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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Tired of Pointless Wars...

Author
Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-07-17 17:22:37 UTC
@OP : I'm a peaceful player who doesn't like to agress oher players.
That said, i accept and enjoy EVE as it is, and even if my main activity is to pve, i have learned to at least survive in hostile environment as well. It's fully part of the game, as much as raising your skills or wallet. There are plenty of solutions (a lot of good advices already posted), but you don't seem to wish to make the effort to learn them. Then stay in your station and cry.
Domino Vyse
FeedingMachine
Good Sax
#42 - 2014-07-18 14:20:52 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Fight back you nonce.



This.

I decced a mining corp for the lulz and easy kills. They actually pushed my **** in a little bit. I still won on isk, but it was fun for everyone.
Jimmy O'Shanty
The Westies
#43 - 2014-07-19 00:56:57 UTC
Domino Vyse wrote:
I decced a mining corp for the lulz and easy kills. They actually pushed my **** in a little bit. I still won on isk, but it was fun for everyone.


Did you continue the war or let it expire? Unfortunately for many Industrial corps the reason they don't fight back is to deny the aggressor "content" so to speak. You don't want to have too much fun for everyone or it may never end.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2014-07-21 10:28:33 UTC
Jimmy O'Shanty wrote:
Domino Vyse wrote:
I decced a mining corp for the lulz and easy kills. They actually pushed my **** in a little bit. I still won on isk, but it was fun for everyone.


Did you continue the war or let it expire? Unfortunately for many Industrial corps the reason they don't fight back is to deny the aggressor "content" so to speak. You don't want to have too much fun for everyone or it may never end.



That is a missconception that is spread in eve. For example.. we are among the most dangerous high sec war dec groups. We are NOT going to let you go because you did not undock. THe more annoying you are the more likely we will keep the war going. Some groups we kept it for like 6 monhts. Others that interact and re respectful we are more likely to give them a break.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kathryn Painway
Just a Ride
#45 - 2014-07-24 01:15:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kathryn Painway
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I'll just point out one more time for the record.

EVE is a PVP game. It's not a PVE game. It's designed / coded for one player to shoot another player. If you're trying to make EVE into a PVE game - you will fail. You are paying to play a PVP game - you need to understand that.

This whole thread makes me picture some dude with a pony saddle staring at a cat and saying the cat is all messed up.


Don't most of the people playing this game play it for the PvE? (IE High Sec stuff)


I feel this game is neither PVP or PVE based but both. Many (factoring out miners and folks who want to get into industry full time) begin by learning PVE prior to wetting their whistle in PVP while other heartier folk jump right into PVP with no intent on carebearing. Carebears need combatants and combatants need carebears, it's a symbiotic relationship with the market place being the element that defines both sectors as parts of the whole. So in short, play this game any way you please just be aware of the other parts of the machine and how to best deal with them.

Penis

JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
#46 - 2014-07-24 16:27:30 UTC
Awful corporation leadership is a far greater disservice to Eve's community. Removing struggle as a game mechanic is unhealthy because it allows bad leaders to continue to be terrible.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.

Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#47 - 2014-07-26 23:03:58 UTC
High sec repeat war deccs and the alliances that do them are actually good for the game when you really think about it.

New Eden is a harsh climate to call home, ganks, awox's, thieves, and wars abound, and thats just high security space. with the rise of these alliances you get something you really never had before. Incentive to leave high sec, even if only for 7 days to avoid these mercs. Sure you can sit in station and cry all day about it, but thats just weeding out the weak from the strong or the common from the crafty. You need to be more than average to really thrive in Eve. You cant just sit in station the second danger appears and then cry at it to go away, and theres a difference between that and tactically docking when a massive fleet tries to jump you.

90% or maybe a bit less percent wise, of merc corps will NOT cross the .4 line because they lose the ability to use meta-gaming in their fights. In low or null there is no neutral untouchable logi or ewar, no out of corp bump ship you cant touch because anyone can be shot freely with minimal consequences. And you can bring friends in without the CONCORD intervention or assistance declarations.

They also destroy ships and stop market stagnation, especially in the barge and hauler markets where the supply is high and the demand COULD remain low if they didn't die ( afterall most people dont buy more than 2 of the same type of hauler / barge if they use it regularly, they need to die to force them to buy another ). Gankers provide this same service and teach the valuable lesson of protecting your assets from others, something you need to know how to do in low or null.

On top of that high sec wars teach you ( or are supposed to ) to watch Local, Scout, Stay aligned, and use the watchlist. All valuable skills in the long run.

Ending the wall of text here i say this

The rise of the Mercenary Corps was one of the greatest changes to high sec CCP has made in a while, it helped give people reason to go to lowsec and beyond or even just try it there rather than sit in the chicken coup of high sec hoping a wolf doesn't steal one away in the night. And when you do finally leave that pen:

Welcome to The Real Eve

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Roland Fale
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2014-07-29 05:27:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Roland Fale
Your choices are extremely limited.

you can

1) Dock up. Make your effective game-play strategy vs war declaration to "...Not Play the Game." (regardless of all the chestbeating going on this is what, pretty much, every corp does - either in the form of staying docked/ offline / or avoiding highsec all together)

2) try as best you can to support your activities within an NPC corporation

3) Find refuge in a much larger corp / alliance that operates primarily out of lowsec / nullsec

4) try to become a griefing focused player yourself. buy multiple combat focused accounts / characters. upgrade your PC and buy another 2 monitors.

Fighting back doesn't really work in most cases. A couple players with multiple accounts and a high skill-point stock will destroy many magnitudes their numbers of low skill & industrial focused pilots. This is fact - if it didn't work that way small dedicated wardec corps just wouldn't exist. Take a look at the overall wardec history kills /losses. You tend to find either 0 activity or a varying degree of destruction in favor of the aggressor.

Eve really isn't a game that caters to individual skill in pvp in the traditional sense of 'What is gaming skill?' Traditionally popular online games require hand-eye coordination, fast reflexes, situational awareness, and multitasking. These skills in abundance count for approximately **** compared to the far more effective methodology of tactical knowledge, human resources management, patience, and investment (your time, your ISK, and your real world currency). Furthermore what accounts for "Eve Skill" is applied mostly in preparation and patience rather than action during an actual encounter. Once a ship is pointed in most small scale engagements the result tends to be a foregone conclusion.
Milan Nantucket
Doomheim
#49 - 2014-07-30 20:30:01 UTC
Thorvade wrote:
Ok establishing from the start that I support High sec wars and combat, IF they have a true purpose. I believe they make the game dynamic and give choices meaning and danger.

I do NOT support repetitive and pointless wars that hinder high sec corps from being able to play the game.
If I mission and mine that is my choice. Getting ganked randomly is bad enough, but thats somewhat realistic. Cops are rarely around for muggings and murders. But being forced to NOT be able to play a game that we pay for is pretty ridiculous in the long run. I enjoy the space themes, I enjoy piloting spaceships, I enjoy many of the facets that EVE has to offer. But I do not enjoy sitting in a station spinning waiting for countdown timers to end.
Because thats what happens mostly. Thats the best way to get war decs to end and thats BS. Paying off pirates who are harrasing you seems counter intuitive at best.

If a war has a true purpose, like territory (but thats nullsec), monetary gain (griefing for money), or even because you were slighted.

When you are repeatedly decced by 2 man corps, 1 man corps running multiple accounts, etc etc. This is nothing more than people who are looking for free kills against the squishiest targets they can find, and that wont shoot back.

Its these wars that break high sec corps, scare off new players, and generally give way to nothing more than bullying and people who get their kicks from fighting things that cant shoot back.

This is a thread for specifically and useful arguments.

And yes I might be a carebear in EVE, but Ive served in actual combat in real life so I dont want to hear insults etc etc.


Cool another rl combat veteran...

Since you are a vet and I am a vet then you should know that numbers do count so on the 1 and 2 man corps drop the mining lasers and go shoot that one guy. So two or 3 of you get your war deccer camped and the rest of you go mining. I learned that tactic in boot camp.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#50 - 2014-08-01 06:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
I personally wouldn't admit to being a squishy target that won't shoot back even if the opposition is a single guy. Just sayin'.

I'm not sure what branch of which nation's military responds to attack or the threat of attack by letting the attack happen, refusing to defend itself from additional attacks and just generally disregarding the entire concept of force protection even when the aggressor is a single, already identified individual and the attack in question has 24 hours warning prior to. In the US military we have these things called force protection conditions which we increase if that kind of thing has either happened or is expected to happen, typically it involves arming additional personnel, stationing more armed watches and generally being more ready to respond to hostile action.

If only somehow that concept could be applied to a particular part of this computer game where you always get warning before fighting happens, it doesn't even matter if you get killed anyway and where fighting is fun and entertaining, vice terrifying and deadly.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2014-08-01 10:44:29 UTC
Roland Fale wrote:
Your choices are extremely limited.

you can

1) Dock up. Make your effective game-play strategy vs war declaration to "...Not Play the Game." (regardless of all the chestbeating going on this is what, pretty much, every corp does - either in the form of staying docked/ offline / or avoiding highsec all together)

2) try as best you can to support your activities within an NPC corporation

3) Find refuge in a much larger corp / alliance that operates primarily out of lowsec / nullsec

4) try to become a griefing focused player yourself. buy multiple combat focused accounts / characters. upgrade your PC and buy another 2 monitors.

Fighting back doesn't really work in most cases. A couple players with multiple accounts and a high skill-point stock will destroy many magnitudes their numbers of low skill & industrial focused pilots. This is fact - if it didn't work that way small dedicated wardec corps just wouldn't exist. Take a look at the overall wardec history kills /losses. You tend to find either 0 activity or a varying degree of destruction in favor of the aggressor.

Eve really isn't a game that caters to individual skill in pvp in the traditional sense of 'What is gaming skill?' Traditionally popular online games require hand-eye coordination, fast reflexes, situational awareness, and multitasking. These skills in abundance count for approximately **** compared to the far more effective methodology of tactical knowledge, human resources management, patience, and investment (your time, your ISK, and your real world currency). Furthermore what accounts for "Eve Skill" is applied mostly in preparation and patience rather than action during an actual encounter. Once a ship is pointed in most small scale engagements the result tends to be a foregone conclusion.



ALL WRONG!! ALL SO WRONG.
THe Only thing that works is fightign back. Is the only solution that will have a gain on the long term. The only solution that might give you more fun, teach you to enjoy the game and make you become less of a sitting duck on the future.


ANyone that does as this guy I quoted says, is doomed to be a failure in this game and to be stepped over forever.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#52 - 2014-08-02 01:02:57 UTC
I think the more important part of fighting back is not that it makes the war end, it is that it supplies gameplay for the defender.

When your response to war is to not play the game for the duration of the war you're totally depriving yourself of gameplay in an attempt to deprive the aggressor of content. The entire game is driven by content created by players interacting and becoming involved in conflicts with each other. I don't know why people don't expect and plan for those conflicts.
Alder shiet
The Pheasant Pluckers
#53 - 2014-08-02 15:40:03 UTC
Couple of easy steps for fighting low numbers of High Skilled toons.

1. Spend a day training ECM skills.
2. Undock everyone in cheap and cheerful ECM and drone frigates.
3. Learn to keep your distance out of scram range.
4. Jam and Tracking Disrupt while drones peck to death.

You may get a kill, you may get killed, but it will be a laugh either way and won't cost much. All you need is a few corpmates.

Have fun.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#54 - 2014-08-02 20:37:09 UTC
ECM isn't the best option because it tends to force people to wait out their weapons timers which allows them to jump or dock which is a problem since 99% of engagements take place on gates or stations as they are the only natural choke points.

In a situation where the opponent is likely to attempt escape stuff like nuts and TDC are better.
Alder shiet
The Pheasant Pluckers
#55 - 2014-08-03 08:38:31 UTC
True but extremely frustrating for the Uber War Deccers and good fun for the indie/decced corp. It's all about the fun, otherwise why log in.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#56 - 2014-08-04 23:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
As one of the T3 flying, logistics at having wardeccers in question I can tell you right now that losing a legion is significantly more annoying than being jammed, docking up then undocking in a dual ECCM fit and killing you.
Esme Moya Mencken
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2014-08-05 20:37:03 UTC
An option that hasn't been named...

There is an under-appreciated and somewhat controversial (but also sort of wonderful) alternative for small corps/corps that don't mind a quick disbanding:

Dissolve your corporation. Reform it seconds later with the same name (etc.). It costs 50m ISK to declare war. It costs 1.6m ISK to form a corporation (+ whatever for renting an HQ, posting a recruiting ad , etc). If you don't mind the 20 minute hassle of re-establishing your corporation, it's a lovely and troll-y response to try-hards attempting to inflate their killboards.

The ISK piece of it is sort of icing anyway, right? The guys dec'ing highsec mining corps don't care really about the cost of the dec. They also don't care really about making carebears better players. Carebears who don't want to fight and aren't skilled to fight, thus, have this little disappearing-reappearing trick as an option...for now.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#58 - 2014-08-05 21:22:05 UTC
Thorvade wrote:
I do NOT support repetitive and pointless wars that hinder high sec corps from being able to play the game.


The point is to hinder you.

Thorvade wrote:
If I mission and mine that is my choice. // But I do not enjoy sitting in a station spinning waiting for countdown timers to end.


Spinning your ships is also your choice.

Thorvade wrote:
Paying off pirates who are harrasing you seems counter intuitive at best.


You're either paying in ISK, killmails, or lost playtime. And it's because you allow it. Imagine a gymnasium full of thousands of people, mostly crowded shoulder to shoulder. Now imagine them all pushing and shoving eachother to get more personal space. That's EVE Online. You're letting yourself get shoved, while refusing to shove back out of personal choice, and complaining that you're getting shoved. Shove back.

Thorvade wrote:
Its these wars that break high sec corps, scare off new players, and generally give way to nothing more than bullying and people who get their kicks from fighting things that cant shoot back.


If a corp is going to break over a 1 man corp wardeccing them, or a newbie is gonna quit over losing a mining barge... then the corp would have broken and the newbie quit for any number of other reasons. Actually I think more people quit EVE due to engaging in boring solo PvE burnout than they do from getting griefed.

Thorvade wrote:
And yes I might be a carebear in EVE, but Ive served in actual combat in real life so I dont want to hear insults etc etc.


What you did in real life is not relevant to EVE.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#59 - 2014-08-05 21:30:50 UTC
Thorvade wrote:
Yes I would like to play the game my way or at least as close as I can, just as the rest of you do. Especialy since EVE is touted as a space simulator. Thats why most of us play EVE at all. There was some grand thing or another that led us to the game and kept us playing over a few years.
Forgive me for choosing to participate in something the way I choose to.

The point I was trying to raise is that all to often war decs force corps of people to play the way someone ELSE wants them to play.
Eve is not a pvp or pvp game uniquely its what you choose to make of it. Most of you who run around blowing stuff up (especially those who pvp!) are supported by those who choose PVE activities.

The reason why I choose to argue about wars is all to often these wars serve no other purpose other than harrasment at its most basic form. I cannot play in a function which my character is tuned/designed for so in the end all that achieves is the removal of my playtime. Which when I pay for out of pocket, which means they are taking my money. This is not fun, and a good way to turn people off to this game entirely.

Why is it that carebears rarely engage in pvp? Many reasons exist. Hell maybe some off us just arent good at it. But, most importantly is because we choose not to. Our choice is once again punished and we are forced to play according to someone else's playstyle. So going out at shooting enemy war dec targets doesnt appeal to us. More importantly its rewarding someone else for a way of playing the game, while punishing the other.
If so maybe a way to turn the tide on those corps that war dec randomly.

Give it a option of pilot license revoke and let them get stuck in station or forced to do indy/missioning.
Because thats what is happening. Whats good for the goose is good fo the gander.

In the end PVE and PVP are necessary mechanics, both are needed to make the game run. Thats fine and needed for depth and interaction.

I do understand wars will happen to high sec corps. I have fought in them in the past, and I have even enjoyed it sometimes.
But when they stack up at it becomes more of an grind to even log onto EVE? Thats when something is wrong.




EVE is a sandbox, which means you are subject to non-consensual player interactions every time you undock. You wanting to play your game does not override them wanting to play the game their way. They take steps to play the game the way they want to - you can do the same.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist

Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#60 - 2014-08-05 21:43:02 UTC
Jimmy O'Shanty wrote:
Domino Vyse wrote:
I decced a mining corp for the lulz and easy kills. They actually pushed my **** in a little bit. I still won on isk, but it was fun for everyone.


Did you continue the war or let it expire? Unfortunately for many Industrial corps the reason they don't fight back is to deny the aggressor "content" so to speak. You don't want to have too much fun for everyone or it may never end.


When I was doing HiSec decs, the most fun decs were the ones where they fought back or set up traps to get me. I lost ships sometimes but had an enormous amount of fun.

Decs where the targets try to "deny me content" by staying docked resulted in me employing the same tactic; keeping the dec going and if I was particularly annoyed by the corp, I would stay logged in and docked even when I was not at the computer so they could never feel safe to play (and when they did get used to my presence and undocked to run a mission, I was right there to get them. :) )

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist