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Incursions should be in low/null sec
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Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#41 - 2011-12-07 16:07:13 UTC
Cearain wrote:
I have heard that some incursion runners have insane amounts of concord lp. Are you saying this is in addition to the amounts of isk you are calculating?

How much lp do you get?

In highsec, 1400 LP per vanguard. Not a huge amount, but enough that I've basically stopped buying faction ammo from the market.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#42 - 2011-12-07 17:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Tsubutai wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I have heard that some incursion runners have insane amounts of concord lp. Are you saying this is in addition to the amounts of isk you are calculating?

How much lp do you get?

In highsec, 1400 LP per vanguard. Not a huge amount, but enough that I've basically stopped buying faction ammo from the market.



Is a vanguard site one that can be run in 3-5 minutes? If so then if we average 4 minutes then that adds another 21,000 in lp per hour.

Sorry I really don't know about incursions and have to ask basic questions. But if those calculations do not include the lp then this sounds like a pretty good way to make isk in high sec.

Is the lp payout higher for null and low sec?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Eru GoEller
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2011-12-07 21:13:01 UTC
Cearain - Is the lp payout higher for null and low sec?

Yes, both ISK and LP payouts are larger in low/null. Approximately 40% more is being paid out there.
Marcus McTavish
Volcel Police
#44 - 2011-12-07 21:55:20 UTC
Kurogauna wrote:
Incursions should be in low/null sec !

Why ?

isks making without risk = inflation

high isks/hour in empire = less pve'ers in low/null/wh

Like Lvl5 missions, the incursions should be moved in a more dangerous place.

That's all.


1. yes, they may be in low and nullsec, but they all pay the same.... that makes sense

2. Yes, whats the point of risking anything if you dont have to.

3. YES, one billion times yes.

Points:
1. There is almost zero risk
2. Huge ISK Faucet
3. Not much start up isk involved.

Highsec incursions should be worth 60% of the what they are now, Lowsec 80-90% of what they are, and nullsec 100% or possibly a little more.

Why do incursions pay soo much more than level fours, and they are essentially static.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#45 - 2011-12-07 22:06:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
Marcus McTavish wrote:
Kurogauna wrote:
Incursions should be in low/null sec !

Why ?

isks making without risk = inflation

high isks/hour in empire = less pve'ers in low/null/wh

Like Lvl5 missions, the incursions should be moved in a more dangerous place.

That's all.


1. yes, they may be in low and nullsec, but they all pay the same.... that makes sense

2. Yes, whats the point of risking anything if you dont have to.

3. YES, one billion times yes.

Points:
1. There is almost zero risk
2. Huge ISK Faucet
3. Not much start up isk involved.

Highsec incursions should be worth 60% of the what they are now, Lowsec 80-90% of what they are, and nullsec 100% or possibly a little more.

Why do incursions pay soo much more than level fours, and they are essentially static.


Wow. You really have no clue do you? I am sincerely hoping you are a troll or another human being has been lost to insanity.
Incursions pay out more than level 4's because it's a co-operative environment and it takes a pilot to trust his fellow pilots and contrary to your belief it does involve some start up isk. Especially if you want to jump into the high-end league right away or work your way up slowly from the bottom in a t1 battlecruiser (I'd pay to see you try that in highsec).

*knacks a hit on the sarcasm detector and wonders if it works properly*
Marcus McTavish
Volcel Police
#46 - 2011-12-07 22:18:07 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Marcus McTavish wrote:
Kurogauna wrote:
Incursions should be in low/null sec !

Why ?

isks making without risk = inflation

high isks/hour in empire = less pve'ers in low/null/wh

Like Lvl5 missions, the incursions should be moved in a more dangerous place.

That's all.


1. yes, they may be in low and nullsec, but they all pay the same.... that makes sense

2. Yes, whats the point of risking anything if you dont have to.

3. YES, one billion times yes.

Points:
1. There is almost zero risk
2. Huge ISK Faucet
3. Not much start up isk involved.

Highsec incursions should be worth 60% of the what they are now, Lowsec 80-90% of what they are, and nullsec 100% or possibly a little more.

Why do incursions pay soo much more than level fours, and they are essentially static.


