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Is anyone bowing out of Industry with these new changes?

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Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#101 - 2014-07-24 16:50:39 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Skyneon wrote:

If it's a way to do significant profit people will comeback in this system and your installation cost will go up again. If nobodies comeback that mean your price will be so high than most of people can't/don't pay for it.

So how you will get rich ????


It's cost uncertainty that discourages investment. What CCP seems to have done is ensure all of the idiots who previously factored their minerals as "free" have an open playing field, whilst the people who were serious about running a business in the game, making sure they made a profit and valuing their minerals at market or more when working out costs, have a lot of uncertainty.

The latter just won't build. So the market is now dominated by the former and will be for some considerable time, at least until some tools are available outside of the game.

i will build, because as an overman i am able to price in uncertainty and deal with it, and then capture all the markets you just vacated while doubling my margins

the people who are 'serious' but can't deal with uncertainty aren't serious, they're ocd
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#102 - 2014-07-24 16:51:35 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
So today, I am a newish player, maybe 6 months experience in Eve.

So let's have a look today at the huge profits I can make building an Abaddon, if the UI is to be believed.

~ snip ~

Yeah CCP, your casual high sec builder is going to just love Crius.


I think your word "casual" says a lot here. For the "casual" player building a ship or module here or there, the changes are essentially irrelevant. However, most of us commenting here are NOT "casual" players, we're players who have build businesses over the years into full-time or near-full-time in-game careers. Just up and moving several FREIGHTERS full of materials to another constellation or region really isn't an option every month when Teams move and indexes (massively broken right now) change. That's a key point that you're not seeing: moving and setting up all over again takes time and money, and during that time we're not making new money: we're spending more of it.

Look at the bigger picture here: onesy-twosey isn't what most of us are discussing. Large businesses that are trying to stay afloat *is* what we're discussing.

Edit: looks like the webpage code is screwed up again.


First off, I agree with you.
The serious high sec industrialist is just as dead.

My definition of "casual" does not mean an idiot.
I operate from the assumption that even a casual player will still look at profits / losses when deciding to by / build something.
For the lazy / dumb, no amount of nerfing to high sec would make a difference, as ISK hits like what Crius brought don't factor into their thinking.

But on a slightly different tack, there is zero chance of a new, casual player morphing into a serious industrialist, at least not solo. The barriers to entry are so high now. The cost of researching a BPO alone to anything resembling a profitable level (don't think it can be in most high sec cases) makes the payback rival something like a T2 BPO, in some cases.
Festers Uncle
Shortbus Hauling
#103 - 2014-07-24 17:28:14 UTC
Chirjo Durruti wrote:
Winthorp wrote:

The other bonus to you all bowing out of industry is the system cost index will go down. Pirate

I don't think so. System cost index afaik is directly proportional to sqrt(activity_in_system/activity_in_new_eden) =: cst_idx.
So
lim_{activity_in_new_eden -> activity_in_system} cst_idx -> 1

meaning: if you are the only one producing in your system and a lot of players bow out of industry, the cost index in your system will actually rise.


and I am seeing this in a WH of all places. Each installation job for building has gone up 10%. The first the prices jumped for the same BPC to be installed 10 times from 100K to 180K and back down to 120K there was constant, each cost seemed random. I installed 10 more jobs this morning and each one jumped by 10% starting at 180K on up.... and I am the only builder in this WH.

These installs were cap part runs and I am aware that they will cost more than the lower modules to build, but when you need to use about 25 sets of BPCs to create a Carrier and 50 for a Dread and each install cost is rising at 10% till who knows when, that becomes quite a huge cost on the ship prices. Yes I will make my isk back because I will have to charge more for it on and for the time I am having to haul in an additional 10% minerals for it as well.

With this tell me how it helps the players in the game by them having to pay at a minimum 10% (more like 25% on caps) yet the way to earn is has stayed the same. The bounties have not increased and since you can't refine loot anymore the price for selling metas will drop.

I seriously how is this going to help 95% of the players when for the Rate of Investment vs the Rate of Return to stay the same the prices will have to increase but the way to earn isk hasn't.
Paynus Maiassus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#104 - 2014-07-24 18:37:23 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
you could always shift to Unel, just 7 jumps away in Highsec, and drop your multiplier to 0.76% rather than 5.14%, while staying in a system with a station. 1.29 million.

