These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

SO CCP finally nerfed Industry

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#41 - 2014-07-23 15:16:32 UTC
Halia Thorak wrote:
I really feel bad for anyone trying to play the game while everything "settles in". Myself like a lot of other industrialists can't be bothered to produce anything while everything


I put some stuff on build yesterday. Just T1 MJD BPs I've picked up doing sites. I have absolutely no idea how much they cost me to make and absolutely no idea how much they sell for. I have no idea whether it would have been better just to sell the minerals. In order to work this out I need a tool. CCP haven't provided me with one.

I'm actually waiting for out of game tools before doing stuff seriously in game.

Think about that for a sec.
Ginger Barbarella
#42 - 2014-07-23 15:17:58 UTC
I've run some manufacturing jobs, and haven't personally seen any of the bugged 150b ISK job costs in high sec. What annoyed me about these changes is essentially the MASSIVE nerf to scrapmetal reprocessing (I used to get a large chunk of my minerals from repro'ing mission loot). I'm also still wondering about the whole Teams thing, given that there is ZERO documentation on how it works (apparently the Teams are for specialized jobs, and not *all* manufacturing runs).

I'm also wondering about the "auction" thing to get Teams to your system: setting aside the increased cost to manufacture in NPC stations (also a nerf), how much does winning an "auction" actually add to the cost of the specialized jobs you want to run? Yeah, if you want to run constant lines for the 30 days (is it even 30 days?), the costs even out, but what about if you don't? Don't bid? Don't take part in the Teams concept?

From what I gather at this point the Teams thing is only for those running CONSTANT lines focused on single classes of objects: combat drones, rigs, sub-capital hulls, etc. For everyone else all we see is increased production costs and no benefit whatsoever to the Teams feature?

On a whiney side-note, I really don't like the massive amount of real estate the new Industry window takes up. Cutesy graphics are fine the first time, but them that big blank space with a vibrating box in the center just gets annoying. I want to see jobs, installations, and am watching the Teams stuff to see what shakes out. I don't care about the cutesy graphics.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#43 - 2014-07-23 15:21:02 UTC
That went well Straight

One would assume that for such a fundamental thing like job installation costs in industry and R&D at least some Q&A would have been done.

But hey, at least the fuel consumption increase is working for jump drive Blink

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#44 - 2014-07-23 15:22:19 UTC
Stop whining. Someone will write an out of game tool to calculate it all for you. That someone won't be employed by CCP.
Ginger Barbarella
#45 - 2014-07-23 15:31:29 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Stop whining. Someone will write an out of game tool to calculate it all for you. That someone won't be employed by CCP.


Love the constructive input there. Keep up the good tro--- I mean work.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#46 - 2014-07-23 16:19:11 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Stop whining. Someone will write an out of game tool to calculate it all for you. That someone won't be employed by CCP.


Love the constructive input there. Keep up the good tro--- I mean work.


I'm trying to encourage CCP to provide industrialists with the tools they need through the medium of sarcasm. Pirate
Kasife Vynneve
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-07-23 18:07:59 UTC
The Skills in question are all 5 bar the respective Ore Specifics skills. (and Faction Station Standings to the required amount) Even with those skills to 5 the gap from what is mined and what is left is still too big. The nerf to Scrapmetal Processing was needed and accepted as being too good for what it did but Regular Ore and Ice would have been fine with a 15% wastage factor.

