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Fuel Block BPO & Research
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#1 - 2011-12-01 06:13:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
In case you were wondering...

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=326619#post326619

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Other Things

* Currently they're configured to be researchable, with fairly short durations. I'm seeing some questions about this here - is there a strong reason why these need to be unresearchable? I don't have an industry designer on hand right now or I'd ask them :)

A manufacturing quote doesn't show any materials as extra, so...

By my math for Caldari at current Jita prices, waste is the following per hour (large tower):

./me.pl -v -w 0.05 8 4 158 158 4 420 21 1 -- 12469 13998.99 163.97 430 14182.99 437.82 479.97 84999.90
M.E. 0: 0 0 8 8 0 20 1 0 = 13988.13 ISK
M.E. 1: 0 0 4 4 0 10 1 0 = 7234.05 ISK
M.E. 2: 0 0 3 3 0 7 0 0 = 4846.65 ISK
M.E. 3: 0 0 2 2 0 5 0 0 = 3377.04 ISK
M.E. 4: 0 0 2 2 0 4 0 0 = 2939.22 ISK
M.E. 5: 0 0 1 1 0 3 0 0 = 1907.43 ISK
M.E. 8: 0 0 1 1 0 2 0 0 = 1469.61 ISK
M.E. 13: 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 = 1031.79 ISK
M.E. 15: 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 = 437.82 ISK (2d 2h or less of research)
M.E. 40: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 = 0.00 ISK (5d 13h 20m or less of research)

EDIT: Added estimated research times before skills, implants, and lab bonuses.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#2 - 2011-12-01 06:25:51 UTC
Scripting languages are so handy (though I prefer Python myself). How long exactly does it take to research the ME level of the BPO? If you can hit 15 within a day or two, I'd say that's not too bad (a bit annoying to need to research, but not horrible).
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#3 - 2011-12-01 06:32:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
mxzf wrote:
Scripting languages are so handy (though I prefer Python myself). How long exactly does it take to research the ME level of the BPO? If you can hit 15 within a day or two, I'd say that's not too bad (a bit annoying to need to research, but not horrible).

3 hours 20 minutes per M.E. level before skills, implants, and lab bonuses. Therefore 2d 2h or less for M.E. 15, and M.E. 40 is 5d 13h 20m or less.

P.E. is the same time, but I wouldn't do more than about P.E. 6.

EDIT: Regarding Python, I don't like languages where whitespace is a part of the syntax. Too much like punchcards I used in highschool on a DEC PDP 11/34 (yes, I'm that old).
Eradiani
Doomheim
#4 - 2011-12-01 06:35:21 UTC
I don't think that is correct numbers. The BPO says 5% default waste instead of 10% like other blueprints.

don't think it's going to follow the same formula

or did you factor this?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#5 - 2011-12-01 06:41:50 UTC
Eradiani wrote:
I don't think that is correct numbers. The BPO says 5% default waste instead of 10% like other blueprints.

don't think it's going to follow the same formula

or did you factor this?

Yes, I did. Hence the "-w 0.05" override on my script args, which I really showed for the prices I used.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#6 - 2011-12-01 06:44:02 UTC
Eradiani wrote:
I don't think that is correct numbers. The BPO says 5% default waste instead of 10% like other blueprints.

don't think it's going to follow the same formula

or did you factor this?


Quote:
./me.pl -v -w 0.05 8 4 158 158 4 420 21 1 -- 12469 13998.99 163.97 430 14182.99 437.82 479.97 84999.90

If I'm reading it right, that underlined part is the 'use 5%' part of the command he used.

And about 2d or less to get to ME15, that's not too bad I don't think. I don't really see the need for them to have loss, but it's not that big a deal either.
Eradiani
Doomheim
#7 - 2011-12-01 06:44:11 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Eradiani wrote:
I don't think that is correct numbers. The BPO says 5% default waste instead of 10% like other blueprints.

don't think it's going to follow the same formula

or did you factor this?