Wow. You really have no clue do you? I am sincerely hoping you are a troll or another human being has been lost to insanity.
Incursions pay out more than level 4's because it's a co-operative environment and it takes a pilot to trust his fellow pilots and contrary to your belief it does involve some start up isk. Especially if you want to jump into the high-end league right away or work your way up slowly from the bottom in a t1 battlecruiser (I'd pay to see you try that in highsec).

*knacks a hit on the sarcasm detector and wonders if it works properly*


So you say because you have a family of bears, that it should matter?
You can do level 4' (lol) and 5's as a fleet.

The risk involved does not even come near balancing the reward.

Wormholes normally require groups, yet they have a lot of risk.
You can bot incursions with a few accounts, with no risk, and make so much more, and it would be nonstop.

Trust.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA there are incursion channels that are moderated in game, aka you can trust almost everyone that is established as a member there.

180 million isk maelstrom. big dent in my wallet there lol
My Tengu for wormholes, 2.1 billion, a little bit bigger of a dent.

Try to think and rationalize you thoughts, make sure they are logical, then flip a coin, if its heads, don't bother. This can eliminate the needless cries and complaints of your high-sec incursion-dependent bear.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#47 - 2011-12-07 22:26:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
Marcus McTavish wrote:

So you say because you have a family of bears, that it should matter?
You can do level 4' (lol) and 5's as a fleet.

The risk involved does not even come near balancing the reward.

Wormholes normally require groups, yet they have a lot of risk.
You can bot incursions with a few accounts, with no risk, and make so much more, and it would be nonstop.

Trust.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA there are incursion channels that are moderated in game, aka you can trust almost everyone that is established as a member there.

180 million isk maelstrom. big dent in my wallet there lol
My Tengu for wormholes, 2.1 billion, a little bit bigger of a dent.

Try to think and rationalize you thoughts, make sure they are logical, then flip a coin, if its heads, don't bother. This can eliminate the needless cries and complaints of your high-sec incursion-dependent bear.


*sighs*
Listen, if you wanna discuss whether co-op PVE should pay more/less/same as solo PVE then that is something you discuss with CCP because that's what they have obviously hinted. Group PVE pays more than solo PVE.

Wormhole do require groups, but you can practically do C6 sites in fleets smaller than a vanguard fleet and earn way more isk (I know what I am talking about, I've been there).
If you would listen to what I said. A 180 m isk maelstrom is not gonna be allowed into a "high-end" fleet. Maybe a 200 m t2 logistic, but that's probably it.
The DPS boats are a minimum of 1b. What do you call that, a medium dent?

Moderated channels, BTL Pub is a moderated channel. Hell, I am the moderator there. There's about 900 pilots online at prime time there. Do you consider that safe? Safe enough to trust your 2.1 b isk tengu in any of these 900 pilot's hands?
Or are you hinting towards the closed-close knit groups of say < 80 pilots that fly shiny ships and are quite experienced? I'd like to see you get into one of those with a maelstrom.

I am not even sure why I am discussing this with you, you are obviously arrogant, ignorant and fail at understanding basic logic. Try step out of the little box and look at the bigger picture. Not everything is colored pink, be objective - it'll widen your perspective.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#48 - 2011-12-07 22:33:02 UTC
Marcus McTavish wrote:

Highsec incursions should be worth 60% of the what they are now, Lowsec 80-90% of what they are, and nullsec 100% or possibly a little more.

Why do incursions pay soo much more than level fours, and they are essentially static.



I don't understand why people think pve in low sec is less risky than pve in null sec. Especially when it comes to sov null sec that your alliance owns. It would seem much less risky to do incursions there.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Kel'Tarus
League of Gentlemen Extraordinaire
#49 - 2011-12-07 22:35:19 UTC
I almost lost my 1.5bil Legion the other night, does that offer you a little comfort, Mr. Marcus?

Why fix it if it ain't broken
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#50 - 2011-12-07 22:39:53 UTC
Incursions require teamwork while sanctums, lvl5's and even class 1-3 wh's do not. It makes sense for them to pay more even if they are in high sec. The only issue that may exist is the income difference between high and low/null sec incursions. This however I really know nothing about. So I have nothing to say on it.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Marcus McTavish
Volcel Police
#51 - 2011-12-07 23:02:16 UTC
Kel'Tarus wrote:
I almost lost my 1.5bil Legion the other night, does that offer you a little comfort, Mr. Marcus?


Yes it does, you should never be safe.
Making unbalanced sums of money while being safe is rediculous.