As it stands the will to mine for personal production has gone out of these players sails as they will have to mine significantly more to maintain the same averages. Not everyone has the ways and means to maintain a POS or have access to a Outpost to get those related bonuses.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2014-07-23 18:18:11 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Banko Mato wrote:
No, job cost calculation is a joke right now, even when the blueprint is in the right facility^^
I currently paused all production because of those totally skewed job cost index values. My full throughput is able to reach about 100 T2 medium ship hulls per day. Applying the current spread of install costs in a POS for said types I get a possible range of 80k ISK in some backwater lowesec system that nobody ever visits some 20 jumps away from everything up to the 10m ISK in every system (including my POS locations) that has at least a handful of other jobs already running. So in other words, the ****-up their algorithm produces would make me waste a billion ISK per day. And that I am not inclined to play along with until it gets fixed.

please continue to throw your toys off the pram so i can jack up my margins on t2 ships even more


.....and here comes the goons forum warriors to fart in every indy thread popping. What took you so long ?

i was literally logging in my titan so that its pilot could install additional build jobs because margins are so damn high already
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#49 - 2014-07-23 18:35:16 UTC
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
The Skills in question are all 5 bar the respective Ore Specifics skills. (and Faction Station Standings to the required amount) Even with those skills to 5 the gap from what is mined and what is left is still too big. The nerf to Scrapmetal Processing was needed and accepted as being too good for what it did but Regular Ore and Ice would have been fine with a 15% wastage factor.

As it stands the will to mine for personal production has gone out of these players sails as they will have to mine significantly more to maintain the same averages. Not everyone has the ways and means to maintain a POS or have access to a Outpost to get those related bonuses.

Don't look at what percentage of the minerals you're getting out of the ore, look at the actual amount of minerals you're getting out of the ore.

You realize that ore content went up too, right? With perfect skills, a 4% implant, and any refining facility above 50%, you'll get more minerals from refining ore now than you did before Crius.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Katherine Raven
ALTA Industries
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#50 - 2014-07-23 18:55:15 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
The Skills in question are all 5 bar the respective Ore Specifics skills. (and Faction Station Standings to the required amount) Even with those skills to 5 the gap from what is mined and what is left is still too big. The nerf to Scrapmetal Processing was needed and accepted as being too good for what it did but Regular Ore and Ice would have been fine with a 15% wastage factor.

As it stands the will to mine for personal production has gone out of these players sails as they will have to mine significantly more to maintain the same averages. Not everyone has the ways and means to maintain a POS or have access to a Outpost to get those related bonuses.

Don't look at what percentage of the minerals you're getting out of the ore, look at the actual amount of minerals you're getting out of the ore.

You realize that ore content went up too, right? With perfect skills, a 4% implant, and any refining facility above 50%, you'll get more minerals from refining ore now than you did before Crius.


It just won't feel like it because of the drop in percentages that you get shown. That being said, there is better refining in low and null, but really, duh, risk vs. reward. Those guys risk life and limb all the time (hahahahaha) so their refining absolutely should be better. Plus those alliances either had to fight for their stations or build them themselves, either way they've earned the better refining. It really seems to me people are only looking at the percentages and losing their ****. I'm not sure on the scrap metal processing, that one might have actually been nerfed, not sure. That being said with the meta module tiercide that's coming up, that mission loot is going to be worth WAY more than the refining ever made.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#51 - 2014-07-23 19:02:24 UTC
Katherine Raven wrote:
That being said, there is better refining in low and null, but really, duh, risk vs. reward. Those guys risk life and limb all the time (hahahahaha) so their refining absolutely should be better.

Even in hisec there's "better" refining. The newly revamped Refinery Array is anchorable in hisec and offers 52% base refine. If you do a large enough volume of refining, that 2% would put a good dent in, if not completely cover, POS fuel costs.

But, again, risk vs reward. A hisec POS risks getting wardecced, but it's safer than a losec POS or a nullsec outpost.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Katherine Raven
ALTA Industries
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#52 - 2014-07-23 19:06:01 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Katherine Raven wrote:
That being said, there is better refining in low and null, but really, duh, risk vs. reward. Those guys risk life and limb all the time (hahahahaha) so their refining absolutely should be better.

Even in hisec there's "better" refining. The newly revamped Refinery Array is anchorable in hisec and offers 52% base refine. If you do a large enough volume of refining, that 2% would put a good dent in, if not completely cover, POS fuel costs.

But, again, risk vs reward. A hisec POS risks getting wardecced, but it's safer than a losec POS or a nullsec outpost.


Yup. It's a way better risk vs. reward model than what we used to have. Before it was "Oh you war dec'd me to attack my research POS? trololololol what a waste of your money."
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#53 - 2014-07-23 19:10:17 UTC
Katherine Raven wrote:
Yup. It's a way better risk vs. reward model than what we used to have. Before it was "Oh you war dec'd me to attack my research POS? trololololol what a waste of your money."

Now that BPOs have to be in a POS to use them, research POSes became both more appealing as targets (more reward), and less appealing for researchers (more risk).

Small Refinery/Compression POSes will likely become common, but be unappealing targets since there is virtually no chance of anything of valuable being stored there. I have a lab anchored at my small production/compression POS, but it's just to research fuel block blueprints and such, which is virtually risk-free.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
RonPaul Rox
Prime Directive.
United Caldari Space Command.
#54 - 2014-07-23 19:55:02 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
I've run some manufacturing jobs, and haven't personally seen any of the bugged 150b ISK job costs in high sec. What annoyed me about these changes is essentially the MASSIVE nerf to scrapmetal reprocessing (I used to get a large chunk of my minerals from repro'ing mission loot). I'm also still wondering about the whole Teams thing, given that there is ZERO documentation on how it works (apparently the Teams are for specialized jobs, and not *all* manufacturing runs).

I'm also wondering about the "auction" thing to get Teams to your system: setting aside the increased cost to manufacture in NPC stations (also a nerf), how much does winning an "auction" actually add to the cost of the specialized jobs you want to run? Yeah, if you want to run constant lines for the 30 days (is it even 30 days?), the costs even out, but what about if you don't? Don't bid? Don't take part in the Teams concept?

From what I gather at this point the Teams thing is only for those running CONSTANT lines focused on single classes of objects: combat drones, rigs, sub-capital hulls, etc. For everyone else all we see is increased production costs and no benefit whatsoever to the Teams feature?

On a whiney side-note, I really don't like the massive amount of real estate the new Industry window takes up. Cutesy graphics are fine the first time, but them that big blank space with a vibrating box in the center just gets annoying. I want to see jobs, installations, and am watching the Teams stuff to see what shakes out. I don't care about the cutesy graphics.


agreed, i play on my TV and so have use a smaller screen resolution, the graphical display at the top is literally 5 times the size of the relevant information i need to compare costs at the bottom. And there's no way to get rid of it! CCP plz allow us to adjust the size of the top part of the industrial display, or at least allow the bottom to be shown seperately.

And the little bar that represents system cost index? seriously? As bad as it is, what little information it provides, you didnt even bother to let us expand it?

http://imgur.com/EGjYLSL
Minerva Arbosa
Spatial Forces
Warped Intentions
#55 - 2014-07-23 21:29:33 UTC
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.

My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.

Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials.


If you do the math and adjust the ratio from current reprocessing rates and batches to the former reprocessing rates and batches assuming you have level 4 in all ore processing skills, reprocessing 5, and reprocessing efficiency 5 you should notice about a 1% increase from the pre-patch. Sounds like refining is getting ahead slightly. Get level 5 in everything and you should see about a 2.5% increase from pre-patch. This is accounting from a 0.54x refinery.
Yurasu Kujiku
Contemptuous Wrath
#56 - 2014-07-24 00:21:53 UTC
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today.


Does that mean you're going to refund everyone's install job cost from yesterday so it's in line with the new prices?




I have seen this question asked in several posts......yet never seen an answer to it from a Dev. I know I am old (pushing 50) and with poor eyesight (Trifocals) but I am pretty sure I did not see that answer.


