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Science & Industry

 
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Cost scaling - a TOTAL disaster for Science and Industry

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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#41 - 2014-07-23 13:32:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
CCP Greyscale wrote:
We are seeing excessively high costs which I believe are linked to previewing a job in a location that's not actually valid. If you're seeing very high costs, can you confirm whether or not they are set up such that you could actually start them if you wanted to and had the materials?

CCP Greyscale wrote:
Seems to confirm on TQ, if you try to preview manufacturing cost in a facility without a manufacturing capability, the cost is "wrong" (ie gigantic). This is essentially a UI issue, working on a fix for this.

I can verify this. I put up a POS in a system that has an NPC station with no labs. I have a corp office in that station and I had some blueprints both in the office and the POS.

1. Install costs for BPs in the POS was very reasonable.
2. I accidentally clicked on a BP that was in the station (no lab, same system) instead of the POS and the install cost was astronomical (at least 100x more).
3. After I moved said BP to the POS and tried to install it, the install costs were again very reasonable.

So maybe the issue isn't with the install costs, it's with calculated/displayed install costs for BPs in a location without proper facilities to perform the task in question?

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-07-23 13:34:41 UTC
can confirm that makes a massive difference.

minmatar control tower, ME from 7 to 10

11.3b when previewed in a manufacturing station
419m when previewed in a lab in the same system
220m for some lowsec station not far away
Mal Nina
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2014-07-23 14:16:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mal Nina
I have seen massive costs increase.

Just 4 T3 parts BPOs that used to be ME perfect cost me in excess of 70 mil to upgrade from 7 to 10 at my own pos. 36 mil for one, 23 mil, 15 mil and 1 mil. have no idea why the huge spread in costs. (this was yesterday)

From a game design perspective you have some niche production that teams are totally broken on. This is very apparent on low number parts input high value end item production. For example, there is not a team I would hire to make T3s. The best team I could find actually costs me an extra 110,000 for the privilege of using them and that is without the fixed cost of hiring them. I do find it humorous that someone is paying 62 mil for them. Obviously they will not be used in T3 production if they have any common sense.

We also need a solution for how things get paid for as I expressed before the change. Depending on what corporate account you have defaulted ... That is the one that is being charged. This has to be a mess for any corporations bookkeeping. You need a choice of what accounts to use for the charges to produce at your own POS now when you place a job. And a way to default the account to be used. There is also no way to tell who instigated the charges against the corporate accounts. You need to know what players are racking up what charges... not some fictitious NPC organization.



Copy costs are reasonable. Have not tried to invent yet.
Gulch P13
Perkone
Caldari State
#44 - 2014-07-23 16:28:17 UTC
Clara Tironis wrote:

EPIC FAIL!!!!


Did I just time travel back to 2004?
Katherine Raven
ALTA Industries
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#45 - 2014-07-23 16:38:50 UTC
Clara Tironis wrote:
Velators at dawn anyone?

I think I'll name my next (everything but science and industry) corp that.


Confirming Velators at Dawn would be an awesome corp name.

Also, if you actually want to duel in velators message me in game, I'll be online in about 9-10 hours, around 01:00 - 02:00 and I think dueling in velators could be fun.

CCP is looking into the pricing, they suspect it is not actually working as intended. Also, the market prices will adjust with time, you can't just expect to build for the same cost as you could before and sell for profit, we knew the job installation costs would be increasing, so we'll just have to wait till the supplies dry up. You're not the only one who cannot build freighters for profit, which means NO ONE will be building freighters AT ALL. With Code continuing to blow the crap out of freighters, prices should catch up to new manufacturing costs before too long.
SamuelAdams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2014-07-23 16:48:36 UTC
Couldnt all this indy "change" have been done much simpler?
Feck me, I have enough math to deal with at work.
Evil
Katherine Raven
ALTA Industries
Intergalactic Conservation Movement
#47 - 2014-07-23 17:07:50 UTC
I'm actually looking forward to the challenges myself. I'm liking that it will be more complex then before, but simpler to maintain.
Ginger Barbarella
#48 - 2014-07-23 17:09:22 UTC
SamuelAdams wrote:
Couldnt all this indy "change" have been done much simpler?
Feck me, I have enough math to deal with at work.
Evil



CCP has always crowd-sourced the testing of their codebase. :) Sorta like how they crowd-source all of their product documentation.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Ginger Barbarella
#49 - 2014-07-23 17:10:13 UTC
Katherine Raven wrote:
I'm actually looking forward to the challenges myself. I'm liking that it will be more complex then before, but simpler to maintain.


Unnecessary complexity is not a good thing for a product you're charging people for.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Steijn
Quay Industries
#50 - 2014-07-23 17:39:38 UTC
Katherine Raven wrote:
Clara Tironis wrote:
Velators at dawn anyone?

I think I'll name my next (everything but science and industry) corp that.


Confirming Velators at Dawn would be an awesome corp name.

Also, if you actually want to duel in velators message me in game, I'll be online in about 9-10 hours, around 01:00 - 02:00 and I think dueling in velators could be fun.