And a newish player building battleships? Hardly the best plan. Especially as you'll want to research the blueprint.


As for the material costs, that's all ballpark figures. Because how else do you give a figure?


Nah, want Eve to be a game for stupid people. An actually challenging industry schema with variables that must be managed is what all these guys are bitching about. They want an industrial theme park where you just wrap your pea brain around some basic processes and you're done.
Industrious Mistress
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2014-07-24 20:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Industrious Mistress
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Skyneon wrote:

But the real problem is about the market price, everything will cost more and more.


Why do you see prices spiralling upwards?

(installation cost is based off build cost, not sell cost)


And here i thought the CSM was supposed to work for the players and not just a CCP "yes man"...guess my votes for high sec industrial representation was wasted :(

This expansion = EPIC FAIL! I guess CCP can see that too with their subs dropping like rocks...think they will fix it? probably not, they will probably just pander to the Mitani and co...just like always
Zinther Del'Ara
Crysonian
#106 - 2014-07-24 20:17:20 UTC
Industrious Mistress wrote:


And here i thought the CSM was supposed to work for the players and not just a CCP "yes man"...guess my votes for high sec industrial representation was wasted :(

This expansion = EPIC FAIL! I guess CCP can see that too with their subs dropping like rocks...think they will fix it? probably not, they will probably just pander to the Mitani and co...just like always


He has been quite busy doing damage control here on the forums
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#107 - 2014-07-24 20:57:22 UTC
Zinther Del'Ara wrote:
Industrious Mistress wrote:


And here i thought the CSM was supposed to work for the players and not just a CCP "yes man"...guess my votes for high sec industrial representation was wasted :(

This expansion = EPIC FAIL! I guess CCP can see that too with their subs dropping like rocks...think they will fix it? probably not, they will probably just pander to the Mitani and co...just like always


He has been quite busy doing damage control here on the forums



Do I like everything in Crius? Nope. But it's not being walked away from, and it's mostly ui tweaks (Other than invention and RE. those have a proper rework coming)

I'm actually reasonably pleased with the way Crius is working out. (Even if a great deal of the design work was done before I was on the CSM. The core work was all announced before Fanfest, remember.)

Yes, industry isn't as predictable as it was before. But I don't find 'push button, receive bacon' gameplay particularly rewarding. Now there are more meaningful decisions to make.

Any 'damage control' that people think they see me doing, is actually me trying to correct their misunderstandings.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Ginger Barbarella
#108 - 2014-07-24 21:01:30 UTC
Industrious Mistress wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Skyneon wrote:

But the real problem is about the market price, everything will cost more and more.


Why do you see prices spiralling upwards?

(installation cost is based off build cost, not sell cost)


And here i thought the CSM was supposed to work for the players and not just a CCP "yes man"..


Holy crap, you actually thought that?!?!?!!? Bwahahahahahahahaha!!! Lol

And Mittani is actually Chribba on a bad hair day!

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
deeks87 deacon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2014-07-24 21:30:09 UTC
so3ke wrote:
Aineko Macx wrote:
As a lowsec cap builder I'm among the ones hit on multiple fronts by the nerfs. I am stopping that activity for the forseeable future as there is no acceptable way (cost/risk/effort-wise) to go about it.


Yea pretty much this. Anyone who thinks that Lowsec cap building will happen in a POS has serious illusions about this game.

'hey guys lets put a supercap on a moon in lowsec with a 24h timer and everyone with a dscanner can find it.



So that's everyone who plays eve then?

Those who forget the past, are destined to revisit it! use us for all your insurance needs @  http://igc-eve-online-insurance.webs.com
Zinther Del'Ara
Crysonian
#110 - 2014-07-24 21:43:57 UTC
Please tell me the forums didn't just eat my long winded reply Shocked
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#111 - 2014-07-24 21:58:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Shiloh Templeton
Industrious Mistress wrote:
guess my votes for high sec industrial representation was wasted :(
I think Steve is the best candidate to be representing us right now. It's a facilitator role. Provide CCP with knowledgeable input -- and calm the rioting citizens when appropriate. CCP seems to be honestly working hard on fixing problems.

If things haven't settled down in a week we can wail for a Ripard Teg to lead us with pitchfork and torches.
Industrious Mistress
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2014-07-24 22:10:22 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Zinther Del'Ara wrote:
Industrious Mistress wrote:


And here i thought the CSM was supposed to work for the players and not just a CCP "yes man"...guess my votes for high sec industrial representation was wasted :(

This expansion = EPIC FAIL! I guess CCP can see that too with their subs dropping like rocks...think they will fix it? probably not, they will probably just pander to the Mitani and co...just like always


He has been quite busy doing damage control here on the forums



Do I like everything in Crius? Nope. But it's not being walked away from, and it's mostly ui tweaks (Other than invention and RE. those have a proper rework coming)

I'm actually reasonably pleased with the way Crius is working out. (Even if a great deal of the design work was done before I was on the CSM. The core work was all announced before Fanfest, remember.)

Yes, industry isn't as predictable as it was before. But I don't find 'push button, receive bacon' gameplay particularly rewarding. Now there are more meaningful decisions to make.

Any 'damage control' that people think they see me doing, is actually me trying to correct their misunderstandings.



You are correct, most of these changes were made before you got there. I am upset with the changes and the worst UI I have ever seen, (2/3 useless space) and feeling that CCp is trying to force people into nul sec even though they claim this is a sandbox and I snapped , my bad
Zinther Del'Ara
Crysonian
#113 - 2014-07-24 22:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Zinther Del'Ara
Great, both the forums and the client hates me Evil

Quote:
Do I like everything in Crius? Nope. But it's not being walked away from, and it's mostly ui tweaks (Other than invention and RE. those have a proper rework coming)


This isn't about the ui, the new ui is pretty good. Its about an entire profession and some mini-professions getting removed

Quote:
I'm actually reasonably pleased with the way Crius is working out. (Even if a great deal of the design work was done before I was on the CSM. The core work was all announced before Fanfest, remember.)


Wasn't at fanfest ;) I did watch it on youtube though, did read the devblogs and did think it was gonna be positive with perhaps new skills and mini professions. With the usual whining and adapting as always. I did not think industry would be dumbed so far down as it has and that an entire profession/specialization would go away. Is removing specialization on the roadmap? I'm seeing disturbing trends lately - like omni-damage, oversimplification and trying to appeal to a populace we were quite happy without.


Quote:
Yes, industry isn't as predictable as it was before. But I don't find 'push button, receive bacon' gameplay particularly rewarding. Now there are more meaningful decisions to make.

Any 'damage control' that people think they see me doing, is actually me trying to correct their misunderstandings.


It is WAY more predictable than before. now you just have to compare two windows to see if something is worth building, no skills needed. I'm surprised the new interface doesn't glow red if and item can't be sold at profit. Refining at least got that cutesy little exclamation mark.

I know ccp wants us to go to lowsec and nullsec, but it is not happening with this patch - just look at the POS crowd. The only ones benefitting are the mega-alliances. they already have logistics set up, and can now corner the markets in empire, or have us pay rent/protection money to do so ourselves. "as planned" to quote goons, who has, surprise surprise, space for rent. Aww geez, don't want to pay protection money or know the right people? yeah, can't play that part of the game then, no matter what skills or what standing. This week old character in the swarm can make a huehuehu-huge profit though.

The client is to unstable to pvp, do missions or even mine and with industry gone i'm getting pretty fed up with "display driver has stopped working" and the fact that no one wants to talk about it.

Edit: Good thinking to copy before pressing post this time, tried to eat it again - wtf?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#114 - 2014-07-24 23:52:37 UTC
WRT to removing specialization, there's good specialization, and bad specialization.

Bad specialization is like Production Efficiency. Where you have to have it, before you can make any profit.

Good specialization allows you to make more profit, in the same time scale.