So Does it mean a refund (Full or Partial) to those who did install jobs at yesterdays costs?
Kasife Vynneve
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-07-24 04:50:53 UTC
Minerva Arbosa wrote:
[
If you do the math and adjust the ratio from current reprocessing rates and batches to the former reprocessing rates and batches assuming you have level 4 in all ore processing skills, reprocessing 5, and reprocessing efficiency 5 you should notice about a 1% increase from the pre-patch. Sounds like refining is getting ahead slightly. Get level 5 in everything and you should see about a 2.5% increase from pre-patch. This is accounting from a 0.54x refinery.


The measure of this is they had a Large batch of Ore pre patch that was the right amount to build something large and for what ever reason it didn't get refined and now Post patch the numbers do not have enough minerals in that batch to cover what was needed.
sPuR Estemaire
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2014-07-24 05:38:29 UTC  |  Edited by: sPuR Estemaire
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.

My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.

Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials.



If they have the related skills to 5, and a 4% implant, they will get the same now, as they did in the past.

It's just that now it's possible to get more, if you have access to an advanced facility.


The skills though don't make any sense., because it says 3% per level at Reprocessing. But it doesn't actually give 3%.

Like my skills are low but for example. I have it at level 3 that is 9%. But what I actually get is more like 4.5% - minus the station tax.

50 x 1.09 that's not 9% more thats 4.5% more. = 54.5%

I don't know if it's suspose to be like that or not. I just thought it was strange.

The numbers add up though because for example if you have a 50% station. 1.09 = 54.5 with a 0.95 tax you end up with 51.7% which gets rounded to 52%

Unless it's just 3% less waste. Then I guess it makes sense. Since it's only half being wasted. :P
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#59 - 2014-07-24 11:38:56 UTC
sPuR Estemaire wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.

My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.

Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials.



If they have the related skills to 5, and a 4% implant, they will get the same now, as they did in the past.

It's just that now it's possible to get more, if you have access to an advanced facility.


The skills though don't make any sense., because it says 3% per level at Reprocessing. But it doesn't actually give 3%.

Like my skills are low but for example. I have it at level 3 that is 9%. But what I actually get is more like 4.5% - minus the station tax.

50 x 1.09 that's not 9% more thats 4.5% more. = 54.5%

I don't know if it's suspose to be like that or not. I just thought it was strange.

The numbers add up though because for example if you have a 50% station. 1.09 = 54.5 with a 0.95 tax you end up with 51.7% which gets rounded to 52%

Unless it's just 3% less waste. Then I guess it makes sense. Since it's only half being wasted. :P


Except it is 9% more. It's 9% more than you'd have if you didn't have the skill. Not 9% more of the maximum it's possible to squeeze out.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Velicitia
XS Tech
#60 - 2014-07-24 12:06:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
sPuR Estemaire wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.

My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.

Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials.



If they have the related skills to 5, and a 4% implant, they will get the same now, as they did in the past.

It's just that now it's possible to get more, if you have access to an advanced facility.


The skills though don't make any sense., because it says 3% per level at Reprocessing. But it doesn't actually give 3%.

Like my skills are low but for example. I have it at level 3 that is 9%. But what I actually get is more like 4.5% - minus the station tax.

50 x 1.09 that's not 9% more thats 4.5% more. = 54.5%

I don't know if it's suspose to be like that or not. I just thought it was strange.

The numbers add up though because for example if you have a 50% station. 1.09 = 54.5 with a 0.95 tax you end up with 51.7% which gets rounded to 52%

Unless it's just 3% less waste. Then I guess it makes sense. Since it's only half being wasted. :P



You're thinking about it wrong. It's not a "9% increase to the numbers" but a "9% increase in your overall yield". A jump from 50 to 59% refining in the display (which I think you're expecting to see?) is actually an 18% increase in yield.


Veldspar = 415 / refine (Base stats)
50% station, no tax, no skills => 415 * 0.5 = 207.5 (FLOOR to 207)
50% station, no tax, +9% Skills => 415 * 0.545 = 226.175 (FLOOR to 226)

That extra 19 trit per refine is an increase of 9.1% over "base".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia