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Rorqual - I missed the fanfest stream.

First post First post
Author
Rialen
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#161 - 2014-07-18 02:38:47 UTC
Zhul Chembull wrote:
I have been at this game since its inception pretty much. The rorqual is an interesting ship with a lot of benefits, however the changes in the Crius leads me to believe the best thing we can do with it will be as follows.

Rorqual Purposed Changes:

Non-Siege

A: Capital Strip Miners. This only makes sense and was I originally thought the rorqual would be. Take it in the belt and make it happen. While industrial mode it crushes all ore in its hold into squares.

B: Make it immune to E-WAR. Similar to Supers it can not be locked down, however it is still susceptible to hot drops as being in siege mode would still make you a squishy.

C: Add slight defense bonuses to miners in surrounding area. Honestly, its drone damage at level V is already pretty nasty and no rats or small ships in their right mind would

-Sieged -

20 percent bonus to miners shield
20 percent bonus to drone damage to all mining ships
-mining bonuses of course.
-Constantly crushes ore and puts it in squares.


Just a few ideas. Other than that it stays in a POS as far as I am concerned.


I don't believe there is a need for B or C.

Capital strip miners which has higher yield + longer range to cover a lot of the rocks in belts is all that is necessary.
If you keep the ship moving in a direction to a destination you are warping to, you can still instant warp. Basically start from one end of the belt, move to other end and setup warp out points at either end of the belt so you can instant warp.

The danger will come from being caught while you are still warping to a belt.
Zhul Chembull
Universalis Imperium
The Bastion
#162 - 2014-07-18 13:06:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhul Chembull
Without some way to begin to warp out, every rorqual will be caught. Anyone that has mined in 0.0 for anytime knows this. I purpose making it immune to EW. It can still be hot dropped however but at least you have a chance. Without something like that, just keep it in the POS otherwise it makes good kill mail. Believe me PL hot dropped me at a POS and still ate me within a few seconds.
Rialen
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#163 - 2014-07-19 01:57:21 UTC
it will only be caught if it starts warp from 0m/s when a neut jump in.

If you had it aligned and moving at warp speed it is an instant warp. The only time it can get caught is if it was turning around to align or if it was in warp to the belt when neuts / reds came in, both of which are short period of time and a luck of the draw thing. As long as the capital strip miner has a long range, I don't think there is a need for an immune to e-war/scram.

It does require a more active mining as you need to constantly change alignment to get out, but you can see it as a way to prevent botting....
Axure Abbacus
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#164 - 2014-07-19 02:11:23 UTC
The Rorqual was conceived and designed by Outer Ring Excavations in response to a growing need for capital industry platforms with the ability to support and sustain large-scale mining operations in uninhabited areas of space. The concept of uninhabited space is outdated at best. Uninhabitable space is far more common. Something like this might make it a viable concept of a Rorqual in belt.

Looking at the Rorqual and it could use +225 cpu,+1High slot, 2 Turret hard-points , +2 low slots, -1000s from Capacitor Recharge, add 2.75 ly to Jump Range, 25% Reduction in Fuel use. Remove the "Industry only" tag from its Ship Maintenance Bay. Increase Building Material Requirements by 20%, Hit points by 15% reduce Signature radius by 5% Add 100 m3 to drone capacity

20% reduction on cost of and cycle time of activation of Industrial core per level.
5% bonus to Capital Turret Damage per level
10% bonus to mining foreman links when Industrial core is active
50% bonus to range to capital Remote shield transporter per level
5000m to drone control range per level
20% to drone hit points and damage per level

Role Bonus
*Can Fit Covert Cynosural Field Generator and covert Jump Portal Generator
*Can Fit Jump Portal Generator and Clone Vat Bay
*Can Use 3 Warfare link modules simultaneously
+2 warp core strength
100% bonus to overheating Resistance Modules and Local and Remote Repair Modules

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Zhul Chembull
Universalis Imperium
The Bastion
#165 - 2014-07-19 14:01:43 UTC
Rialen wrote:
it will only be caught if it starts warp from 0m/s when a neut jump in.

If you had it aligned and moving at warp speed it is an instant warp. The only time it can get caught is if it was turning around to align or if it was in warp to the belt when neuts / reds came in, both of which are short period of time and a luck of the draw thing. As long as the capital strip miner has a long range, I don't think there is a need for an immune to e-war/scram.

It does require a more active mining as you need to constantly change alignment to get out, but you can see it as a way to prevent botting....



lol.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#166 - 2014-07-19 18:51:48 UTC
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Rialen wrote:
it will only be caught if it starts warp from 0m/s when a neut jump in.