Take a look at this thread, and if you have any, throw some ideas into it.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=360465&find=unread


Just to give a little detail of UI changes I would like (no idea if they're viable, but I'm asking):
UInventory style filters for the blueprints. Asset style searching is an option too.
A way to see which teams I've bid on.
A 'compact' view for the top bit. Or just the ability to fold it away, when I'm not using it (like you can do with the bottom bit)



As for the prices, they're not that safe to use to work out if you'll make a profit. Not live data. Just a ballpark approximation.



Quote:

The client is to unstable to pvp, do missions or even mine and with industry gone i'm getting pretty fed up with "display driver has stopped working" and the fact that no one wants to talk about it.

I used to have this problem all the time. I /suspect/ it was related to my graphics card being factory overclocked. After using nvidia inspector to underclock it by 40hz (no noticible effect in any games for it) things became a hell of a lot more stable. If you're using an nvidia card, it might be worth thinking about. It's non persistant, so you'd need to keep applying it.

I had the same kind of crashes to desktop with Bioshock Infinity and Farcry 3. This stopped them.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Slicr
#115 - 2014-07-25 00:22:35 UTC
Currently - I see miners and gankers benefiting from Crius.

Miners - can now get more minerals from refining after training skills (if they have not already).
Gankers - more miners now as some leave industry to mine more

But with the look of possibility less building of ships, prices of ships will go up.
If that is the case, gankers will win out as miners will be hit harder with ship prices, imo.

As far as the crappy reprocessing rate - ugh!!

I believe in being Pro-Active as Opposed to Reactive. Reactive tends to be more costly in time and money.
Skyneon
Mean Corp
Mean Coalition
#116 - 2014-07-25 00:23:35 UTC
People don't see the complete picture of all the last update in this game,

-nerf for the exploration loot
-nerf of the mission loot
-increase of the manufacturing/research cost

.... (maybe i miss some other)


CPP just nerf the isk income of everyone and make the price go up that should be the main concern to everyone. but everyone fight in this own side protect his own activities without take care of all the rest of the game.
Zinther Del'Ara
Crysonian
#117 - 2014-07-25 00:30:02 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
WRT to removing specialization, there's good specialization, and bad specialization.

Bad specialization is like Production Efficiency. Where you have to have it, before you can make any profit.

Good specialization allows you to make more profit, in the same time scale.

Take a look at this thread, and if you have any, throw some ideas into it.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=360465&find=unread


Just to give a little detail of UI changes I would like (no idea if they're viable, but I'm asking):
UInventory style filters for the blueprints. Asset style searching is an option too.
A way to see which teams I've bid on.
A 'compact' view for the top bit. Or just the ability to fold it away, when I'm not using it (like you can do with the bottom bit)



As for the prices, they're not that safe to use to work out if you'll make a profit. Not live data. Just a ballpark approximation.



Quote:

The client is to unstable to pvp, do missions or even mine and with industry gone i'm getting pretty fed up with "display driver has stopped working" and the fact that no one wants to talk about it.

I used to have this problem all the time. I /suspect/ it was related to my graphics card being factory overclocked. After using nvidia inspector to underclock it by 40hz (no noticible effect in any games for it) things became a hell of a lot more stable. If you're using an nvidia card, it might be worth thinking about. It's non persistant, so you'd need to keep applying it.

I had the same kind of crashes to desktop with Bioshock Infinity and Farcry 3. This stopped them.


I'll see if i can input something constructive into the thread when i'm a bit more level headed. I feel the change is somewhat akin to changing mining so that everyone mines the same amount, no matter what. I fear that the way this is going we'll end up with only having spaceship command, gunnery, industry (includes mining) as skills - all in the name of making it more accesible and to draw in more players. What makes eve epic is not that it is easy and forgiving. (had another crash while typing this, after having underclocked by 100 mhz....)

I'll try underclocking the card, it is factory overclocked (Asus HD7850 DCU2 Top)
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#118 - 2014-07-25 00:40:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Zinther Del'Ara wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
WRT to removing specialization, there's good specialization, and bad specialization.

Bad specialization is like Production Efficiency. Where you have to have it, before you can make any profit.

Good specialization allows you to make more profit, in the same time scale.

