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Replace all optimal/falloff bonuses with an optimal AND falloff bonus

Author
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
#1 - 2011-12-08 00:28:02 UTC
TL;DR
The more balanced optimal:falloff ratio of hybrid weapons makes range bonuses on hybrid ships bad in comparison to other races. Also, this makes ships like the Ferox terrible at using blasters, because the bonus does not suit the weapon system.



Hybrid ships with either a optimal (Caldari) or falloff (Gallente T2) bonus are currently at an unnecessary disadvantage to Amarr and Minmatar ships which contain the appropriate similar bonus.

Let's look at a Caldari ship fitted with blasters, for instance.
2 (optimal) + 6 (falloff) metres will become 3 (optimal) + 6 (falloff). The bonus is useless.

Now, a railguns with AM vs. pulses with Scorch.
Caldari: 36 + 30 (66 total) becomes 54 + 30 (84 total). 27% gain.
Amarr: 45 + 10 (55 total) becomes 62 + 10 (72 total). 31% gain.

Hybrids needlessly suffer because of their more 'balanced' relationship between optimal and falloff. With a 50% falloff bonus:
A 50 optimal, 50 falloff hybrid weapon will have 50 optimal and 75 falloff. 125 total.
A 10 optimal, 90 falloff projectile weapon will have 50 optimal and 135 falloff. 145 total.

Now, if the bonuses were changed to be a 50% bonus to optimal AND falloff (On all ships with a range bonus, not just hybrids!), there would be no disadvantage to a weapon system:
A 50 optimal, 50 falloff hybrid weapon will have 75 optimal and 75 falloff. 150 total.
A 10 optimal, 90 falloff projectile weapon will have 15 optimal, 135 falloff. 150 total.


A range bonus on a hybrid ship will actually mean something.
Discuss!
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
#2 - 2011-12-08 00:46:46 UTC
use caldari as snipers. many are reporting good times with 425 II snipe naga's. Lolrox (or rokh) with that damge bonus would make them more relevant in their bonused roll.

Want blasters fly gallente.


Both races jsut need some speed, or


...wait for it.....




nerf winmatar lol




And the other racial bonuses...what ones are you looking at for perfect matches. Go for easy...cane. has neither falloff or optimal. Its jsut arty besides a few ships sucks so lolartycane is lolartycane. Go for real easy, jaguar. Its run ac mostly, bonused for arty though.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#3 - 2011-12-08 00:47:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
DarkAegix wrote:

Now, if the bonuses were changed to be a 50% bonus to optimal AND falloff (On all ships with a range bonus, not just hybrids!), there would be no disadvantage to a weapon system:
A 50 optimal, 50 falloff hybrid weapon will have 75 optimal and 75 falloff. 150 total.
A 10 optimal, 90 falloff projectile weapon will have 15 optimal, 135 falloff. 150 total.


The one with 75 optimal and 75 falloff would be far more powerful than 15 optimal/135 falloff. Having optimal + falloff adding up across weapons system is rather meaningless.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
#4 - 2011-12-08 00:58:19 UTC
@Misanthra
Nope! Although Caldari are the 'missiles and rails' race, these two weapon systems are incompatible! The Ferox does not have a missile bonus, and so fitting missiles will be worthless in comparison to other ships with bonused weapons.
Other races are not limited to be 'sniping only'.

An Amarrian ship can snipe with beams or get close with pulses, and be fine either way because the ship bonuses match each role.
A Caldari ship should be able to snipe with rails or get close with blasters, but can't without shooting itself in the foot because the ship bonuses don't match both roles.


@Liang
Falloff and optimal are fairly balanced.

75 optimal/75 falloff ship:
100% damage at 75km
50% damage at 150km
1% damage at ~225km

15 optimal/135 falloff ship:
100% damage at 15km
50% damage at 150km
1% damage at ~310km

If optimal > falloff then you gain extra effective damage.
If falloff > optimal then you gain extra range control and range as a whole.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#5 - 2011-12-08 01:10:42 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
Falloff and optimal are fairly balanced.

