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Crius Issues

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Author
Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#281 - 2014-07-22 21:38:24 UTC
I've noticed an interesting fact about blueprint research costs.

Amazed at people's claims of billions to research BPOs to 10, I checked some of my own and found similarly high numbers - although I couldn't install these jobs because the station had no such research facilities.

That's when it hit me - upon checking facilities that ARE research ready, the cost drops to the expected ranges of values.

Here's an example. At time of writing I have a Bouncer I BPO with no research. Were I to install it for 10 levels of ME, it'd cost me:

  • 84'841'681 ISK in Dodixie (major area)
  • 84'841'681 ISK in Miroitem (out the way area)
  • 2'661'231 ISK in Doussivitte (a research station)


According to Eveeye maps, Doussivitte has an ME index of 3.13%

2'661'231 is 3.13% of 84'841'681.

Systems without a research index are thus reporting at 100% cost for some reason!

And here's my theory as to how. The system index is calculated with regards to the system's job hours divided by all Job hours, all rooted. For a system with 0 activity, you've got the square root of 0. In itself that should be no concern, but it may just be that the code is reading that, wondering what the hell you're on and somehow defaulting to an answer of 1. If not there, SOMEWHERE along the line, it's being sent to a default of 100%.

Perhaps this is linked to the reports of super high costs. As I suppose, if no jobs have been carried out in systems, setting up a starbase there and attempting such jobs will likely encounter this same brick wall, no?

Just a thought.
Wreck Her
Obliteroid
#282 - 2014-07-22 21:40:02 UTC
Goodbye player run economy, CCP is the driving seat now and it is fueled by PLEX sales.
Because paying subscriptions is just not enough.

Oh yes, this is the Crius Issues Forum:
Selecting a characters portrait and then 'View Full Body' reveals a image with the bottom half of the body missing (PC).
Pavlakakos
W.A.S.P
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#283 - 2014-07-22 21:41:49 UTC
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Pavlakakos wrote:
Ivan Isovich wrote:
Things change. Change with it or become obsolete.


Well, i have always been under the impression that you change something that does not work well and try to improve it. Which apparently here is not the case.

Apart from the new trendy ISK sink (taxes) tell me who will actually benefit from those changes?
Null bears that pay now taxes on their own stations?
Empire bears that will buy a new bpo and throw billions researching them, only to find out that they'll never actually make enough money to break even?

Best part will be in a few months when a coercer with T1 mods will be costing 100 mil and everybody then will be crying about "inflation".

Besides, as i said... being a null station owner, where's my frikking rent from the secure commerce? They take money from the players to do their research in my station, but what do they pay me for having a representative in null? (which is supposed to be lawless and Concord does not exist).

As for obsolete, yes, i am already...... Just waiting for August 18th, when the plex on my 3 accounts expire.

*Edit: Typos (i'm so tilted).


Outposts could easily be Taxed by the Empire. After all you pay SOV fees to who? In order to hold your SOV in "Lawless" space where Concord doesn't Exist. Fee's are paid regardless this is just the Empires now flexing more muscle. It's Not like your space was Free of Cost prior to Crius.


No doubt we pay sov costs. And there were always the insurance company in station, but it was not mandatory to insure your ship.

But we also had the option to control our station the way we like. For example, and i'm not joking on this, i had set the cost on all 30 slots on my upgraded caldari station to 0 ISK installation and 10k/hour. Which means that any visitor could use the slot for the entire month paying 7.2 mil. (and i'm not talking about a cheap T1 ammo bp, but obviously heavier stuff).

What do CCP do now? They simply drive away all the indy characters that came to do business in my station and tell me to "raise taxes" so i keep my income alive. I bet all the people doing research would love me. Well, no way! taxes will be kept at zero.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#284 - 2014-07-22 21:44:04 UTC
You were warned CCP.
Now you reap the whirlwind.
Lady Aesir
Ghost Recon Inc
#285 - 2014-07-22 21:45:44 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
i've noticed on a lot of items when you hover over them are saying ..estimated price : unavailable ...


Could you specify the items, we have seen a couple but more are always useful.

All of the metamaterials from moon processing are showing as estimated price : unavailable
Lady Aesir
Ghost Recon Inc
#286 - 2014-07-22 21:46:34 UTC
Maffia Thug wrote:
I am not sure if this is the right place to post this but, since the update I have a weird graphical issue.

Where there is black on my screen (In Game Client Only) it has a weird red flickering graphical issue.

I would love to not have this. I did not have this before the update.

I am running a PC and all of my settings are on low or disabled.

Thank you.