If you had it aligned and moving at warp speed it is an instant warp. The only time it can get caught is if it was turning around to align or if it was in warp to the belt when neuts / reds came in, both of which are short period of time and a luck of the draw thing. As long as the capital strip miner has a long range, I don't think there is a need for an immune to e-war/scram.

It does require a more active mining as you need to constantly change alignment to get out, but you can see it as a way to prevent botting....

lol.

Ya, I sometimes wonder if I'm the only actual Rorqual owner in these sort of threads.
Zhul Chembull
Universalis Imperium
The Bastion
#167 - 2014-07-19 19:54:03 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Rialen wrote:
it will only be caught if it starts warp from 0m/s when a neut jump in.

If you had it aligned and moving at warp speed it is an instant warp. The only time it can get caught is if it was turning around to align or if it was in warp to the belt when neuts / reds came in, both of which are short period of time and a luck of the draw thing. As long as the capital strip miner has a long range, I don't think there is a need for an immune to e-war/scram.

It does require a more active mining as you need to constantly change alignment to get out, but you can see it as a way to prevent botting....

lol.

Ya, I sometimes wonder if I'm the only actual Rorqual owner in these sort of threads.


I have thought the same thing often times. I am not suggesting that my ideas are in any way great ones, they are simply ideas and observations after many years of play. I can tell this thread that any rorqual driver short of having EW invul, will NEVER fly that thing into an ore belt.

For the seasoned rorqual drivers we live by simple rules

1: Do not fly in the belts. Do not fly in belts. DO NOT FLY IN BELTS.
2: Do not warp to cyno lights when there is a neut in system (yes I learned this the painful way).
3: Make sure when you go into siege mode you didn't bounce off one of your POS structures, (I once looked up and was 50k from the POS in siege mode chugging along).

Even if they do put something groovy on the rorqual like capital strip miners but no immunity or protection from EW, 99% of your rorqual drivers will stay in the POS. Years have taught us that anything outside the POS you are ham at a wolf dinner. If they remove the ability that rorquals can only boost in belts, most of us veterans will sell this big contraption and get us the Orca to chug around in. It almost seems like an industrial sin to lose a rorqual.
Axure Abbacus
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#168 - 2014-07-19 20:26:16 UTC
1,180,000 metric tons does not just instant warp. Even being 200km off of a belt is not a great idea which i believe is the idea of having a capital tractor beam. So no, I haven't seen anything yet that makes me trade my Orca for a Rorqual. The math isn't there for me.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Baron Avo
Promethean Foundation
#169 - 2014-07-20 01:00:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Baron Avo
Problem: Rorquals won't go to belts 'cause indy pilots are very conservative and don't like getting killed
Solution: Make risking your Rorqual more attractive
Win #1: Rorquals will go to belts
Win #2: There will be Rorquals in belts to gank

My idea is a rehash, I'm sure, of many others before, but hopefully with a twist or two.

Capital Ore Chomper (yeah, a better name would be nice)
- Automatically targets asteroids, tractors them to the ship, then casts a special warp field around them that transfers them directly into the ore bay.
- Max of two high-slot modules
- Only fits on the Rorqual
- Siege mode NOT required and also no longer required for boosts
- Only works with asteroids of 400m in diameter or smaller
- Auto-targets asteroids
- No crystals
- Does not work on Mercoxit
- Capital Ore Crusher skill required. Adds Range, Tractor Speed and Chomp Speed per level
- Slider control for Asteroid size: Smaller or Bigger first
- Slider control for Range: Close or Far first.

Goal would be for each module to mine about as much as a max-skilled Skiff

With this ability, you could mine with a fleet, have your Hulks/Macks mine the big 'roids, vacuum up the little ones with the Rorqual, and boost at the same time. Probably exactly what the game designers had in mind when they first designed the ship eons ago.

But, this is too easy! It will encourage AFK mining. Botting! If a Hulk could do this, sure. But, for a Rorqual, I don't think so. See Win #2 above.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#170 - 2014-07-20 01:12:27 UTC
Baron Avo wrote:
Problem: Rorquals won't go to belts 'cause indy pilots are very conservative and don't like getting killed
Solution: Make risking your Rorqual more attractive


Baron, you're making a category error here. Indy pilots aren't in the category "willing to risk it at the right price", they're in the category, "losing it is an embarrassment, even if it's a Retriever". The fact that so much embarrassment happens in Eve on a daily basis is not an indication of a pilot's willingness to risk.

Over the years I've been playing Eve people have continually made this error, especially around ideas to make low sec more attractive. My idea about that (a different thread I'm sure), i.e. Viceroys, seemed to go nowhere :p. Anyway, all I will say is that in many null locations putting a capital into a belt to mine would be banned. That is if the sov holder cares about his reputation and doesn't want to attract every red cloaky camper and hot-dropper in New Eden into his space.