Incursions were a way to appeal to newer players, to get them into the game. However they came in too strong. Overall point:
Why do incursions pay even in a comparable amount to a sanctum, while offering near-zero risk.
Marcus McTavish
Volcel Police
#52 - 2011-12-07 23:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcus McTavish
Kurogauna wrote:

*sighs*
Listen, if you wanna discuss whether co-op PVE should pay more/less/same as solo PVE then that is something you discuss with CCP because that's what they have obviously hinted. Group PVE pays more than solo PVE.

Answer: No Sh**, detective

Wormhole do require groups, but you can practically do C6 sites in fleets smaller than a vanguard fleet and earn way more isk (I know what I am talking about, I've been there).
If you would listen to what I said. A 180 m isk maelstrom is not gonna be allowed into a "high-end" fleet. Maybe a 200 m t2 logistic, but that's probably it.
The DPS boats are a minimum of 1b. What do you call that, a medium dent?

Answer: A C6 can be done with 6-7 RR Tengu, with max pimp-age, costing more than your entire vanguard fleet, while being vulnerable to any number of risks. You have been in a wh, CSB, no one really cares. "High-end" fleet, i was not aware of this, do they card you when you enter the system, are you not allowed to enter the sites? How about a corp, running a site? You can trust them right? Minimum of 1 billion, dent? Scoff scoff scoff, trading is a great source of income. What you don't take into account is that to work in a wh, you need a POS, the whole shebang, plus logistics.

Moderated channels, BTL Pub is a moderated channel. Hell, I am the moderator there. There's about 900 pilots online at prime time there. Do you consider that safe? Safe enough to trust your 2.1 b isk tengu in any of these 900 pilot's hands?
Or are you hinting towards the closed-close knit groups of say < 80 pilots that fly shiny ships and are quite experienced? I'd like to see you get into one of those with a maelstrom.

Answer: Are they going to shoot me? I doubt it, they are apparently flying a shiny ship too, from what you say. Its not like every member is choosing whether i die or live. Yet again, break the mold, for you own group. Ill go ahead and ignore: "that takes so much time", "cant trust anyone" " they are all noobs" and "I dont like it". I think i covered all of the bases.

I am not even sure why I am discussing this with you, you are obviously arrogant, ignorant and fail at understanding basic logic. Try step out of the little box and look at the bigger picture. Not everything is colored pink, be objective - it'll widen your perspective.


You can neither listen nor read can you?
I told you to think about what you were about to say before saying it. I dont care if your the damn mamma bear of incursions, its makes no difference. You are failing to realize the imbalance that is created by high-sec incursions, you fail to realize the broader effects, you fail to realize the simplicity and risk free profits that can be yielded. You fail to take into account the perspective of any other game style in eve. Fail to realize the logic in argument and are unable to create a foundation for your own. For this you are not only arrogant and close-minded you are also hypocritical, and that is your short-coming.

I'm done trying to inject any intelligence or logic further than that which your being can not afford to acknowledge.
Kel'Tarus
League of Gentlemen Extraordinaire
#53 - 2011-12-07 23:40:08 UTC
Gentlemen, this is getting no where. All we do is calling each other unintelligent, ignorant, and illogical. If you really care that much about high sec incursion being too profitable, create a petition with some others who share your idea. And if you are into running incursion, milk the hell out of it before those anti-incursion guys gain enough voice that CCP will have to nerf high sec incursion back to stone age to shut these guys up.

Why fix it if it ain't broken
Eru GoEller
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2011-12-07 23:43:42 UTC
Marcus McTavish wrote:
Kel'Tarus wrote:
I almost lost my 1.5bil Legion the other night, does that offer you a little comfort, Mr. Marcus?


Something......


Why do incursions pay even in a comparable amount to a sanctum, while offering near-zero risk.


It doesn't, a single as in one player can't be paid anything from any Incursion none whatsoever,
which is not the case if he chooses to do a Sanctum solo.

Looks like the solo Sanctum player is being paid more then the solo Incursion player. Working as intended.
Marcus McTavish
Volcel Police
#55 - 2011-12-07 23:49:07 UTC
Eru GoEller wrote:
Marcus McTavish wrote:
Kel'Tarus wrote:
I almost lost my 1.5bil Legion the other night, does that offer you a little comfort, Mr. Marcus?


Something......


Why do incursions pay even in a comparable amount to a sanctum, while offering near-zero risk.


It doesn't, a single as in one player can't be paid anything from any Incursion none whatsoever,
which is not the case if he chooses to do a Sanctum solo.

Looks like the solo Sanctum player is being paid more then the solo Incursion player. Working as intended.


You math, does not compute.

For a single player, yes. This is an MMO, implying a lot of people lol.
try going for the profit 100 incursion runners get, to the profit 100 sanctum runners get.

Statistics require more than one point of data.
If you are trying to say, incursions are a fleet thing, good job, you can point out already noticed details.
Eru GoEller
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2011-12-08 01:03:02 UTC
Marcus McTavish wrote:
Eru GoEller wrote:
Marcus McTavish wrote:
Kel'Tarus wrote:
I almost lost my 1.5bil Legion the other night, does that offer you a little comfort, Mr. Marcus?


Something......


Why do incursions pay even in a comparable amount to a sanctum, while offering near-zero risk.


It doesn't, a single as in one player can't be paid anything from any Incursion none whatsoever,
which is not the case if he chooses to do a Sanctum solo.

Looks like the solo Sanctum player is being paid more then the solo Incursion player. Working as intended.


You math, does not compute.

For a single player, yes. This is an MMO, implying a lot of people lol.
Sure it is, Sanctums tends to be done solo tho. Not that much MMO there.

try going for the profit 100 incursion runners get, to the profit 100 sanctum runners get.
Statistics require more than one point of data.
Out of 100 players doing either Incursions or Sanctums you will have all kind of a variety how they play,
so how to single out which pays the best are rather hard to say.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#57 - 2011-12-08 15:46:28 UTC
Arazel Chainfire wrote:

So, incursions. Incursions in a highend fleet, minimum of a bil or so spend on every non-logi ship, when not competing for sites can finish a site every 3 to 5 minutes. To be competitive, fleets nowadays run with 11 characters on grid, which means payouts are about 9.5mil per site. This means that theoretically, a highend fleet can pull in between 114 and 195mil/hour.



When you add in the lp at about 2.5k per lp then you are getting between 166-247 mill isk per hour for high sec. Wouldn't you agree that is a bit overboard?

I mean I would agree with your figures if they didn't also give special lp with unique items that can also be used in every other lp store except fw and pirate. But when you add that extra 50-60 mill per hour of lp I think we are going from "yeah its a good source of isk" to "this is a bit broken." Drop the lp or at least make it so the lp can't be traded (so incursion runners will kill their own value of their store if they over farm like every other store) and its still probably 2-3xs as much as l4 high sec mission runners.

And by the way team play has nothing to do with being an mmo. Here is a team play game for atari that came out in 1984.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs7KcB_ESro

Team play or solo has nothing to do with being an mmo. MMO is really the opposite of pve. In a perfect mmo your enviorenment would be totally determined by other human players not a computer ai. Whether you experience that enviornment in a team or solo is irrelevant.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Goose99
#58 - 2011-12-08 15:53:24 UTC
LP shop isk sink is necessary to balance out reward isk faucet, making Incursions balanced, unlike the broken hydrants of liquid isk that are Sanctums. Remove Sanctums.Cool
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#59 - 2011-12-08 15:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Goose99 wrote:
LP shop isk sink is necessary to balance out reward isk faucet, making Incursions balanced, unlike the broken hydrants of liquid isk that are Sanctums. Remove Sanctums.Cool



I think that is a good point.

But unlike every other lp store that can be farmed into the ground the incursion lp is immune to this because they can use alomost every other lp store with only a 20% increase in cost.

Actually its not even a 20% increase in cost. Because its only a 20% increase on the actual lp. They do not need to pay more in tags or isk or other items one might need.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Eru GoEller
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2011-12-08 16:11:10 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
LP shop isk sink is necessary to balance out reward isk faucet, making Incursions balanced, unlike the broken hydrants of liquid isk that are Sanctums. Remove Sanctums.Cool



I think that is a good point.

But unlike every other lp store that can be farmed into the ground the incursion lp is immune to this because they can use alomost every other lp store with only a 20% discount.

Not all items are available by just converting Concord LP's. There's the demand for tags that either has to be bought or collected
by running anti-faction missions, which are declined by default by most mission runners.