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LvL 4 FW Mission Imbalance: Issue?

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Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#161 - 2014-06-12 21:47:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Baron' Soontir Fel
Feodor Romanov wrote:

Every PVPer farms ISKs. Most of new PVPers do not want to learn caldari ships for pvp and for PVE they want to learn mostly drones. that is hard work to make them join calmil. The main motivation to join calmil for now is more easy money. They can spend less time in PVE and have more free time for PVP.
So if FW gal/cal missions will have equal or near equal difficulty, some new pvpers will quit and many will not join calmil in the future. The result of such changes will be less farmers and pvpers in calmil and more of them in other militias.
I don't now about other alliances but such changes will definitely hit OMG's recruitment.


I highly suggest you go back and read what you wrote. You literally said CalMil gets easy money through missions and therefore, if CCP balances the missions CalMil will lose players because there's no other reason to stay.

Those people are the farmers, not PvP'ers.




Welcome to balance buddy






edit: I haven't had less fights at mediums, just more of my frig/dessie fights have been in smalls + novices. Mediums are relegated to brawling dessies and cruisers.

It's just the current meta that dissuades cruisers from being used due to the overabundance of cheap t1 frigs that can just swamp a cruiser.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#162 - 2014-06-13 17:47:42 UTC
Feodor Romanov wrote:
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Feodor Romanov wrote:
The 4 lvl FW missions is the main reason why cal mil is still exist. Your suggestion to "balance" it will ruin caldari militia.


Ruin Caldari farmers maybe.
The actual Caldari militia will still remain.


There's a pretty good reason why Caldari has always had a huge number advantage over the rest of the militias in pure numbers, and it wasn't pvp'ers.


Every PVPer farms ISKs. Most of new PVPers do not want to learn caldari ships for pvp and for PVE they want to learn mostly drones. that is hard work to make them join calmil. The main motivation to join calmil for now is more easy money. They can spend less time in PVE and have more free time for PVP.
So if FW gal/cal missions will have equal or near equal difficulty, some new pvpers will quit and many will not join calmil in the future. The result of such changes will be less farmers and pvpers in calmil and more of them in other militias.
I don't now about other alliances but such changes will definitely hit OMG's recruitment.


People will still join CalMil. Some people like to keep their Jita access.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#163 - 2014-06-13 18:20:33 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Assault Frigates can solo some L4 missions in highsec. So keeping with that theme, an AF should be able to do it in FW L4 missions. I don't like the webbing tower idea, I think webbing frigates would be preferable. Webbing towers could be easily primaried by a SB and killed in 2 volleys. An assualt frigate would have a hard time with webbing towers, but could deal with the webbing frigates. That would make it balanced in my opinion, as it would give AFs a chance in doing FW L4s, but kill off the solo bomber runs.

You mean variety in mission design, such that you might have to choose your missions based on the ship you can bring? HERESY!

I'd support that kind of design goal. I just can't get behind a design paradigm that attempts to keep things farmable in bombers.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#164 - 2014-06-13 21:41:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyktor Abyss
Responding to the OP.

Make all missions harder and require bigger/tougher ships or a make the missions have a variety of different optimal ship types to complete. I've got no problem having maybe one L4 being optimal to use a bomber for example for the sake of variance - but when all the missions can be ran in a bomber or similar cheap/low risk ship thats just wrong.

I'd argue that some of the standings hits taken should be reduced to be more in line with normal missions, and there should definitely be more variety both in types of missions and the rewards provided (Storyline missions for faction item/implants anyone?).

Other than that I think Gallente missions being more difficult right now is a good balance encouraging people (often newer lower skilled pilots) to collect LP from plexes primarily and missions being farmed hard (often by the vets with shiny ships) when the LP value makes them worthwhile. It caters for all sorts and not just farmers.

I'd also argue the LP values will never properly recover after the last set of LP changes (there is too much LP about!), so now the main importance is to redress the tags required and dropped by missions for specific LP store items - People need more viable ways to spend that LP.

Right now only 2 tags cover everything worthwhile (that requires tags) from the LP store - thats interesting in one way as it boosts the cost of those navy modules, but is an artificial way to control the price due to the cost of the tags. Perhaps a tag converter or something so the useless ones that all get sold to NPC buy orders can be put towards the high end navy LP store kit too.

Just my opinions, which might be out of touch after not playing for a little while.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#165 - 2014-06-17 13:31:06 UTC
Simyaldee wrote:

Reward: At the base Tier 2 level. The Average Payout for a Level 4 is 20kish LP plus a couple million ISK per mission. This can amount to anywhere from 30Million Total Isk to 60 Million Total ISK depending on the market values of LP. Obviously the extremely high payout of 90K LP at Tier 4 is too large of a disparity to be ignored, which is why I insist it be dropped to base Tier 2 Rewards.




The problem with not letting the higher tiers effect missions is that missions pull farmers off of plexes. If someone is at tier 4 and they can make more isk deplexing than running missions everyone will just join the winning side and there will be no reason to think the losing side can catch up.

The nice thing about missions is it lets the farmers farm without effecting occupancy.

It has come up here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4719074#post4719074

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#166 - 2014-06-17 14:11:19 UTC
Each faction should reward the players who do nothing to achieve their goals. Buff missions.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#167 - 2014-07-25 17:25:44 UTC
any news on this issue?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#168 - 2014-07-25 17:39:29 UTC
Cearain wrote:
any news on this issue?

As folks have previously said, no L4 mission balance will be done until they get their new content tools online. Too much effort / work / reauthoring to make it worthwhile otherwise.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#169 - 2014-07-25 18:04:19 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Cearain wrote:
any news on this issue?

As folks have previously said, no L4 mission balance will be done until they get their new content tools online. Too much effort / work / reauthoring to make it worthwhile otherwise.

Extremely difficult L4 missions give Gallente too much of an advantage. (tm)
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#170 - 2014-07-25 18:30:12 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Extremely difficult L4 missions give Gallente too much of an advantage. (tm)


We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

(with apologies to Frank Herbert and David Lynch)

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2014-07-25 18:38:25 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Extremely difficult L4 missions give Gallente too much of an advantage. (tm)


We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

(with apologies to Frank Herbert and David Lynch)


My lord, I suspect an incredible secret has been kept on this region: that the Gallente exist in vast numbers - vast. And it is they who control Black Rise.

.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#172 - 2014-07-25 19:02:48 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

My lord, I suspect an incredible secret has been kept on this region: that the Gallente exist in vast numbers - vast. And it is they who control Black Rise.

And as they chanted below him, a horrifying thought passed through X Gallentius' mind...

"My name has become a Killing Word!"

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Arla Sarain
#173 - 2014-07-26 08:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Balancing missions? Sure.
Under what criteria? dunno - current suggestions seem to be kneejerks.

Making mission into a PvE/PvP mix puts the person who is doing the mission at a disadvantage. Those are not plex rats anymore...

Putting more stuff to kill is against what CCP thought of these missions - they are deep in enemy space; there is already risk in that you're moving 20j through potential gatecamps into potentially wartarget full systems. Them being short is part of the design.

IMO they should still be able to be done in a stealth bomber with some effort. But remove all the gates - they give too much of a heads up to the person running the mission on whether someone is coming their way. By the time a person lands, aligns, accelerates and warps the bomber had 30s to get his ass out.

Give the rats higher tracking and range up to 130km. No javs, no sitting at 60km with 3 sebos whilst safely avoiding fire. Basically less carebear fits.

They have been tweaking missions BTW. At least on the caldari side. I've noticed some subtle changes in Supply Interdiction that do not seem to be the same as in Subsparx's FW mission guide.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#174 - 2014-07-26 10:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Seems ccp fixed a lot with kronos concerning fw missions. No more cloaking in missions has made fw mission farming a lot harder plus bombers are inty fodder.
Actually all these bombers can be farmed down with inties quite easily so I think it is almost fixed now.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Nourv Gate Security Commission
#175 - 2014-07-26 10:51:54 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:


IMO they should still be able to be done in a stealth bomber with some effort. .


You do realise all races part from gallente can be done in a bomber right gals have to use T3s with eccms in the mids cos of jams

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Arla Sarain
#176 - 2014-07-26 10:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:


You do realise

Yes I do.

Actually Amarr don't get to do it well.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#177 - 2014-07-26 11:04:45 UTC
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:


IMO they should still be able to be done in a stealth bomber with some effort. .


You do realise all races part from gallente can be done in a bomber right gals have to use T3s with eccms in the mids cos of jams


You realise how much ccp and fozzie love the gals? Just pointing on op comet, op ishtar, op algos etc.
Better pray ccp doesn't fix it for the gals because if they do gal fw lv4 will be doable in noobship with civilian gatling rail.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Gordin Brott
Huvilma Sentinels
GunFam
#178 - 2014-07-26 11:15:03 UTC
Not all level 4 FW missions are created equal, even within a particular faction. One reason they're currently so easy to blitz on the Minmatar/Caldari sides is that people have a tendency of picking and choosing those which can be easily run without risk in a stealth bomber, and declining the rest until they get a 'good' one. Locking each agent for 24 hours if a mission is declined should rattle things a bit.
Arla Sarain
#179 - 2014-07-26 11:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Gordin Brott wrote:
Locking each agent for 24 hours if a mission is declined should rattle things a bit.

Or you could just stop it with the band aids and the consequential unintended favoritism juggling the whole mission system from one extreme to the other. Cos god knows it will turn from Cal/Minnie easy mode to Gal/Amarr. Down with the Pendulum.

The issue people have is that SBs can run these missions for some factions, but not others.

1)Put the warp in beacon into the rat spawn.
2)Remove gates
3)Improve range and tracking of rats so that stealth bombers need to get closer.
4)Get rid of ewar rats. Every time a rat ECMs you for 20s 5 times in a row God kills 7 kittens.

What this does:
+ with 100km max warp in distance you are not in range to Javelin kite, or close enough to speed tank.
+ no gates makes you vulnerable to get jumped on by inties with a lot less warning. I get the impression people underestimate the time it takes to get through an acceleration gate.
+ Better tracking/range forces SBs to get close to rats -> closer to warp in beacon.

Options: fly a cheap hull that is relatively easy to skill into but be at great risk of losing it to inties or counter cloaked SBs/asteros or even other cov ops.

Or fly the odd battleship and do the mission at your leisure. Apart from being frigate blob bait.
Cos really, that's the only reason why people ask big ships to be compulsory in lvl 4 mission in this thread - to put more BSs in the warzone that have to go 20j out with no backup so that the defending faction can get expensive kill mails with no possible losses. *takes of tinfoil hat*

But atleast this gives some flexibility in how you would like to lose your ship.

P.S. Just remove missions. It's not like plexs are populated these days. PvP is reduced to blob, camp, and Burn [System] in which everyone just attempts to get as many novices, then realize they don't have the TZ to plex the system while the other faction sleeps. Do away with missions, militia LP is locked to plexs, farmers get harassed by defending factions, cry to their PvP overlords, the latter arrive on the scene, fights ensue.
Cromwell Savage
The Screaming Seagulls
#180 - 2014-07-26 12:39:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Cromwell Savage
Arla Sarain wrote:

The issue people have is that SBs can run these missions for some factions, but not others.

1)Put the warp in beacon into the rat spawn.
2)Remove gates
3)Improve range and tracking of rats so that stealth bombers need to get closer.
4)Get rid of ewar rats. Every time a rat ECMs you for 20s 5 times in a row God kills 7 kittens.


From personal experience with my fits running Minnie and Cal FW missions in bombers...1 and 3 won't completely 'fix it' unless you introduce webs (or up the DPS).

As is, I can AB+local rep pretty much anything when missioning. Some more than others with a heavy dose of caution, but for the most part doable. Granted, my mission fits are a bit "shiney", but still immensely cheaper than what I need to run Gal missions...