CCP is looking into the pricing, they suspect it is not actually working as intended. Also, the market prices will adjust with time, you can't just expect to build for the same cost as you could before and sell for profit, we knew the job installation costs would be increasing, so we'll just have to wait till the supplies dry up. You're not the only one who cannot build freighters for profit, which means NO ONE will be building freighters AT ALL. With Code continuing to blow the crap out of freighters, prices should catch up to new manufacturing costs before too long.


another here that has stopped building freighters for now.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2014-07-23 17:42:17 UTC
if i were you i would continue to make freighters. and sell once the market has dried up :)
Meldan Anstian
The Night Crew
#52 - 2014-07-23 17:44:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Meldan Anstian
I am largely not a fan of this expansion.

The pricing and cost issues will work themselves out at some point as the market establishes a new balance. So I am not worried about that.

The job cost bug that is discussed here is troubling. That's a significant item that this expansion implements and to see that it has so many problems with it is not indicative of a well thought out, programmed and tested mechanic.

It was already pretty complex to figure costs and profits out before this expansion, and they constantly changed. Now, you add in this system cost index, shown to us in a red bar. I have not found a way to determine how much hauling a buncha crap from your current system to another system will reduce your installation costs. The bar (in theory) changes from more red to less red - whoopie -and I put that in my spreadsheet how?

Yup, systems less busy are cheaper to produce at. Then you spend more time/money hauling supplies to and products from the remote system. The cost scaling mechanic adds alot of complexity and ends up being largely a wash IMO.

The whole team thing appears to be a fail. There was not a single team available in Metropolis this morning, to do anything, and very few in the whole universe. Adds complexity again and is poorly explained. Team reduces materials by 2%, but costs 6% (of what???) and you have to bid on them? How long does the team work for me? What happens if I have a 2 week job and they work for me for a week?

I do like the new interface, so that's a plus. I like the no more slots thing as well. I really like that you can click on reprocessing and get a estimate of the value of reprocessing and see if it makes sense to reprocess or sell it.

The really important question is..... where can you buy monocle blueprints?
Steijn
Quay Industries
#53 - 2014-07-23 17:45:50 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
if i were you i would continue to make freighters. and sell once the market has dried up :)


not convinced CCP have the price issues sorted out yet.
Clara Tironis
C AND N Enterprises
#54 - 2014-07-23 22:09:03 UTC
At hi-sec POS LSAA just now: 1 run Obelisk manufacturing installation cost (ME -10%) = 5,372,314 ISK

At Hyasyoda lab: TE research 0 to - 20% = 431,247,289 ISK
At Hyasyoda lab: TE research 0 to - 14% = 32,006,635 ISK

I think I can work with these numbers.

Back in station (no industry facilities) the quote for TE 0-20% research on same BPO = 88.839 billion ISK (so useless).
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#55 - 2014-07-23 22:23:19 UTC
Clara Tironis wrote:
At hi-sec POS LSAA just now: 1 run Obelisk manufacturing installation cost (ME -10%) = 5,372,314 ISK

At Hyasyoda lab: TE research 0 to - 20% = 431,247,289 ISK
At Hyasyoda lab: TE research 0 to - 14% = 32,006,635 ISK

I think I can work with these numbers.

Those are bearable [assuming ME is similar].

Thanks for posting your findings.
Chip Yanumano
Blap City
#56 - 2014-07-23 23:30:38 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Seems to confirm on TQ, if you try to preview manufacturing cost in a facility without a manufacturing capability, the cost is "wrong" (ie gigantic). This is essentially a UI issue, working on a fix for this.


It was doing this for invention yesterday. I checked invention cost for t2 trimarks and it came up as 35m. I realized I didn't have the design lab setup yet, and once I did the cost was like 5000isk.
Balaster McNugget
Into The Plasma Inc
#57 - 2014-07-24 01:05:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Balaster McNugget
iat this point, im just looking forward to cashing out on all my BPO's and POS structures that I wont be needing anymore
Zetaomega333
High Flyers
#58 - 2014-07-24 04:05:30 UTC
So before the investment for getting expensive bpos to higher levels, ie capitals was a long time, months per a level or portions of a year. Now ontop of that you have to pay an insane amount of money that will take 5+ years of constant building to even come close to recuping the costs of researching it to the level. I had an archon bpo that was going to cost 7 billion to take to level 10 me. This ballance doesnt seem right, If your going to charge an obscene amount of isk to research somthing to a high level you shouldnt also have to wait forever for it to happen.
Aria Jimbojohnson
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-07-24 05:46:39 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
SamuelAdams wrote:
Couldnt all this indy "change" have been done much simpler?
Feck me, I have enough math to deal with at work.
Evil



CCP has always crowd-sourced the testing of their codebase. :) Sorta like how they crowd-source all of their product documentation.


Crowdsourcing is one thing. Deploying a new build like 2 days before live, crowdsourcing and still launching with most of the reported issues and shortcomings in place? That's a whole 'nother story. ::CCP::
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#60 - 2014-07-24 10:27:13 UTC
Meldan Anstian wrote:

It was already pretty complex to figure costs and profits out before this expansion, and they constantly changed. Now, you add in this system cost index, shown to us in a red bar. I have not found a way to determine how much hauling a buncha crap from your current system to another system will reduce your installation costs. The bar (in theory) changes from more red to less red - whoopie -and I put that in my spreadsheet how?


Precisely. CCP made everything "wow more complex - hehe - a landscape for industry!" but what that "landscape" actually is is a landscape of players out of game pouring over Excel sheets and scratching their heads.