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Science & Industry

 
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Science corporation going out of business, problems and solutions list

First post
Author
Coyote Laughing
#1 - 2014-07-28 10:07:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Coyote Laughing
Due to the exponentially increasing costs of high sec facilities, our corporation will be winding up and deciding how to divide the blueprints and corporation ship assets.

A POS is not an option due to the changes to Ice and monopolies on POCOs either - so don't suggest it.

These are my suggested solutions.

1. Immediately publish the cost modifiers at ALL facilities, in a similar method to www.eve-central.com

The changes were supposed to stop the flying dutchman effect of travelling constantly from region to region, looking for available and cheap facilties.

FAIL

It is now even more difficult with facilities in a region being hidden from the list AND more expensive.

2. Change the interface so you can minimize the "magic 8 ball" down to one summary line of the blueprint statistics.

FAIL

It takes over over half of the visible area of the screen and leaves only a small box to view options like facility lists.

Not only that, the system sometimes lags up and freezes, leaving you unable to change between research options (copy, time, material, invention).

FAIL

3. Roll back manufacturing times to approximately before the expansion.

Some manufacturers have complained to me, that even with using an original, they are producing less than half of what they can in the same time before the changes.

FAIL

3a. Change time efficiency modifiers to 5% per level - especially given that many time facilities were unused before.

3b. Set the copying time to be approximately half production time, regardless of the time efficiency of the blueprint.

This gives you the devils choice of using a blueprint, improving it to 50%, or paying for copying to double your output.

4. Either refund material efficiency skill points, or else change it so that it reduces production facility costs by 10% per level.

Ship builders gain no advantage for that skill.

FAIL.

5. People who have researched Jury Rigging above I (for T2 engineering rigs for example) now have wasted skill points.

FAIL.

Roll back that change immediately - anybody with the fitting manager role in a corporation is likely to have trained all rigging skills to I at least, if not IV for vital ones.

The argument that because people can use rigs without the rigging skill doesn't really wash with me, unless you intend to add penalties for rigs without them currently, or again, give people the option of refunding skill points.

FAIL

Yes, allow people with the fitting manager role to add modules they can't use and assemble ships they can't fly - but either offline them, or don't force them to leave their current ship.

This is expecially problematic in POS, where you can't dock, so:

FAIL

In any case, adding modules to a fit is a difficulty unless you can see the implications to CPU and Power grid use, so:

6. Allow people with the fitting manager role to auto-fit ships using corporation saved fits, without leaving their active ship.

l8r \o/

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#2 - 2014-07-28 11:04:31 UTC
Learn how to run industry, and all of your points pretty much disappear.

1. Isn't this information on CREST?
2. UI looks fine to me, but that's a reasonable change.
3. Get over it? Everyone works to the same times, so the system will even itself back out.
4. Ship builder gain nothing from a reduction in production time which directly affects the fee for a job? Strange. No changes needed to the skill, and refunds don;t happen just because you don't like the skill anymore.
5. You haven't lost any ability, so why rolls the change back? You'd gain nothing from it being rolled back.
6. This is not something new, so how is this a reason for you to quit industry? It's not like before the expansion you were fitting ships you couldn't fly then laughing off into the sunset.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-07-28 11:14:07 UTC
You are going out of business due to changes that improve the opportunities of making a profit on the market while tons more people are dabbling into industry?

Great!

Can I have your stuff?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#4 - 2014-07-28 12:17:29 UTC
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprint/costindex.php (It's been up a few days now)



Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#5 - 2014-07-28 12:32:41 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprint/costindex.php (It's been up a few days now)
Always our hero.

Are you storing that data to make some funky graphs and whatnot going forward?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#6 - 2014-07-28 12:33:45 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprint/costindex.php (It's been up a few days now)
Always our hero.

Are you storing that data to make some funky graphs and whatnot going forward?



It should be dropping into an archive table once per day.

I have no idea what I'll do with it long term though.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#7 - 2014-07-28 13:23:03 UTC
The main problem, in my opinion, with the concept of traveling after the "cheap facilities" is the risk involved in moving expensive BPO sets around. It's pretty trivial to hit 10+ bil in BPO's for any serious enough manufacturing operation that would truly benefit from running after the savings from job costs.

