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How honestly hard is it to create missile launcher models that use turret hardpoints?

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Avila Cracko
#61 - 2011-11-27 18:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Avila Cracko
Jada Maroo wrote:
CCP is making it harder than it needs to be. Stop treating missiles as actual objects and render them as client side visual effects like the new engine trails. Remove them as server-tracked objects entirely, and remove Defenders and the Defender skill. Treat missiles as delayed reaction damage. Note the time of the launch server side. Use missile velocity skill to aid in calculating time until impact. At that time check to see if the target ship is still on grid. If it is, determine current distance of launcher ship from target, check against launch time and max speed of target ship. If within range, assume the missile always hits the target (this makes it eaiser to render the missile visual effect), but then use target speed and sig size as normal to dertmine if any damage is applied and render the explosion on or near the object based on the result.


Works for me...
and if they do that i think that would be the biggest step in combat against lag they ever made...
server would have to track only ships and drones then...
and we can have the fabulous missile effects... Big smile

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
#62 - 2011-11-27 18:19:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Tronic
Jada Maroo wrote:
CCP is making it harder than it needs to be. Stop treating missiles as actual objects and render them as client side visual effects like the new engine trails. Remove them as server-tracked objects entirely, and remove Defenders and the Defender skill. Treat missiles as delayed reaction damage. Note the time of the launch server side. Use missile velocity skill to aid in calculating time until impact. At that time check to see if the target ship is still on grid. If it is, determine current distance of launcher ship from target, check against launch time and max speed of target ship. If within range, assume the missile always hits the target (this makes it eaiser to render the missile visual effect), but then use target speed and sig size as normal to dertmine if any damage is applied and render the explosion on or near the object based on the result.


Right, that won't work because that assumes missiles are dumb, the server has to make the missiles follow after ships moving very fast and also changing direction which the missiles must also do to hit.

It is also completely possible as a tactic for ships to completely outrun missiles but still be within missile range of the launcher ship. Your logic would mean even though I outran the missile, I will get damage applied because I'm within the ship's range. Additionally if I outran the missile so that it is 20km behind me but I'm within the ship's range, the missile explosion effect will suddenly jump to my ship out of nowhere.


You also can't simply assume that being at X speed, the missile never hits because it can easily be the case somebody in a 6km/s dramiel just flew right next to a drake almost 0km at the same time the drake launched a missile and the chances are that will hit.

The problem CCP is probably having is that having launcher turrets requires missiles to be handled individually as they would no longer magically spawn in a single volley. There are probably physics issues involved with the launchers operating as such.
5eekar
Doomheim
#63 - 2011-11-28 03:42:18 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
Why not create a visual effect that goes from each missile launcher and converges at a specific point some little distance from the hull? Then just spawn the missile 'ball' at that point and treat it as normal.


I rather imagine this is how it will have to be done when missiles are grouped. It should also be possible for that "ball" to have a graphic that looks like multiple missiles spiraling around each other, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a tight grouping either.

It would be interesting if all of the hulls to could be adapted to something resembling a T3 approach, where instead of having separate missile launchers appear on the hull just like guns do a new hull section would appear with a variable number of missile launchers as part of the modeling of that section. This section would always appear in the same place on the hull (away from any current gun hard points) and would keep the missiles all spawning in close proximity to each other (helping make the firing effect simpler).

This way your Raven or Drake would have a raised section or two bristling with launchers that would appear when you mount your launchers in fitting. For ships that have few optional launchers available a smaller version of the same would appear somewhere on the hull. It could also have an animation of doors opening on it, similar to the way guns pop out now.

This way no rotating and widely spaced turret-like launchers. Thus providing the advantage of a fixed exit trajectory for all missiles, all grouped closely from one or two points on the hull... vastly simplifying the physics and firing/flight graphics involved.


I kinda like this idea so far, having a 'missile deck' on the launcher-heavy ships would make it easier to work with effects-wise. Couple this with the idea of missiles launching in one direction then curving and tracking the target would look cool imo (although I do wonder if that would mess with flight time/range calculations - losing 1 second of flight time to realigning will shorten effective range a little)
Mirima Thurander
#64 - 2011-11-28 05:07:02 UTC
supersexysucker wrote:
It is cause CCP made eve crap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhZQEvg1V0Y 05 rofl... looks as good as eve does in 11. IMHO looks better, shild inpacts, trails, fighters that launch and dock, miss effects, hard points. Better inpact effects, damage effects, explosions, etc. And again 05 lol. O ya and line of sight wepons.





line of sight wepons

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#65 - 2011-11-28 05:27:16 UTC
if I recall right nexus 2 was cancelled, twice.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Crucis Cassiopeiae
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2011-11-28 09:01:27 UTC
CCP... we believe in you... :)
you can do ti...

Vote Issler Dainze for CSM7! http://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=470 
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
Transgress
#67 - 2011-11-28 11:58:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Shpenat
When handling missile and missile launcher animations there are several problems that needs to be taken into consideration:


  • Unlike turrets, missiles are actually handled server side. More that 1 missile per ship per launcher group means lag
  • Server runs in 1 second tics. After spawning missile it takes at least 1 second to get its updated position from the server
  • Missiles moves at relatively slow speed and can interfere with ship which spawned them



Possible solution A
Missile launcher behaves like turrets and track intended target. Server still spawns single missile per launcher. Client does not draw this single object but rather N objects that are tracking the position of real server-side missile. Problem with this solution is that the server side missile is not available until after 1 second after launch.

This solution does not require any server side tweaking, but you need some graphical magic in that single second after launch.


Possible solution B
Missile launchers are fixed on the ship (like on drake) and are always fired forward. Then they lock their intended target and adjust their path accordingly. Client again draws N missiles instead of one but this time he knows how to draw them before he gets update from the server.

