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[Crius] Consolidation feedback thread

First post
Author
Sigras
Conglomo
#101 - 2014-07-20 23:37:57 UTC
Hold on, I just ran the numbers once more, and comparing a ME -1 BPC (before) to an ME +5 BPC (after) Im seeing a 13.48% increase... And that's after using the best team on SISI and in a POS array.

I knew there was going to be some increase but 13.48% ... wow...

Is this intentional? an increase of > 13% on all T2 inventables who's demand exceeds T2 BPO production capabilities?
Careby
#102 - 2014-07-20 23:54:03 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Hold on, I just ran the numbers once more, and comparing a ME -1 BPC (before) to an ME +5 BPC (after) Im seeing a 13.48% increase... And that's after using the best team on SISI and in a POS array.

I knew there was going to be some increase but 13.48% ... wow...

Is this intentional? an increase of > 13% on all T2 inventables who's demand exceeds T2 BPO production capabilities?

Are those numbers from "show info" on the BPC, or from the industry manufacturing UI?
Sigras
Conglomo
#103 - 2014-07-21 03:59:16 UTC
the manufacturing UI in both cases
Sigras
Conglomo
#104 - 2014-07-21 04:08:23 UTC
One additional small thing... In the show info window of a BPO we should be able to click on invent if it invents into something because otherwise we have no way of knowing what skills/datacores/data interface we need to invent it without first getting a BPC to show info on.
Hashi Lebwohl
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#105 - 2014-07-21 09:16:15 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Ydnari wrote:
Salpun wrote:
Ydnari wrote:
Is multiple job delivery going to be fixed before release? Doesn't work on SiSi.

Can select multiple jobs, but hitting deliver only delivers the top one.

Can deliver as many jobs as you like at once on TQ; removing bulk deliver adds a new clickfest.

Does the deliver all button at the bottom work for you? Or are you trying to deliver a sub set.


I didn't see that button since it's not styled like the big flashing DELIVER button that's blinking for attention.

But I want a subset; think corp jobs; not all are mine, don't want to deliver all.


I will check on monday, I was fairly sure that multiple select and deliver was supposed to work like this and in any case it shouldn't be too difficult to implement.


I'm afraid I will not be able to repeat this before launch because of the clone jump cool down.

Could I make a request that the bean counter implants for copying and manufacturing not be both located at slot 8. With the emphasis of this change being on the copying of bpo and manufacturing from bpc this is unhelpful.
Soul Azizora
Unnatural Illuminati
#106 - 2014-07-21 10:32:27 UTC
Not sure if a bug or intended. So figured I'd ask!

Magnetometric Sensor Cluster - ME -9%

Base requirements:

22 Crystalline Carbonide
1 Nanotransistors
2 Hypersynaptic fibres

For ME -9% that then goes to

20.02 Crystalline Carbonide
0.91 Nanotransistors
1.82 Hypersynaptic fibres

So for 1 run that goes to (rounding up)

21 Crystalline Carbonide
1 Nanotransistors
2 Hypersynaptic fibres.

So far so good. That's what the system gives me.

For 1000 runs however the system gives me :

20,020 Crystalline Carbonide
1,000 Nanotransistors <--- Shouldn't this be 910?
1,820 Hypersynaptic Fibres

Is "1" for base requirements treated as a special case and rounded on initial calculation?


Bitter Fremlin
Heimatar Enhanced Fleet Industries
#107 - 2014-07-21 10:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Bitter Fremlin
Soul Azizora wrote:
Is "1" for base requirements treated as a special case and rounded on initial calculation?



If one item requires one "thing" as part of it's base build requirements, it cannot be reduced below one "thing" per item via ME or other "discounts". From the patch notes:

Quote:
Material Efficiency calculations are now applied to the whole jobs, not individual runs...

...Whole and single items will not be affected by this calculation.


Make sense, really.
Bitter Fremlin
Heimatar Enhanced Fleet Industries
#108 - 2014-07-21 11:02:34 UTC
Two of the up-front aims for Crius are Industry accessiblity and spreading Industry out via the "push" from System Cost Index. Yet an absolute SCI value is currently *inaccessible* from game client.

Yes, it will be available via CREST. And I'm sure some nice 3rd parties will make a web page to let non-codeheads search for those values by system name. But if SCI is as important to this release as it appears to be then it should be explicitly shown in the Industry UI and System Info box (and not obfuscated as a scaleless bar).

Some of us got all a-quiver on seeing your original job-cost mockup. That may not be doable, at least by tomorrow, but it would be great if it eventually appeared. In the meantime, supplementing the bar with a numerical value in the Costs tooltip would be a huge help.

Pretty please?
Angie Chatter
#109 - 2014-07-21 11:23:33 UTC
The storage capacity of the "Experimental Laboratory" is way to low, plz increase this to a decent amount, like the other structures.

I would like a increase of factor 10.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#110 - 2014-07-21 11:55:01 UTC
constructum wrote:
so not sure if this has been addressed elsewhere, i looked but couldn't find mention of it.

Pre-Crius t3 blueprints were me 0, pe 0 but had no waste 0% base waste
post crius on t3 prints on the test server are showing a 10% increase in materials. Presumably this the counteraction of the base 10% waste found in all other types of bluepints.

Is this a simply an error in accounting for a blueprint not having 10% base waste

pre crius materials
Fullerene Intercalated Sheets [8]
Fulleroferrocene Power Conduits [2]
Metallofullerene Plating [15]
Nanowire Composites [20]
Neurovisual Output Analyzer [1]
Emergent Neurovisual Interface [1]
R.A.M.- Starship Tech - [15], Damage Per Run: 95.00%

post crius materials
1 x Emergent Neurovisual Interface
9 x Fullerene Intercalated Sheets
17 x Metallofullerene Plating
1 x Neurovisual Output Analyzer
22 x Nanowire Composites
2 x Fulleroferrocene Power Conduits
17 x R.A.M.- Starship Tech


Hah, yeah, OK. I'll have another pass on these.

Sigras wrote:
Hold on, I just ran the numbers once more, and comparing a ME -1 BPC (before) to an ME +5 BPC (after) Im seeing a 13.48% increase... And that's after using the best team on SISI and in a POS array.

I knew there was going to be some increase but 13.48% ... wow...

Is this intentional? an increase of > 13% on all T2 inventables who's demand exceeds T2 BPO production capabilities?


The impact of decryptors is essentially lessened by this change, so yes, ME-decrypted blueprints will have a net increase in materials until we get to the full invention rework.

Soul Azizora wrote:
Not sure if a bug or intended. So figured I'd ask!

Magnetometric Sensor Cluster - ME -9%

Base requirements:

22 Crystalline Carbonide
1 Nanotransistors
2 Hypersynaptic fibres

For ME -9% that then goes to

20.02 Crystalline Carbonide
0.91 Nanotransistors
1.82 Hypersynaptic fibres

So for 1 run that goes to (rounding up)

21 Crystalline Carbonide
1 Nanotransistors
2 Hypersynaptic fibres.

So far so good. That's what the system gives me.

For 1000 runs however the system gives me :

20,020 Crystalline Carbonide
1,000 Nanotransistors <--- Shouldn't this be 910?
1,820 Hypersynaptic Fibres

Is "1" for base requirements treated as a special case and rounded on initial calculation?




Yup, can't go below 1 per run.
Dorijan
W-Space IT Department
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#111 - 2014-07-21 14:52:30 UTC
Yeah just let us breakbalance feature xyz but don't worry, everything will be fixed once we balance that other thing sometime in the next 18 months.
Sentry Girl
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#112 - 2014-07-21 15:09:30 UTC
Sentry Girl wrote:
Sentry Girl wrote:
questions :

- it is being discussed a form of compensation for people that have researched some industry skills that are no longer necessary. How about those who have trained anchoring 5 in order to be able to have pos defenders ? Maybe it could be transformed in some sort of a bonus for turrets ?

- the current change of copy time is quite a hit for those who have expensive titan BPOs because it will crush the market of titan bpcs. Right now copying a titan bpo takes 4 months, after Crius it will be 2 weeks or less, causing an inflation of titan bpcs on contracts, driving the price really low and making a titan bpo... well not worthless but really an useless commodity since it will stop generating any profit esp. compared to its 65 bil+ price. Maybe some changes in titan building should be also taken into account so it will drive up the market again ?



DEV can you please address this as well ? There are quite a few people concerned about almost any lucrative business option from hisec being taken away.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=355092



OK i take you ignoring my questions is an answer in itself - don't care about veteran players and hisec manufacturing.

Thank you.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#113 - 2014-07-21 15:17:40 UTC
Locked down BPOs and their names/stats are barely visible in the new UI "Blueprints" tab. Is it possible to make them a little brighter please?

Also currently on SiSi, some BPOs which are locked down look unlocked in the Industry UI, but locked int he inventory windows. Some inconsistency there.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#114 - 2014-07-21 15:28:59 UTC
Sentry Girl wrote:
Sentry Girl wrote:
Sentry Girl wrote:
questions :

- it is being discussed a form of compensation for people that have researched some industry skills that are no longer necessary. How about those who have trained anchoring 5 in order to be able to have pos defenders ? Maybe it could be transformed in some sort of a bonus for turrets ?

- the current change of copy time is quite a hit for those who have expensive titan BPOs because it will crush the market of titan bpcs. Right now copying a titan bpo takes 4 months, after Crius it will be 2 weeks or less, causing an inflation of titan bpcs on contracts, driving the price really low and making a titan bpo... well not worthless but really an useless commodity since it will stop generating any profit esp. compared to its 65 bil+ price. Maybe some changes in titan building should be also taken into account so it will drive up the market again ?



DEV can you please address this as well ? There are quite a few people concerned about almost any lucrative business option from hisec being taken away.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=355092



OK i take you ignoring my questions is an answer in itself - don't care about veteran players and hisec manufacturing.

Thank you.


We're not specifically special-casing the titan BPC market, no. This is a much smaller subset of players than "veteran players and hisec manufacturing", not least because you (obviously) can't manufacture titans in hisec.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#115 - 2014-07-21 15:32:22 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Sentry Girl wrote:
Sentry Girl wrote:
Sentry Girl wrote:
questions :

- it is being discussed a form of compensation for people that have researched some industry skills that are no longer necessary. How about those who have trained anchoring 5 in order to be able to have pos defenders ? Maybe it could be transformed in some sort of a bonus for turrets ?

- the current change of copy time is quite a hit for those who have expensive titan BPOs because it will crush the market of titan bpcs. Right now copying a titan bpo takes 4 months, after Crius it will be 2 weeks or less, causing an inflation of titan bpcs on contracts, driving the price really low and making a titan bpo... well not worthless but really an useless commodity since it will stop generating any profit esp. compared to its 65 bil+ price. Maybe some changes in titan building should be also taken into account so it will drive up the market again ?



DEV can you please address this as well ? There are quite a few people concerned about almost any lucrative business option from hisec being taken away.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=355092



OK i take you ignoring my questions is an answer in itself - don't care about veteran players and hisec manufacturing.

Thank you.


We're not specifically special-casing the titan BPC market, no. This is a much smaller subset of players than "veteran players and hisec manufacturing", not least because you (obviously) can't manufacture titans in hisec.


Wait, if copying is supposed to take 80% of the build time, why is it only two weeks?

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#116 - 2014-07-21 15:51:53 UTC
Niko Lorenzio wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Sentry Girl wrote:
Sentry Girl wrote:
Sentry Girl wrote:
questions :

- it is being discussed a form of compensation for people that have researched some industry skills that are no longer necessary. How about those who have trained anchoring 5 in order to be able to have pos defenders ? Maybe it could be transformed in some sort of a bonus for turrets ?