Change your DirectX to version 9 cures the issue
Dareth Astrar
Astrar Logistics and Engineering
#287 - 2014-07-22 21:47:29 UTC
Capital BPO's that were PE1 prior to patch are now -10%, but those currently in research and coming out at PE1 are -2%, but are still in progress of the 30+ days that they took to research as they were inserted way before patch day. Newly inserted these seem to take 3 hours to get to that state, and we may be 2/3rds the way through the previous cycle only scheduled to get a -2% output??

Do you really think it's fair to keep the jobs in for the same previous duration, but on delivery you're going to give them -2% compared to -10%, even though they were started way before the patch and for far longer duration then the current scheme?

Regarding the whole moving blueprints between arrays at a POS:
To be honest, this should have been simplified years ago. Have every structure inherit from the same base, possibly abstract, class where they require an input, and ensure that any item requiring an input has to have a corporate hanger available for it's input. Have them all draw from the common corporate hanger array at the POS, why is it 25k years into the future you need to go to the solar system to move things from facility A to B, very daft. Take away the individual item capacities and reduce their reduce their requirements (cpu/pg), greatly increase the centralized capacity of the corporate hangar array (as you are ensuring it has to be online for all the others). This not only simplifies this area, but then means you can give a common security element to it in the Corporate Management interface, to allow corp defined security in each hanger section at poses as standard, globally.

Surprised this wasn't done years ago to be honest, but there seems to be great reluctance to touch the POS code, let-alone modify it. Simplify things, which will reduce your maintenance of them and easy both the player interaction with them, and your ability to adjust them in the future. Smile
Jed Clampett
Doomheim
#288 - 2014-07-22 21:47:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jed Clampett
Yeah starting to agree with PVP purists. Balancing PVP+PVE+Industry maybe too complex for CCP to handle.

IdeaMaybe EVE Industry should be split off into its own game independent of EVE Combat. Linked only by market like DUST. Idea

Each game could be simpler to balance and code. PVP servers loading and clients would certainly benefit if all mining and industrial artifacts were removed from their nodes. Belt ganks by PVP game could be like orbital strikes and require assistance of someone in Industry game to target competitive miners.


POS for PVP and Industry games could go in totally separate directions with separate logic.

Idea Maybe toons could portal between different linked games to keep EVE unified after such split into specialized games. Should be just like jump clone now as long as skills are independent.
Dhrastette Lazair
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#289 - 2014-07-22 21:47:59 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
You were warned CCP.
Now you reap the whirlwind.


Suppose you had to be right eventually
DoToo Foo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#290 - 2014-07-22 21:50:02 UTC
CCP Contra wrote:
Fixy FixIT wrote:
When installing a job at a POS, the cost of installing the job is being taken from the Corp Master Wallet........

Surely, this cost should come from the member who is installing the job. Even better if it was deducted from the member and given to the Corp Master Wallet as charge for using corp labs.

Currently its given to Secure Commerce Commission.

Is this intentional or is it a bug ?

Regards.


By Design


CCP Contra, I hope you mean the tax being paid to SCC is by design, but that the tax being taken from the master wallet will be change when jobs no longer need to route through the master wallet.

http://foo-eve.blogspot.com.au/

Fuad Il-Manhous
Restinotia Corp
#291 - 2014-07-22 21:52:01 UTC
T1 BPC's are not being destroyed during the invention process (in a POS).
Takanuro
Eve Faction Trade Exchange
#292 - 2014-07-22 21:53:08 UTC
I have some Capital module BPO's and was looking at the interface for copying. I noticed that on the Show Info for the BPO's the Max Runs Per Copy is set as 1 for all that I have looked at.

I don't think this is correct, my capital component prints seem to have gone up to 40 being allowed, doesn't make sense that capital modules have been cut to 1.

Error or intended?

Yes, we're going to die, but you're coming with us!

Dareth Astrar
Astrar Logistics and Engineering
#293 - 2014-07-22 21:53:45 UTC
Kenneth Skybound wrote:
I've noticed an interesting fact about blueprint research costs.

Amazed at people's claims of billions to research BPOs to 10, I checked some of my own and found similarly high numbers - although I couldn't install these jobs because the station had no such research facilities.

That's when it hit me - upon checking facilities that ARE research ready, the cost drops to the expected ranges of values.

...

Systems without a research index are thus reporting at 100% cost for some reason!

And here's my theory as to how. The system index is calculated with regards to the system's job hours divided by all Job hours, all rooted. For a system with 0 activity, you've got the square root of 0. In itself that should be no concern, but it may just be that the code is reading that, wondering what the hell you're on and somehow defaulting to an answer of 1. If not there, SOMEWHERE along the line, it's being sent to a default of 100%.

Perhaps this is linked to the reports of super high costs. As I suppose, if no jobs have been carried out in systems, setting up a starbase there and attempting such jobs will likely encounter this same brick wall, no?

Just a thought.


Sounds like something someone would do, add a default if a logic check resulted in a condition that shouldn't ever occur, in the programmers mind. Really sounds like a sensible point in the right direction sir, well thought. Smile
Jed Clampett
Doomheim
#294 - 2014-07-22 21:56:00 UTC
Fuad Il-Manhous wrote:
T1 BPC's are not being destroyed during the invention process (in a POS).



New invention process only uses 1 RUN per invention job. Old way used all runs. So now multi-run BPCs are left over until count reaches zero.
Mackenzie Nolen
Doomheim
#295 - 2014-07-22 21:56:52 UTC
Fuad Il-Manhous wrote:
T1 BPC's are not being destroyed during the invention process (in a POS).


Invention now only uses up 1 run from a multi-run BPC. Have you checked the run count?
Miyazaki Hetoshi
Hetoshi Traders Incorporated
Rote Works
#296 - 2014-07-22 21:57:10 UTC
Fuad Il-Manhous wrote:
T1 BPC's are not being destroyed during the invention process (in a POS).



All Inventions default produce the max amount for a single run copy.

for example, an ME10/TE20 Light Missile Launcher 1 Blueprint Copy with a single run, now produces a -2% -4% Light Missile Launcher II Blueprint Copy with 10 runs.

An ME 10 / TE 20 Light Missile Launcher 1 Blueprint Copy with 300 runs, now produces a -2%/-4% Light Missile Launcher II Blueprint Copy with 10 runs, and leaves the T1 BPC with 299 runs remaining.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#297 - 2014-07-22 21:58:22 UTC
Fuad Il-Manhous wrote:
T1 BPC's are not being destroyed during the invention process (in a POS).


Check to see if 1 run per BPC is being removed (assuming they are multiple run BPC's)
Lady Patricia
Pyro Tech Industries
#298 - 2014-07-22 21:59:35 UTC
Quote:
The guiding goal with this translation is "no blueprint gets functionally worse" i.e. the materials needed for a single run should be the same or less after the transition


i just compared a former me 8 / pe 2 rorqual bpo with the new one that has me -9% te -14%
you told us the that nothing gets worse, current state is, that it uses quite a lot more raw materials

example:
pre-patch: 40 Capital Construction Parts
post-patch: 44 Capital Construction Parts

it's not the only thing they need more now
i just looked at all the other capitals and they also need moooore parts to get produced

that realy sucks imho, especialy as capitals need quite some time and planning to get built.

Pyro Tech Industries

The capital production specialists

http://capships.com

Koenaika
B.L.O.O.D.M.O.S.E.S.
#299 - 2014-07-22 22:00:06 UTC
Edlorna Tinebe wrote:
Material research costs appear to be inconsistent. I had a bunch of 5/5 gang link blueprints pre-patch, and they're now 9/18 as they should be. I also have some 0/0 blueprints. When I put one of my 9/18 blueprints in to research that last level of ME, the job costs ~300k ISK. But when I put in one of my 0/0 jobs for all 10 levels, the job costs ~5.6 million ISK. But 9 levels of ME only cost 2.6 million ISK.

So for a BPO going from 0 to 10, that tenth level costs 3 million ISK. For a BPO going from 9 to 10, the tenth level only costs 300k. What the dealio?

EDIT:

I just ran a series of one-level research jobs, and the total cost for doing one level at a time is LESS than the cost of doing a single batch job for the same number of levels. The time required to run the research is staying the same, but the costs for a long job are, so far, higher by a factor of 10.

If you're comparing blueprints for different items, you will have different results. The cost for researching all BPOs is tied to the base price of the item that blueprint makes. So even two blueprints that have the same time needed to research can have very different costs -- for example a 400mm armor plate and a heavy missile BPO have the same rank, but the plate will cost like 10 times more to research because a 400mm plate needs 10x the mineral cost to build.

Additionally, costs and time scale up for each level you research.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#300 - 2014-07-22 22:01:30 UTC
Takanuro wrote:
I have some Capital module BPO's and was looking at the interface for copying. I noticed that on the Show Info for the BPO's the Max Runs Per Copy is set as 1 for all that I have looked at.

I don't think this is correct, my capital component prints seem to have gone up to 40 being allowed, doesn't make sense that capital modules have been cut to 1.

Error or intended?


The soft cap is now 30 days of copying, as opposed to 10 copies, 5 runs per copy.
You can run all kinds of combinations and permutations now with making copies.

Bottom line, if you were thinking of making copies for resale, forget it.
That market is now dead, as copying is ridiculously fast compared to yesterday.