Axure Abbacus
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#171 - 2014-07-20 16:47:45 UTC
Some how, I doubt CCP'S answer will be making the Rorqual a botting monster. It is amusing that the idea of "how can we make the Rorqual relevant in eve" keeps turning to "how can we make Rorqual's explode". If making loss mails is the main goal then CCP can adjust the Insurance payout to 150%. Then, YAY, the Rorqual is totally fixed now. All battle Rorquals warp to zero at the belts.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
#172 - 2014-07-20 18:05:49 UTC
Miners are actually less risk averse than PvPers. In general fleet commanders will only commit a fleet to battle when their fleet comp can overwhelm enemy reps and the enemy's alpha cannot overwhelm his fleet's reps. Battles of attrition are very rare in Eve and the prominence of doctrines based on alpha strikes means that most battles resulting in a victor completely routing an emery with few or no casualties or causing significant enough casualties that the losing team disengages. Also, that the majority of fighting in Eve consists of combat fleets camping and ganking non-combat vessels and fleets further contributes to the fact that PvPers are generally the most risk averse group in the game.

Thus, what currently stands for acceptable risk vs. reward is the miner risking his assets to get ISK by subjecting them to the threat of PvP and the PvPer accepting no risk by being the party that chooses to engage or not. Therefore, an acceptable situation for the Rorqual to function in a belt would be to effectively make the Rorqual unkillable in a belt and to boot give it the ability to offer substantial protection and multiplication of combat power to the mining vessels it supports.

My idea that gives a potential expression of such a result is here.

I have noticed a number of the more recent posters on this thread posting ideas as if they hadn't read my idea. I know it's a bit long. Please read.
Axure Abbacus
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#173 - 2014-07-20 19:01:50 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:


Thus, what currently stands for acceptable risk vs. reward is the miner risking his assets to get ISK by subjecting them to the threat of PvP and the PvPer accepting no risk by being the party that chooses to engage or not. Therefore, an acceptable situation for the Rorqual to function in a belt would be to effectively make the Rorqual unkillable in a belt and to boot give it the ability to offer substantial protection and multiplication of combat power to the mining vessels it supports.

My idea that gives a potential expression of such a result is here.

I have noticed a number of the more recent posters on this thread posting ideas as if they hadn't read my idea. I know it's a bit long. Please read.

The issue I see with your concept is that the more drastic the change idea the less likely it is and the more likely it turns into a bad genie wish. Your idea could be condensed down from TL/DR, to a few adjustments or reworks of role bonuses. Less is more. Take a good look at the hows/ why of the tiercide changes or the Kronus ship changes. it could be more like this;

ECM AOE GOD MODE BUBBLE!!!---> 50% RANGE BONUS TO ECM BURST, PER LEVEL ECM STRENGTH PER LEVEL.
SMARTBOMB GOD MODE---> 100% DAMAGE BONUS PER LEVEL, 100% RATE OF FIRE PER LEVEL , -50 % OPTIMAL RANGE PER LEVEL.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2014-07-20 23:34:54 UTC
Lose the siege mode if you want Rorquals to be used in belts. No-one is ever going to siege a Rorq in a belt, ever.

Also would giving the Rorqual a 250km ranged cyno jammer while sieged make it overpowered or would it not make a difference? I'm not well educated in capital PVP ships.

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Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
#175 - 2014-07-20 23:35:29 UTC
Axure Abbacus wrote:
Paynus Maiassus wrote:


Thus, what currently stands for acceptable risk vs. reward is the miner risking his assets to get ISK by subjecting them to the threat of PvP and the PvPer accepting no risk by being the party that chooses to engage or not. Therefore, an acceptable situation for the Rorqual to function in a belt would be to effectively make the Rorqual unkillable in a belt and to boot give it the ability to offer substantial protection and multiplication of combat power to the mining vessels it supports.

My idea that gives a potential expression of such a result is here.

I have noticed a number of the more recent posters on this thread posting ideas as if they hadn't read my idea. I know it's a bit long. Please read.

The issue I see with your concept is that the more drastic the change idea the less likely it is and the more likely it turns into a bad genie wish. Your idea could be condensed down from TL/DR, to a few adjustments or reworks of role bonuses. Less is more. Take a good look at the hows/ why of the tiercide changes or the Kronus ship changes. it could be more like this;

ECM AOE GOD MODE BUBBLE!!!---> 50% RANGE BONUS TO ECM BURST, PER LEVEL ECM STRENGTH PER LEVEL.
SMARTBOMB GOD MODE---> 100% DAMAGE BONUS PER LEVEL, 100% RATE OF FIRE PER LEVEL , -50 % OPTIMAL RANGE PER LEVEL.