- the current change of copy time is quite a hit for those who have expensive titan BPOs because it will crush the market of titan bpcs. Right now copying a titan bpo takes 4 months, after Crius it will be 2 weeks or less, causing an inflation of titan bpcs on contracts, driving the price really low and making a titan bpo... well not worthless but really an useless commodity since it will stop generating any profit esp. compared to its 65 bil+ price. Maybe some changes in titan building should be also taken into account so it will drive up the market again ?



DEV can you please address this as well ? There are quite a few people concerned about almost any lucrative business option from hisec being taken away.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=355092



OK i take you ignoring my questions is an answer in itself - don't care about veteran players and hisec manufacturing.

Thank you.


We're not specifically special-casing the titan BPC market, no. This is a much smaller subset of players than "veteran players and hisec manufacturing", not least because you (obviously) can't manufacture titans in hisec.


Wait, if copying is supposed to take 80% of the build time, why is it only two weeks?


An Avatar should be ~52 days base build vs ~41 days base copy. It's 16 days in a fully-upgraded Gallente outpost, for example, but that's with a reasonably large additional investment (I think 3-figure billions but I've not checked in a while).
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#117 - 2014-07-21 16:00:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenneth Feld
90-100 bil is a good number for a tier 3 outpost

That being said, it is only 22-24 days in a lab
Ema Bane
MAAK Industries
#118 - 2014-07-21 18:49:38 UTC
Trying to maximize my production output, I was used to adjust the amount of runs, when I was remote manufacturing with BPOs, to time them with when I am back at home from work.
Then, I could just deliver the job and directly start a new batch with again an adjusted number of runs for the next time I plan to be on the computer. Rinse and repeat...

For small corps or even one-man corps like mine, there is no way we will put any valuable BPOs into POSs. I can't afford to hire people to help me defend it. I guess the plan is then to do copies in a station and manufacture in a POS with those copies.

My concern is that you can't queue jobs from copies. I will have various run copies but I can't combine them to come to an output date where I plan to be on the computer. Jobs will finish when I am away and I will loose production time.

I hear you saying that with the slots removal, I could just manufacture the BPCs concurrently but I am limited to 11 slots with maxed skills.
So i f I use, let's say, 2 slots instead of 1 to manufacture this product, it is 1 slot less available for a different kind of product.

This is an example of my manufacturing process but I guess people specialized in copies, in TE or ME research will have the same kind of issue.

Playing for a while even if I don't agree with several points on this industry revamp, I am ok with the game changing, evolve or die, but can you give us the tools to properly evolve?

Please, give us the ability to queue jobs to manage our slots usage.
Sentry Girl
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#119 - 2014-07-21 19:50:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentry Girl
CCP Greyscale wrote:
We're not specifically special-casing the titan BPC market, no. This is a much smaller subset of players than "veteran players and hisec manufacturing", not least because you (obviously) can't manufacture titans in hisec.


This is the standard argument. After all you target just one small group but you eventually will target them all at some point, and all of them will received the same "answer" : "most of the other players were not affected the way you are".

More to the point of our current issue, since you suggest that what i do is not a hisec-specific job : how many titan BPOs were ever copied in nullsec ?

And btw you answered just one question out of two.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#120 - 2014-07-21 20:21:03 UTC
Sentry Girl wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
We're not specifically special-casing the titan BPC market, no. This is a much smaller subset of players than "veteran players and hisec manufacturing", not least because you (obviously) can't manufacture titans in hisec.


This is the standard argument. After all you target just one small group but you eventually will target them all at some point, and all of them will received the same "answer" : "most of the other players were not affected the way you are".

More to the point of our current issue, since you suggest that what i do is not a hisec-specific job : how many titan BPOs were ever copied in nullsec ?

And btw you answered just one question out of two.



No one copied in nullsec really, we use BPO's to build as you could build from station and get 3-4 builds in the same time you could make one copy