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SO CCP finally nerfed Industry

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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#21 - 2014-07-23 13:22:05 UTC
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.

My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.

Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials.

That's because you could get "perfect refine" with far-less-than-perfect skills under the old system. If you actually dedicate time to training "perfect refine" skills now, you will get a bit more than you did before. (Remember that even though refine rates went down, ore content went up too.)

It's not like they didn't have months of warning to train up their refining skills or anything....

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#22 - 2014-07-23 13:22:29 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.

My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.

Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials.



If they have the related skills to 5, and a 4% implant, they will get the same now, as they did in the past.

It's just that now it's possible to get more, if you have access to an advanced facility.

Is this in an box station or a pos?



to get the same, a regular 50% station.

To get more would be a POS or outpost. (52% in high, 54% in other pos. Minnie outposts can hit 60% base)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Chuck Dgrow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-07-23 13:22:37 UTC
Hello,

Im a indy since what, 3-4 year now. This is my main activity in eve and the change CCP introduced yesterday need to get balanced hard or the whole economy of eve will suffer from it.

1. Invention of module now take almost 7h in a POS up from 1h15. We are passing from 20 possible job (x11 if you use all your research slot) per day to only 3 possible job for the exact same output.

2. Research for those that had POS setup up for researching their own BPO for the monthly fuel cost now need to pay MAJOR fee + the fuel cost for the same result

3. Manufacture now have another variable to calculate to make sure you actually make some kind of profit and that variable is well .... variable and very hard to forecast at the moment. On top of that, perfect ME BPO now require more material then before patch.

Now to make sure you make profit, you need to calculate theses thing :

BPC Copy install cost

Invention install cost x % probability
Datacore Cost x % probability
Decryptor cost x % probability (if used)

Manufacture install cost
Increased Material required cost

Everything in bold represent a cost increase between 25% and 30% for people that was doing all this with no cost in POS. All of that just because you wanted to break the entry barrier in industry for new player ? IMHO, if that was the real goal behind this expansion, you have failed since it will require even more ISK now to start doing industry if you want to compete seriously with other industrialist out there.

Good thing i'm sitting on a couple of bil so i can sit down for a couple week and look at how thing will go in the upcoming week but for sure i wont be producing anything now until the price go up accordingly to the increased cost introduced by this patch.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#24 - 2014-07-23 13:23:32 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today.

Out of curiosity, has this been announced anywhere other than some random S&I Thread? I am seeing a disturbing trend of CCP devs dropping major bombs like this in very informal fashion which results in lots of people not knowing about it.

Good communication is important.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
#25 - 2014-07-23 13:30:11 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today.


Does that mean you're going to refund everyone's install job cost from yesterday so it's in line with the new prices?
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#26 - 2014-07-23 13:31:49 UTC
munitqua wrote:
Correct me if im wrong, but now it will be even more attractive own a POS with manufacturing facilities if NPC station costs are skyrocketing?


It costs a fortune to use your own POS, too.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#27 - 2014-07-23 13:37:58 UTC
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:
munitqua wrote:
Correct me if im wrong, but now it will be even more attractive own a POS with manufacturing facilities if NPC station costs are skyrocketing?


It costs a fortune to use your own POS, too.



Funny. I did a bunch of invention and manufacturing yesterday. Spent maybe 3-4 million across 6 characters.

Depends where you are.

(POS are cheaper, as they don't have the 10% tax on top of the install cost)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#28 - 2014-07-23 13:41:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:
munitqua wrote:
Correct me if im wrong, but now it will be even more attractive own a POS with manufacturing facilities if NPC station costs are skyrocketing?


It costs a fortune to use your own POS, too.



Funny. I did a bunch of invention and manufacturing yesterday. Spent maybe 3-4 million across 6 characters.

Depends where you are.

(POS are cheaper, as they don't have the 10% tax on top of the install cost)


CCP Greyscale mentioned in another S&I thread that the install cost show up differently depending on whether you and the BP in question are in a location with the right facility or no. If the BP is somewhere you can't install the job, the install costs come back astronomically high, but they're fine once you put it in the facility.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#29 - 2014-07-23 13:54:52 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today.

Out of curiosity, has this been announced anywhere other than some random S&I Thread? I am seeing a disturbing trend of CCP devs dropping major bombs like this in very informal fashion which results in lots of people not knowing about it.

Good communication is important.


We discovered and fixed it yesterday. It is in the known issues thread and todays patch notes:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=360020
http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-crius

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Kesker
The Sagan Clan
#30 - 2014-07-23 13:55:10 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.

My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.

Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials.



If they have the related skills to 5, and a 4% implant, they will get the same now, as they did in the past.

It's just that now it's possible to get more, if you have access to an advanced facility.

Is this in an box station or a pos?



to get the same, a regular 50% station.

To get more would be a POS or outpost. (52% in high, 54% in other pos. Minnie outposts can hit 60% base)



BUT THEY NERFED HALF THE REASON TO HAVE A POS!!!

Surely you aren't going to put up a POS to refine your mission loot? The fuel costs alone make that just stupid. A

A small corp just took another kick in the teeth with the changes here.

Fuel costs
Research job costs
BP's in the POS

Too much risk and cost vs reward.
Banko Mato
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2014-07-23 13:55:16 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:
munitqua wrote:
Correct me if im wrong, but now it will be even more attractive own a POS with manufacturing facilities if NPC station costs are skyrocketing?


It costs a fortune to use your own POS, too.



Funny. I did a bunch of invention and manufacturing yesterday. Spent maybe 3-4 million across 6 characters.

Depends where you are.

(POS are cheaper, as they don't have the 10% tax on top of the install cost)


CCP Greyscale mentioned in another S&I thread that the install cost show up differently depending on whether you and the BP in question are in a location with the right facility or no. If the BP is somewhere you can't install the job, the install costs come back astronomically high, but they're fine once you put it in the facility.


No, job cost calculation is a joke right now, even when the blueprint is in the right facility^^
I currently paused all production because of those totally skewed job cost index values. My full throughput is able to reach about 100 T2 medium ship hulls per day. Applying the current spread of install costs in a POS for said types I get a possible range of 80k ISK in some backwater lowesec system that nobody ever visits some 20 jumps away from everything up to the 10m ISK in every system (including my POS locations) that has at least a handful of other jobs already running. So in other words, the ****-up their algorithm produces would make me waste a billion ISK per day. And that I am not inclined to play along with until it gets fixed.
Noblefist stargazer
GO' R0V
Pandemic Horde
#32 - 2014-07-23 14:06:05 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Research job costs were not being calculated correctly, we are fixing them in the patch today.



have servel friends leve eve now industri skills are nef to hard no money to be made anymore you spend 50 mil to make one 1 mil an 1½ days wait time wtf mats are to exspendsive otherwise there is only one thing to do here is make prodution line so you can use 20 alest so you can make same amoudt of isk as people there ratting alest..


sorry to say this eve you guys killing the Industri

so much time spend just to ern for my plex an you guys nef it even more when the market is bad already with all the robots buy an sell in there ?????????????

we have talk ig an people dont vote for this way 19e for a plex to exspendsiv too compair to what other games cost too..
this is not OK sory to say it i belive now eve will lose player becouse of the industri dosen work now,.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2014-07-23 14:06:20 UTC
Banko Mato wrote:
No, job cost calculation is a joke right now, even when the blueprint is in the right facility^^
I currently paused all production because of those totally skewed job cost index values. My full throughput is able to reach about 100 T2 medium ship hulls per day. Applying the current spread of install costs in a POS for said types I get a possible range of 80k ISK in some backwater lowesec system that nobody ever visits some 20 jumps away from everything up to the 10m ISK in every system (including my POS locations) that has at least a handful of other jobs already running. So in other words, the ****-up their algorithm produces would make me waste a billion ISK per day. And that I am not inclined to play along with until it gets fixed.

please continue to throw your toys off the pram so i can jack up my margins on t2 ships even more
Oxide Ammar
#34 - 2014-07-23 14:21:32 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Banko Mato wrote:
No, job cost calculation is a joke right now, even when the blueprint is in the right facility^^
I currently paused all production because of those totally skewed job cost index values. My full throughput is able to reach about 100 T2 medium ship hulls per day. Applying the current spread of install costs in a POS for said types I get a possible range of 80k ISK in some backwater lowesec system that nobody ever visits some 20 jumps away from everything up to the 10m ISK in every system (including my POS locations) that has at least a handful of other jobs already running. So in other words, the ****-up their algorithm produces would make me waste a billion ISK per day. And that I am not inclined to play along with until it gets fixed.

please continue to throw your toys off the pram so i can jack up my margins on t2 ships even more


.....and here comes the goons forum warriors to fart in every indy thread popping. What took you so long ?

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#35 - 2014-07-23 14:22:19 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
We discovered and fixed it yesterday. It is in the known issues thread and todays patch notes:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=360020
http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-crius

Thanks!

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Captain Davy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-07-23 14:51:09 UTC
I am also not have any problem at all.

Manufacturing in a POS on a quiet system and my costs are currently:

Medium Cargohold Optimization: 10k isk per unit (0,7% of item value)

Amarr Fuel block: 3k isk per job (0,46% of batch value)

As for R&D (on the same quiet pos):

Cromorant BPO from TE0 to TE20 (43 days job): 223k isk
R.A.M. Starship Tech BPO from ME0 to ME10 (28 days job): 13k isk
Sustained Shield emmiter from ME0 to ME10 (1d10h job): 2.8k isk.

So guys, stop crying and whining and learn how to play the game.

Good job CCP making industry a activity that players have to use their brains instead of sitting on the thumbs and making insane profits still.
Halia Thorak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-07-23 15:04:37 UTC
I really feel bad for anyone trying to play the game while everything "settles in". Myself like a lot of other industrialists can't be bothered to produce anything while everything is in a state of such stupid flux.

Most of the small markets have all but dried up on most T2 produced goods and the ones that are left are either selling for giant profits... or huge losses because those people aren't doing the math.

CCP next time you decide to change a system like this please heed all of our warning and make sure the system is 100% flushed out before you put it on TQ. You often seem to forget but we are the people who make your internet spaceship game run, without us you have a lot of bored capsuleers.
OldWolf69
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2014-07-23 15:10:52 UTC
Words, numbers, rage, desilusion... but, in few words: expensive building=expensive boats, expensive boats=expensive pew, expensive pew=less pew, less pew=less eve. You don't need to be a genius to understand this. Still you need to be pretty stupid to believe this will improve the game. Lol
Oxide Ammar
#39 - 2014-07-23 15:13:27 UTC
Ok we understand the risk vs. reward and BPOs need to be at POS and all that nonsense. Some one needs to give me an answer .. why the hell I have to keep moving BPCs and BPOs from the labs to whatever assembly array I need to manufacture at ? why can't materials be at assembly arrays and BPs at labs ? dealing with thousands BPs in cans is too much job if you are doing this for multiple jobs everyday and btw there is no way whatsoever to extract the BP from the can while it's setting in the lab hangar unless you out the can in your ship cargo hold then extract there....Really, are you joking ?!!

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Maya Bewell
MorningStar Technology
#40 - 2014-07-23 15:14:29 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
The refining changes are a brutal kick in the teeth.

My own skills are lacking in that area but i know a few people who had Perfect Refining and to lose that much from your haul is a horrible thing, even when they push the related skills to lvl 5 they are still going to be losing out on a substantial chunk of what they have.

Its all well and good to want people to have some wastage but these percentages are way out of line for the time spent getting the materials.

You don't lose out on much if you max your skill use an intensive array and plug in 4% implant



Your comparing like for like , old vs new, internal vs internal. The REAL fact is that you are at a refine, cough reprocessing, disadvantage verse your competitors.

Not actual numbers but if... high is 70% low 72% and null 99% refining rates, the value of a unit of trit varies. Given refining is the base of most manufacturing you are at a cost disadvantage.

The whole yield boost means nothing as thats uniform, the conversion counts.