75 optimal/75 falloff ship:
100% damage at 75km
50% damage at 150km
1% damage at ~225km

15 optimal/135 falloff ship:
100% damage at 15km
50% damage at 150km
1% damage at ~310km

If optimal > falloff then you gain extra effective damage.
If falloff > optimal then you gain extra range control and range as a whole.


How do you consider that balanced? Take sane ranges -- say, 60km -- and then do your comparison based on damage percentages. The fact that your two examples hit optimal + falloff at exactly the same point does nothing to negate the fact that the falloff weapon is doing less damage than the optimal weapon up until that point. While it's nice that falloff-heavy weapons can hit further beyond optimal + falloff than optimal-heavy weapons, no one in their right mind ever tries to maneuver into a situation beyond optimal + falloff.

Honestly, I don't think you've identified a real problem. Caldari optimal-bonused hulls can manage to use Void in a wider range of situations, and Gallente have to rely on Null. Rails... well, I still haven't had the chance to play with rails since their alleged boost, but I've never been a fan before for any number of reasons -- none of which would be solved by double bonusing hulls.
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
#6 - 2011-12-08 01:29:18 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:

How do you consider that balanced? Take sane ranges -- say, 60km -- and then do your comparison based on damage percentages. The fact that your two examples hit optimal + falloff at exactly the same point does nothing to negate the fact that the falloff weapon is doing less damage than the optimal weapon up until that point. While it's nice that falloff-heavy weapons can hit further beyond optimal + falloff than optimal-heavy weapons, no one in their right mind ever tries to maneuver into a situation beyond optimal + falloff.

You're effectively denying the usefulness of autocannons, the most popular weapons type for PVP!

Also, I was comparing railgun vs autocannon rough weaponry range ratios.
Railguns are meant to be better when it comes to ranged combat, yes?

Those numbers were made up, anyway. I'll compare real numbers from unbonused to 50% for both optimal and falloff.
800mm AC (Barrage): 6 + 36 to 9 + 54,
Neutron blaster (Null): 9 + 12 to 13.5 + 18

Not game breaking Blink
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#7 - 2011-12-08 01:35:59 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
You're effectively denying the usefulness of autocannons, the most popular weapons type for PVP!


I'm most certainly not. ACs, of course, are fine and work in falloff. But that has nothing to do with whether comparing identical optimal + falloff numbers gives any indication of balance. I was questioning your methodology, not trying to claim that falloff is somehow useless.

DarkAegix wrote:
Also, I was comparing railgun vs autocannon rough weaponry range ratios.
Railguns are meant to be better when it comes to ranged combat, yes?


Of course they are. Comparing rails and ACs is rather daft in the first place as the two weapon systems fill entirely different roles.

DarkAegix wrote:
Those numbers were made up, anyway. I'll compare real numbers from unbonused to 50% for both optimal and falloff.
800mm AC (Barrage): 6 + 36 to 9 + 54,
Neutron blaster (Null): 9 + 12 to 13.5 + 18

Not game breaking Blink


I guess I'm not seeing the point here. What are these numbers supposed to show?
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
#8 - 2011-12-08 06:11:03 UTC
Quote:

DarkAegix wrote:
Those numbers were made up, anyway. I'll compare real numbers from unbonused to 50% for both optimal and falloff.
800mm AC (Barrage): 6 + 36 to 9 + 54,
Neutron blaster (Null): 9 + 12 to 13.5 + 18

Not game breaking Blink


I guess I'm not seeing the point here. What are these numbers supposed to show?

That giving ships like the Ferox an optimal & falloff bonus in one won't be game breaking.
Jaketh Ivanes
Rigorous Rivals
#9 - 2011-12-08 09:33:05 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:


Now, a railguns with AM vs. pulses with Scorch.
Caldari: 36 + 30 (66 total) becomes 54 + 30 (84 total). 27% gain.
Amarr: 45 + 10 (55 total) becomes 62 + 10 (72 total). 31% gain.




Usually not a good idea to compare long range guns with short range guns... Kind like comparing apples with bricks, to many differances.

Try to compare rails with mega beams or artilleries and use short range, high damage ammo.
FlameGlow
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-12-08 10:02:39 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
TL;DR
Make artillery even more overpowered under guise of hybrid boost

NO Evil