That is on top of all the materials which you might need to move which can be substantially bulky for any kind of semiserious manufacturing.

For me it just seems like a giant loot pinata flying around waiting to make some suicide gank squad happy as hippos.

I do move my BPO's occasionally but it is a significant operation, not something I'm keen of doing on a whim.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#8 - 2014-07-28 13:50:24 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
The main problem, in my opinion, with the concept of traveling after the "cheap facilities" is the risk involved in moving expensive BPO sets around. It's pretty trivial to hit 10+ bil in BPO's for any serious enough manufacturing operation that would truly benefit from running after the savings from job costs.

That is on top of all the materials which you might need to move which can be substantially bulky for any kind of semiserious manufacturing.

For me it just seems like a giant loot pinata flying around waiting to make some suicide gank squad happy as hippos.

I do move my BPO's occasionally but it is a significant operation, not something I'm keen of doing on a whim.
I'm almost certain that is the aim here. Larger industrialists will either have to take larger risks or stick with the higher fees, while smaller industrialists gain the advantage of flexibility. Before this change there was no advantage to being a small industrialist, since anything they could do, a larger industrialist could do faster, cheaper and on a larger scale. Hopefully the end result will be the powerhouses settling down into mid-priced systems and spacing out a little benefiting from production in high volume, low margins, with small and new industrialists being able to chase the lower fees for lower volume, higher margins. I don't think there any intention of larger industrialists moving continuously. Maybe just like next door for a batch here and there at most.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

John DaiSho
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-07-28 14:18:34 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I'm almost certain that is the aim here. Larger industrialists will either have to take larger risks or stick with the higher fees, while smaller industrialists gain the advantage of flexibility. Before this change there was no advantage to being a small industrialist, since anything they could do, a larger industrialist could do faster, cheaper and on a larger scale. Hopefully the end result will be the powerhouses settling down into mid-priced systems and spacing out a little benefiting from production in high volume, low margins, with small and new industrialists being able to chase the lower fees for lower volume, higher margins. I don't think there any intention of larger industrialists moving continuously. Maybe just like next door for a batch here and there at most.

Living the easy live, running around in my caravan (orca), drinking moonshine and building badly manufactured modules in cheap systems to **** a bit into the bowl of the big guys. YEEHAA :)
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#10 - 2014-07-28 14:28:10 UTC
John DaiSho wrote:
Living the easy live, running around in my caravan (orca), drinking moonshine and building badly manufactured modules in cheap systems to **** a bit into the bowl of the big guys. YEEHAA :)
lol, you certainly know how to paint a picture :D

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Coyote Laughing
#11 - 2014-07-29 05:02:42 UTC
Thank you for the link to this tool - it should let us stay in business, at least until exponential costs catch up again.

It still doesn't address my problems with the in game interface and it not showing all facilties in a region.

No, you can't have our stuff - we would of just planned to cease all further research and stop haemorrhaging ISK.

However, we will be letting our reseach alt accounts expire when the have finished their current jobs, PLEXing that many is no longer a viable option with the current prices in any case.

l8r \o/

Coyote Laughing
#12 - 2014-07-29 06:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Coyote Laughing
That website keeps sending me to systems without facilities, even though I clicked the box and ried reloading.

The only work around seems to be picking a station that looks promising, then typing the system in and searching in 10 jumps.

In any case, the reason I can't seem to find cheap facilities and spread out in hisec is because there are NO cheap public facilities with less than about 2.0 x "unity".

This suggests to me that CCP underestimated demand or this a deliberate decision to drive us all out of hisec.

So, congratulations, you've "fixed" science and industry either way - in the veterinary sense.

There isn't much point doing manufacturing either, because this exponential cost increase kills the profit margins too.

I guess I'll be following my friends to another game, but the TOS/EULA/Forum rules prohibit me from mentioning it.

Time to craft some diamond pick axes on a free server.

l8r \o/

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#13 - 2014-07-29 07:05:55 UTC
2.0 is quite low though, right?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Jacque Custeau
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2014-07-29 07:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jacque Custeau
Steve Ronuken wrote:
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprint/costindex.php (It's been up a few days now)





Providing this information should have been CCP's in-game responsibility. Why does CCP continue to outsource to the player community? Perhaps ask them when they will provide an in-game jump planner for caps?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#15 - 2014-07-29 08:58:42 UTC
Jacque Custeau wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprint/costindex.php (It's been up a few days now)





Providing this information should have been CCP's in-game responsibility. Why does CCP continue to outsource to the player community? Perhaps ask them when they will provide an in-game jump planner for caps?
CCP provided the info through crest. Like a lot of things they supply local information in the game, but offer ways for people to expand the information through the API. If everything was just in game it would be a bit dull, and people would be rewarded for not even bothering to think.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#16 - 2014-07-29 09:09:35 UTC
Jacque Custeau wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprint/costindex.php (It's been up a few days now)





Providing this information should have been CCP's in-game responsibility. Why does CCP continue to outsource to the player community? Perhaps ask them when they will provide an in-game jump planner for caps?



It's available on the map.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#17 - 2014-07-29 09:18:23 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Jacque Custeau wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprint/costindex.php (It's been up a few days now)
Providing this information should have been CCP's in-game responsibility. Why does CCP continue to outsource to the player community? Perhaps ask them when they will provide an in-game jump planner for caps?
It's available on the map.
It is? Lame. Good thing the map is terrible.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#18 - 2014-07-29 23:54:17 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
The main problem, in my opinion, with the concept of traveling after the "cheap facilities" is the risk involved in moving expensive BPO sets around. It's pretty trivial to hit 10+ bil in BPO's for any serious enough manufacturing operation that would truly benefit from running after the savings from job costs.

That is on top of all the materials which you might need to move which can be substantially bulky for any kind of semiserious manufacturing.

For me it just seems like a giant loot pinata flying around waiting to make some suicide gank squad happy as hippos.

I do move my BPO's occasionally but it is a significant operation, not something I'm keen of doing on a whim.


Use a blockade runner, cloak in warp, use an instant undock = Win eve and move goods safer than in anything else

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-07-30 02:43:21 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
The main problem, in my opinion, with the concept of traveling after the "cheap facilities" is the risk involved in moving expensive BPO sets around. It's pretty trivial to hit 10+ bil in BPO's for any serious enough manufacturing operation that would truly benefit from running after the savings from job costs.

That is on top of all the materials which you might need to move which can be substantially bulky for any kind of semiserious manufacturing.

For me it just seems like a giant loot pinata flying around waiting to make some suicide gank squad happy as hippos.

I do move my BPO's occasionally but it is a significant operation, not something I'm keen of doing on a whim.


i have considered moving the expensive part of my blueprint collection to a system with a very low index at the end of the world to make copys 24/7. i'm too lazy and risk averse to do that myself, but black frog looks like they are the right people for the job. in case my own operation is big enough to actually raise the index of a system to a level i'm no longer comfortable with, i'm willing to relocate again (or just wait a month)

i really don't want to transport BPOs worth ~15b every few weeks (and i'm very much not gonna put them in a POS), but transporting a bunch of BPCs that cost me no more than a few million ISK to make can easily be done in a cloakie ship without risking the core of my business. i may loose a few weeks of potential revenue from those BPOs, but that's about it. and i have plenty alternatives available
Coyote Laughing
#20 - 2014-07-30 14:11:51 UTC
I won't be "rage quitting" the game now, I'm too invested in it - but I will be seeking to play for the cheapest method possible, probably getting the discount for a full year subscription.

I'm not going to waste my time grinding PLEX by mining so I can just keep mining - Scrap metal processing V will still let me build stuff with junk drops, just not as often.

However, I will be switching from training perfect refine to getting perfect tank and logistics, then I'm going off to do incursions - unless they plug up that source of high security income next.

At least rigs aren't being nerfed - yet.

l8r \o/