Disadvantage of this solution is that it changes missile a bit server side. It will have to be fired in "forward" direction and adjust its heading later on during the flight. Also some fast ships might be interfering with its own missiles.
Daedalus II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2011-11-28 12:24:03 UTC
In my opinion I don't think the hard part is making missiles fly out of launchers. That can be handled purely client-side. Server-side you would still have the single missile flying out of the center of the ship, but it's hidden client-side by clever graphics. To fire a single grouped missile would simply be several missiles animated to be launched and then they converge like swarmer missiles once clear of the ship and moves like a single unit from then on.

What is hard is creating all those hard points and launchers that would be needed on ships whose models doesn't really support it.

What I would suggest is having launchers appear like in for example Stargate. On the Daedalus you have the launchers work like missile silos on earth or missile submarines; the missile is shot out of the hull at specific locations. That way you would not need any launcher models at all, and all you had to do to the ships is define a couple of "holes" in the hull from where missiles could be launched (perhaps with animated ports that open and close). Then you just use clever client-side graphics to make it appear like the missiles come from those holes instead of from the center of the ship. Also solves problems like for example oversized launchers on stealth bombers.
Victor Valka
Insterstellar Mining and Manufacturing
#69 - 2011-11-28 12:35:59 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
if I recall right nexus 2 was cancelled, twice.
Third time's a charm? Big smile
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#70 - 2011-11-28 13:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Victor Valka wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
if I recall right nexus 2 was cancelled, twice.
Third time's a charm? Big smile


Fundraiser isnt doing to well. :(

Either way the core issue is the missiles themselves an the behavior expected of them. Which means some of the quick solutions suggested would gut missiles of thier uniqueness, and not jsut missiles but every missile like object such as drones and bombs which behave on similar princibles.

Though I would love the idea of drones being more like guns its very unrealitic comprimise between workability and functionability.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Larva lord
Steel Phoenix Battalion
#71 - 2011-12-08 04:12:25 UTC
The way i see it is they could have the missile turrest like thay have the current gun turrets tracking target and all that but each missile turrete has 8 tubes on the skin so that if the ship fires a grouped shot one turret emptys all its tubes than at the start of the next cycle a difforent turres emptys its tubes you could say tat the first tuurrt is still reloading its missiles into the tubes or somting and the ammo count for the missiles s the internal magazins that need replacing or refilling from cargo and for single shots each turret fires a single missile

i think i exsplain what was in my head but im sure you get the gist of wha im saying
K Suri
Doomheim
#72 - 2011-12-08 04:15:51 UTC
Posting. r(e)Frayn wrote:
And make missiles fly out of the launchers instead of the middle of the ship? I really want to know. Why can't you guys make this happen? Sad

Fixed your sig for you.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#73 - 2011-12-08 05:34:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Larva lord wrote:
The way i see it is they could have the missile turrest like thay have the current gun turrets tracking target and all that but each missile turrete has 8 tubes on the skin so that if the ship fires a grouped shot one turret emptys all its tubes than at the start of the next cycle a difforent turres emptys its tubes you could say tat the first tuurrt is still reloading its missiles into the tubes or somting and the ammo count for the missiles s the internal magazins that need replacing or refilling from cargo and for single shots each turret fires a single missile

i think i exsplain what was in my head but im sure you get the gist of wha im saying


Or it could be that the magazines are localized and have to be moved from the cargo area to the magazine that directly feeds the launchers.

They also could be doing it Current Macross style, where the missiles are acutally small diskets all stacked inside the tubes like a firestorm gun is.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#74 - 2011-12-08 05:42:23 UTC
Shpenat wrote:
When handling missile and missile launcher animations there are several problems that needs to be taken into consideration:


  • Unlike turrets, missiles are actually handled server side. More that 1 missile per ship per launcher group means lag
  • Server runs in 1 second tics. After spawning missile it takes at least 1 second to get its updated position from the server
  • Missiles moves at relatively slow speed and can interfere with ship which spawned them



Possible solution A
Missile launcher behaves like turrets and track intended target. Server still spawns single missile per launcher. Client does not draw this single object but rather N objects that are tracking the position of real server-side missile. Problem with this solution is that the server side missile is not available until after 1 second after launch.

This solution does not require any server side tweaking, but you need some graphical magic in that single second after launch.


Possible solution B
Missile launchers are fixed on the ship (like on drake) and are always fired forward. Then they lock their intended target and adjust their path accordingly. Client again draws N missiles instead of one but this time he knows how to draw them before he gets update from the server.

Disadvantage of this solution is that it changes missile a bit server side. It will have to be fired in "forward" direction and adjust its heading later on during the flight. Also some fast ships might be interfering with its own missiles.



Just an observation to add in. Due to the nature of missiles they would not necessarily need to fire forward before beginning to track. They could just as easily fire up (out of the flight path of your ship), down, or even to the rear.

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Stonecold Steve
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#75 - 2011-12-08 07:54:39 UTC
Arthur Frayn wrote:
Alexandros Balfros wrote:
Yup but it would still need each missile to be spawned meaning the performance gains made by grouping missiles would be lost, as cool as it would look its not worth having the added lag back from them :)

It's worth it to me!


Alexandros Balfros wrote:
You assume the modellers are the same people who work on textures, you know they don't "have" to be the same guys ;)

I saw the guy working on the new Raven model in the Eve video. He didn't look overworked or stressed. In fact, he looked quite cheerful, which means he's probably not being given enough work to do.


Your just jealous he has a job that he has fun doing and you are being used as a peon on the job which is why your stressed out and not having any fun at work.

“Hasta la muerte, todo es vida.”