Yes, I did. Hence the "-w 0.05" override on my script args, which I really showed for the prices I used.

fair enough
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#8 - 2011-12-01 07:00:09 UTC
Of course you can never eliminate manufacturing time waste (it isn't rounded like material waste), but as a rough guide there is only 1 minute of production time savings possible, and it takes hours of research to save a few seconds of manufacturing time.

i.e. if you need faster manufacturing time, forget P.E. research and buy multiple BPO!

The following is a rough estimate:

Level ~Wastage ~Total
PE 0: 0w 0d 0h 1m 0s = 0w 0d 0h 5m 0s
PE 1: 0w 0d 0h 0m 30s = 0w 0d 0h 4m 30s
PE 2: 0w 0d 0h 0m 20s = 0w 0d 0h 4m 20s
PE 3: 0w 0d 0h 0m 15s = 0w 0d 0h 4m 15s
PE 4: 0w 0d 0h 0m 12s = 0w 0d 0h 4m 12s
PE 5: 0w 0d 0h 0m 10s = 0w 0d 0h 4m 10s
PE 6: 0w 0d 0h 0m 8s = 0w 0d 0h 4m 8s
PE 7: 0w 0d 0h 0m 7s = 0w 0d 0h 4m 7s
PE 8: 0w 0d 0h 0m 6s = 0w 0d 0h 4m 6s
PE 10: 0w 0d 0h 0m 5s = 0w 0d 0h 4m 5s
PE 12: 0w 0d 0h 0m 4s = 0w 0d 0h 4m 4s
PE 15: 0w 0d 0h 0m 3s = 0w 0d 0h 4m 3s
PE 20: 0w 0d 0h 0m 2s = 0w 0d 0h 4m 2s
PE 30: 0w 0d 0h 0m 1s = 0w 0d 0h 4m 1s
PE 60: 0w 0d 0h 0m 0s = 0w 0d 0h 4m 0s (well, less than 0.5 second of waste on 1 run)
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-12-01 07:36:21 UTC
I've got 1 of each in teh cooker right now, was going for 80 ME cos I didn't factor in 5% wastage and did 10%...ah well, teach me to screw up by not paying too much attention at 2am lol.

Thanks for the break down there Tau
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#10 - 2011-12-01 14:42:51 UTC
ME 40 will take you 3d 3h in a POS lab with Metallurgy V. Without any skill in Metallurgy at all, that would be 4d 4h in a POS lab (which has a 0.75 time mult).

PE of 6-10 sounds about right.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#11 - 2011-12-08 03:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
I was WAY off on the production time!

I researched a BPO to P.E. 50 and was very surprised when it came out as 3m. I was expecting 4m 1s.

This seems to mean there is a lot more than 25% production time waste on these BPO. Possibly 70%.

With P.E. 50 and Industry 5 and 0.75 array multiplier, that's 90 seconds a batch.

I'll see if more P.E. research makes a difference.
SencneS
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2011-12-17 21:05:41 UTC  |  Edited by: SencneS
Tau Cabalander wrote:
I was WAY off on the production time!

I researched a BPO to P.E. 50 and was very surprised when it came out as 3m. I was expecting 4m 1s.
This seems to mean there is a lot more than 25% production time waste on these BPO. Possibly 70%.
With P.E. 50 and Industry 5 and 0.75 array multiplier, that's 90 seconds a batch.
I'll see if more P.E. research makes a difference.


I have my BPOs at P.E. 30 and it to is 3m.
Chrukers claims Perfect P.E. is PE 240 and says Perfect PL = 3 minutes, if that is the case PE30 is already there. I know there is seconds that don't show up, but I don't think the production time for 20 extra levels will save much.

You could probably get away with just PE5 on these things. You're not going to save much time or even produce much more per month for perfect efficiency.

I did a months worth in a component array, with a 4% PE Implant (F60).. I could produce 24.453 runs..

