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Making Policies Clear : TOS and Third Party Policy

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Anthar Thebess
#1 - 2014-07-29 09:25:52 UTC
Hello.
Currently Third Party Policies (http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/third-party-policies/) states that :
Quote:
Real money trading
Trading in-game items for real-life currency or services is NOT allowed under any circumstances.


At the same time EVE Online Terms of Service (http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/eve-tos/) states that :

Quote:
The advertisement or sale of out of game goods and services not directly related to EVE online is prohibited. The only out of game goods and services which can be advertised or sold are the following: EVE forum signature creation, website and third party voice communication server hosting or EVE Time Codes.


There is no information in TOS if people can sell those items for in game goods and currency , or they must sell out of game services for real money and just can advertise them.

Currently people interpret TOS that selling out of game services and goods for ISK is allowed - while in TOS there is no statement about in game currency for external goods.

Can we get statement from CCP?

For me point 11 states that in game i can promote services and goods that are only related to EVE Online, and i cannot sell them for ISK, but "out of game goods" for "out of game currency"

Thank you for your answer.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2 - 2014-07-29 09:30:14 UTC
This ought to be good. The last time they attempted to clarify the terms of service we were told that you can be banned for impersonating yourself.

I predict a lock, and you being told to file a ticket for it but to never tell anyone what the answer was.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Anthar Thebess
#3 - 2014-07-29 09:32:52 UTC
Sorry, but this is real question.
I cannot share any answer i will get on my ticket with no one.

Many players sell out of game goods for in game goods.
This is to clarify polices - i think official forum is best way to do it.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2014-07-29 09:33:04 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I predict a lock, and you being told to file a ticket for it but to never tell anyone what the answer was.

You can tell people the answer just fine, you're simply not allowed to quote them verbatim.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-07-29 09:34:10 UTC
And considering there are many, many such services advertised for ISK payment on CCP's own official forum and CCP has never raised any kind of stink about it whatsoever it's pretty safe to say they consider it kosher.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#6 - 2014-07-29 09:34:13 UTC
I agree that the Third Party Policies needs to be updated, especially considering that it's supposed to be the official guidelines for third party developers. Another thing that hasn't been updated is the cache scraping section:

Quote:
We recognize that some players have engaged in cache scraping in the past, and we want to be clear this practice is not permitted. That said, unless there is an extreme case (i.e., cache scraping combined with other EULA violations), we will not penalize players who have engaged in this practice prior to 15 April 2013. Now that we have made our intent and policy clear, we may, in our sole discretion, deliver appropriate penalties for players that engage in cache scraping after 15 April 2013 (including temporary or permanent bans). In addition, we also may consider eliminating the cache to eliminate this practice and for performance reasons.


...which clearly says that cache scraping is now a bannable offense. However, it is not currently considered a bannable offense as the devs have said in forum posts, and evident by the continued existence of many popular sites and programs that use cache scraping, yet CCP hasn't updated their policies with this stance. Some consistency in the published rules would be nice, especially those that concern whether an account can be banned or not.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#7 - 2014-07-29 09:35:04 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Sorry, but this is real question.


Oh, I know it is, and I entirely agree.

But the ToS is such a subjective mess that I doubt you will get a straight answer on the forums, as that immediately sets precedent for all to see.

Which is a bad thing apparently.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#8 - 2014-07-29 10:11:21 UTC
Ask CCP Gargant tomorrow to relay your question to those who can answer it :)

Invalid signature format
Regnar Avastum
#9 - 2014-07-29 10:39:11 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Hello.
Currently Third Party Policies (http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/third-party-policies/) states that :
Quote:
Real money trading
Trading in-game items for real-life currency or services is NOT allowed under any circumstances.


At the same time EVE Online Terms of Service (http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/eve-tos/) states that :

Quote:
The advertisement or sale of out of game goods and services not directly related to EVE online is prohibited. The only out of game goods and services which can be advertised or sold are the following: EVE forum signature creation, website and third party voice communication server hosting or EVE Time Codes.


There is no information in TOS if people can sell those items for in game goods and currency , or they must sell out of game services for real money and just can advertise them.

Currently people interpret TOS that selling out of game services and goods for ISK is allowed - while in TOS there is no statement about in game currency for external goods.

Can we get statement from CCP?

For me point 11 states that in game i can promote services and goods that are only related to EVE Online, and i cannot sell them for ISK, but "out of game goods" for "out of game currency"

Thank you for your answer.


Why the sudden anger and rampage on the sell forum against people that sell services for ISK? Did someone cross you or something?

On a side note, some clarification from ccp is not a bad thing. Since these services have been advertised on the sell forum for some time now, I'm pretty sure they're ok with it. I hope the answer to your question rustles your jimmies you brave forum warrior.