Take a look at this thread, and if you have any, throw some ideas into it.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=360465&find=unread


Just to give a little detail of UI changes I would like (no idea if they're viable, but I'm asking):
UInventory style filters for the blueprints. Asset style searching is an option too.
A way to see which teams I've bid on.
A 'compact' view for the top bit. Or just the ability to fold it away, when I'm not using it (like you can do with the bottom bit)



As for the prices, they're not that safe to use to work out if you'll make a profit. Not live data. Just a ballpark approximation.



Quote:

The client is to unstable to pvp, do missions or even mine and with industry gone i'm getting pretty fed up with "display driver has stopped working" and the fact that no one wants to talk about it.

I used to have this problem all the time. I /suspect/ it was related to my graphics card being factory overclocked. After using nvidia inspector to underclock it by 40hz (no noticible effect in any games for it) things became a hell of a lot more stable. If you're using an nvidia card, it might be worth thinking about. It's non persistant, so you'd need to keep applying it.

I had the same kind of crashes to desktop with Bioshock Infinity and Farcry 3. This stopped them.


I'll see if i can input something constructive into the thread when i'm a bit more level headed. I feel the change is somewhat akin to changing mining so that everyone mines the same amount, no matter what. I fear that the way this is going we'll end up with only having spaceship command, gunnery, industry (includes mining) as skills - all in the name of making it more accesible and to draw in more players. What makes eve epic is not that it is easy and forgiving. (had another crash while typing this, after having underclocked by 100 mhz....)

I'll try underclocking the card, it is factory overclocked (Asus HD7850 DCU2 Top)


In case it's not obvious, don't use the software I mentioned Blink I'm sure there's something similar out there for AMD Radeon cards.


If you're not having the problem in other games, have you tried turning it over to DX-9 from the launcher options?

Hopefully Probe will be out at some point in the near future, to help with diagnosing this kind of thing.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Zinther Del'Ara
Crysonian
#119 - 2014-07-25 00:52:44 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:


In case it's not obvious, don't use the software I mentioned Blink I'm sure there's something similar out there for AMD Radeon cards.


If you're not having the problem in other games, have you tried turning it over to DX-9 from the launcher options?

Hopefully Probe will be out at some point in the near future, to help with diagnosing this kind of thing.


No worries ;) Running the card at 50% now, just for giggles. already running the client in dx9 mode, all eyecandy turned off, ditto in drivers. Looking forward to probe. - but this is off topic.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#120 - 2014-07-25 02:15:01 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
So today, I am a newish player, maybe 6 months experience in Eve.

So let's have a look today at the huge profits I can make building an Abaddon, if the UI is to be believed.

~ snip ~

Yeah CCP, your casual high sec builder is going to just love Crius.


I think your word "casual" says a lot here. For the "casual" player building a ship or module here or there, the changes are essentially irrelevant. However, most of us commenting here are NOT "casual" players, we're players who have build businesses over the years into full-time or near-full-time in-game careers. Just up and moving several FREIGHTERS full of materials to another constellation or region really isn't an option every month when Teams move and indexes (massively broken right now) change. That's a key point that you're not seeing: moving and setting up all over again takes time and money, and during that time we're not making new money: we're spending more of it.

Look at the bigger picture here: onesy-twosey isn't what most of us are discussing. Large businesses that are trying to stay afloat *is* what we're discussing.

Edit: looks like the webpage code is screwed up again.


First off, I agree with you.
The serious high sec industrialist is just as dead.

My definition of "casual" does not mean an idiot.
I operate from the assumption that even a casual player will still look at profits / losses when deciding to by / build something.
For the lazy / dumb, no amount of nerfing to high sec would make a difference, as ISK hits like what Crius brought don't factor into their thinking.

But on a slightly different tack, there is zero chance of a new, casual player morphing into a serious industrialist, at least not solo. The barriers to entry are so high now. The cost of researching a BPO alone to anything resembling a profitable level (don't think it can be in most high sec cases) makes the payback rival something like a T2 BPO, in some cases.
i disagree with this. Sure there will still be people who will choose not too do it, but my own experience is different. Before virus I thought that industry was not worth my time and simply mined. The changes have gotten me much more interested in this aspect if the game and I have had my industry window open more in the last week than in the last few months. I've retrained my alts and set up orders to start off my T2 production line. I was dissapointed to find out I could only run 10 jobs!