver appropriate penalties for players that engage in cache scraping after 15 April 2013 (including temporary or permanent bans).
In other words, it is not allowed, and they will use their discretion to hand out warnings and bans. Yes, that sure is a huge discrepancy there. Roll

it's not rocket surgery. At no point have they said that it is allowed. They have only said that they will impose penalties at their discretion. They say this in the 3PP and they say this in the post you linked.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2014-07-29 13:08:11 UTC
Derrick Miles wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Derrick Miles wrote:

This is the most recent CCP response on the issue. And it is obviously contradictory with what is written in the Third Party Policies.

You mean the Third Party Policy revised five months AFTER that statement was issued. That therefore supersedes any previous rulings on cache scraping? That Third Party Policy is the one you are trying to claim is wrong?

There is no date at all on the Third Part Policy and the statement was issued after the date it references as the cutoff for cache scraping being against the rules.


Terms of Service, including the paragraph 9. C which is used for 3PP was "REVISED: 9 September, 2013", click link, wait page to load, press "End" on keyboard, read bottom up: http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/eve-tos/