♔ ℜegnar's High-End Spreadsheets ♔™
Anthar Thebess
#10 - 2014-07-29 11:01:38 UTC
No one have crossed me.
I code a bit myself , and noticed that you can make some isk from it.
I just want to be sure that at some point all work i put in this will not be not made worthless by 1 fast clarification.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#11 - 2014-07-29 11:05:14 UTC
Third time in a week I have to post this quote — is this some kind of epidemic?
GM Horse wrote:
The only out-of-game services that may be sold for ISK are directly EVE related web services, such as killboard hosting, ventrilo/teamspeak servers, corporation website hosting, and such. No, you may not get your mate to wash your car for ISK, even if he will wear a EVE t-shirt in the process. Smile
Regnar Avastum
#12 - 2014-07-29 11:07:06 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:

I just want to be sure that at some point all work i put in this will not be not made worthless by 1 fast clarification.


If this would be the least bit true then you would not have reported every single thread in the sell forum that you think breaks this rule. And you would not have posted in said threads something in the line of: "Haha I have reported you".

And btw having discussions in the sell forum, posting something that is not a question, unrelated to the thread or "haha I have reported you" is breaking the "sell" forum rules ;). I find this particularly funny.

Cheers mate

♔ ℜegnar's High-End Spreadsheets ♔™
Lan Wang
African Atomic.
Dreadnought Diplomacy.
#13 - 2014-07-29 11:08:05 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
No one have crossed me.
I code a bit myself , and noticed that you can make some isk from it.
I just want to be sure that at some point all work i put in this will not be not made worthless by 1 fast clarification.


no your not, your posting on other peoples long running threads with "RMT" cries and quoting little parts of a tos without looking into it all properly, so your either trying to sabotage other peoples businesses so you can steal customers or your just a forum warrior with nothing else to do

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Anthar Thebess
#14 - 2014-07-29 11:08:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Third time in a week I have to post this quote — is this some kind of epidemic?
GM Horse wrote:
The only out-of-game services that may be sold for ISK are directly EVE related web services, such as killboard hosting, ventrilo/teamspeak servers, corporation website hosting, and such. No, you may not get your mate to wash your car for ISK, even if he will wear a EVE t-shirt in the process. Smile


Post from 2009 while so many things changed in the polices itself.
I don't think that this can be viable any more - during this time polices where reviewed and changed few times.

Check Point 11 of TOS.
Quote:
The advertisement or sale of out of game goods and services not directly related to EVE online is prohibited. The only out of game goods and services which can be advertised or sold are the following: EVE forum signature creation, website and third party voice communication server hosting or EVE Time Codes.


It looks almost the same like this post.
Except for a part may be sold for ISK .

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#15 - 2014-07-29 11:09:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Third time in a week I have to post this quote — is this some kind of epidemic?
GM Horse wrote:
The only out-of-game services that may be sold for ISK are directly EVE related web services, such as killboard hosting, ventrilo/teamspeak servers, corporation website hosting, and such. No, you may not get your mate to wash your car for ISK, even if he will wear a EVE t-shirt in the process. Smile

I wouldn't call it an epidemic when people can't find a five-year-old GM quote in an obscure thread. It also doesn't mention the sale of spreadsheets, which is clearly allowed now.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#16 - 2014-07-29 11:11:04 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Post from 2009 while so many things changed in the polices itself.
Pretty much nothing has changed in the policies in this regard.
Lothras Andastar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-07-29 11:14:53 UTC
The TOS needs more Pssssssssssssh!

Because the Legacy Code has too much Psssssssssssssssh, nothing will ever get fixed until CCP stop wasting money on failed sparkle MMOs and instead rewrite the entire backend of EvE from scratch.
Anthar Thebess
#18 - 2014-07-29 11:15:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Post from 2009 while so many things changed in the polices itself.
Pretty much nothing has changed in the policies in this regard.

Lot of things changed in case of :
http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/third-party-policies/

This policy also states:
Quote:
Real money trading

Trading in-game items for real-life currency or services is NOT allowed under any circumstances.



Can we wait for CCP answer instead of arguing ?

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#19 - 2014-07-29 11:17:59 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Lot of things changed in case of :
http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/third-party-policies/
Not in regards to RMT, no.
EVE-related services have been allowed since roughly forever and do not count as “real-life currency or services”.
Derrick Miles
Death Rabbit Ky Oneida
#20 - 2014-07-29 11:20:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Lot of things changed in case of :
http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/third-party-policies/
Not in regards to RMT, no.
EVE-related services have been allowed since roughly forever and do not count as “real-life currency or services”.

What's allowed isn't the point, it's that we have to search through five years of CCP forum posts to find out. And that the official document about it, Third Party Policies, is just flat-out wrong.
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