That's a LOT of fuel blocks and a LOT of cost.. Even at 20K cost a block, you're looking at almost 20B ISK install job.

And I'd have close to a million blocks.. It's not exactly much concern for speed, because the cost of the unit. I doubt many are going to install 20B ISK Fuel Block Jobs per slot. If you really need more blocks faster, stack up the BPOs rather than dump R&D Time. But for the sake of a little boost, PE5 is as high as you need to go. (about 10 hours)
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
#13 - 2011-12-17 21:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Riley Moore
I have one in research to PE 120. Since I'm not using it at this time and 24th jan is far away I might as well try it. 4days left.

http://zofu.no-ip.de/bpo gives a perfect PE at 120, (3min). I'll try to remember to repost once It's done to see if it's any different.

Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#14 - 2011-12-18 01:00:06 UTC
I've seen P.E. 5 on contracts at 3 minutes, which really means these BPO are under completely different research rules for production time.
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
#15 - 2011-12-18 15:46:11 UTC
CCP have screwed things up, it is rounding figures in the manufacturing time.

eg, I've just checked a Hornet I blueprint and it shows 5 mins on the show info, but when I put a batch of 10 in to build, it's 51min 16 secs which is 307.6 secs which is the figures I had on my spreadsheet.

I've put a bug report in, and hopefully they'll fix it asap Lol it seems the only way you can get the figures is to put them in to manufacture and check it from there. The Show Info is useless for this until it's fixed.
Gumby Ambraelle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2011-12-21 15:48:57 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
mxzf wrote:
Scripting languages are so handy (though I prefer Python myself). How long exactly does it take to research the ME level of the BPO? If you can hit 15 within a day or two, I'd say that's not too bad (a bit annoying to need to research, but not horrible).

3 hours 20 minutes per M.E. level before skills, implants, and lab bonuses. Therefore 2d 2h or less for M.E. 15, and M.E. 40 is 5d 13h 20m or less.

P.E. is the same time, but I wouldn't do more than about P.E. 6.

EDIT: Regarding Python, I don't like languages where whitespace is a part of the syntax. Too much like punchcards I used in highschool on a DEC PDP 11/34 (yes, I'm that old).


I missed the punch cards by 2 years.... but still did my degree on a pdp 11/44 ( hacked it to finishh my senior project on time...)
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#17 - 2011-12-21 18:53:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/calc.php?bpid=4247&me=0&mpe=5&pe=0&ind=5

If you want to play with the numbers.




As an aside, I don't like python, for the whitepace thing. Though in part it's because my editor(by default) uses tabs to maintain indents. which breaks python.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
#18 - 2011-12-22 01:23:46 UTC
While we are on the subject, anyone got a Fuel Block spreadsheet that will help me manage a number of POSes? Would love to put in the month & POS type values and get the breakdown of quantities required.
Any one know of such a spreadsheet? Looked in the obvious places already

I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking
Velicitia
XS Tech
#19 - 2011-12-22 01:49:31 UTC
Klandi wrote:
While we are on the subject, anyone got a Fuel Block spreadsheet that will help me manage a number of POSes? Would love to put in the month & POS type values and get the breakdown of quantities required.
Any one know of such a spreadsheet? Looked in the obvious places already



notsureifserious.jpg

40 blocks/hour for large = 28 800 blocks/month = 144 000 m3
20 for med = 14 400 blocks/month = 72 000 m3
10 for small = 7 200 blocks/month = 36 000 m3



is it seriously hard to take the build needs:

Coolant -- 8
Uranium -- 4
H. Water -- 150
L. Ozone -- 150
Isotopes -- 400
Mech Parts -- 4
Robotics -- 1
Oxygen -- 20

and figure out how much you need from there?

(multiply by 720 for large, 360 for med, 180 for small)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
#20 - 2011-12-22 02:42:42 UTC
PE 120 shows 3mins.

Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524