Well there is some truth to this and if the idea ends up contributing to what they do then it is likely that some kind of workaround like yours ends up being the case. But your simple workaround misses some key points. Like making the exhumers in your fleet immune to the smart bomb effect. Or making the smart bomb/ECM effect only usable in belts in order to prevent the ship from being exploitable by crafty players who want to use the Rorq in a variety of fleet situations, and connecting the ECM and smart bomb effect to the siege mode, meaning the siege (and other bonuses associated with it like the mining link bonuses) is only usable in belts, so the Rorq won't be very useful in a POS.

So basically, your simple set of adjustments won't exactly do the trick that I was looking for, but yeah I get your point.

However, from the way I see it, all the code they would need is pretty much already there. For instant, you can't lock anything if you're in a POS bubble so that code could be ported to the siege field I recommend. Really the only labor intensive part of setting up the field I recommended was the graphic effect I was looking for, the 'shimmering red cloud' which would really only be there to make the Rorq's siege, already just about the coolest siege in the game with it's verticalization, unfolding, and flame jets, even cooler looking. That could be scrapped. But honestly, an ECM/smartbomb field should not be hugely technically advanced.

But yeah, they might opt for implementing a bonus set that accomplishes more or less the same thing. It's just that the key to the workability of it is that the effect be tied to siege which is only usable in belts. otherwise you'd find smart bombing invulnerable Rorquals station camping people and otherwise being an overpowered combat monster used in ways that have nothing to do with deep space mining. If you're going to ask for a God mode it has to be highly restricted in the situations where it can be implemented. So actually, my idea of tieing all the effects to the siege in the form of a bundle and having it only work in belts actually gives it a greater possibility of being implemented than just giving it some huge bonuses that could potentially be exploited outside of the developers' intent. Also, in a post above I pointed out that a Rorqual god mode in the form of a POS bubble around the ship had been previously contemplated and was shot down because of the technical challenges, not simply because it was a god mode. So something like my idea could be implemented, I think. Also in another post I begged for more Dev and CSM input on their reactions to these ideas (hoping that I would get their reaction to mine). So hopefully we'll get an idea of where we should be channeling our energies. Until then, though, I don't see why my idea wouldn't be workable.
Axure Abbacus
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#176 - 2014-07-21 03:57:04 UTC

Lose the siege mode if you want Rorquals to be used in belts. No-one is ever going to siege a Rorq in a belt, ever.

The siege/ Industrial core module is a large part of the problem. The 10% bonus to mining foreman links should be unlinked from having the industrial core active. With the compression array it will never be used, reprocess the Industrial core.

If it was a fleet wide super booster granting additional drone dps bonuses, resist boosts, and Rep boosting it might be a useful Rorqual siege module.

It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.

Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
#177 - 2014-07-21 04:05:03 UTC
Axure Abbacus wrote:

Lose the siege mode if you want Rorquals to be used in belts. No-one is ever going to siege a Rorq in a belt, ever.

The siege/ Industrial core module is a large part of the problem. The 10% bonus to mining foreman links should be unlinked from having the industrial core active. With the compression array it will never be used, reprocess the Industrial core.

If it was a fleet wide super booster granting additional drone dps bonuses, resist boosts, and Rep boosting it might be a useful Rorqual siege module.


If the ship is effectively invulnerable while sieging then people will siege it in belts.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#178 - 2014-07-21 05:14:51 UTC
Paynus Maiassus wrote:
If the ship is effectively invulnerable while sieging then people will siege it in belts.

no they wont. Because unless it has reinforce mechincs like a station, then its going to die when it runs out of fuel or when it comes out of invulnerability.

Even if you gave it invulnerability it would be too much. It becomes this power struggle between making a rorqual invulnerable enough to use, then people bring more things, then it gets buffed, even more things come, and goes on and on.

Simply put, there is no sweet spot where the rorqual is strong enough to risk, but not too OP that it can never be killed.

Axure is right. indy core needs to die.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#179 - 2014-07-21 14:10:38 UTC
Rowells wrote:

Axure is right. indy core needs to die.


That's a lot of SP gone *poof*. Convert to another skill that gives the same bonus?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#180 - 2014-07-21 14:48:41 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Rowells wrote:

Axure is right. indy core needs to die.


That's a lot of SP gone *poof*. Convert to another skill that gives the same bonus?

yeah its gonna suck since myself and others may have poured a lot of SP into it. I imagine if they decide to give another role or add another ability to it, it could simply be transferred to that, but nothing off the top of my head comes to mind for that.