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Pushing the limits of "test" in test server

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Decarthado Aurgnet
Imperial Combat Engineers
#41 - 2014-07-19 00:55:20 UTC
Theon Severasse wrote:
Assuming that? Well let's get them working on POS mechanics and all the legacy code first, yeah?

You SHUT YOUR BLASPHEMING MOUTH! All praise be to POS'or the Almighty Blob of Unmanageable Crappy POS Code! Hail!

<><>

So, to condense what's been said so far; the opinions of those who're taking the time to debate with me primarily boil down to the idea that letting people freely set their own skills to whatever they want whenever they want wouldn't actually be a good thing because people need encouragement to log into the test server and help a couple dev's try out a mechanic which would be in active testing at the moment ... but you also feel leaving the test server online 24/7 is a good thing because it gives people the freedom to test whatever they're currently capable of doing and no more because it'd be a bad idea to let people say, "what would *really* happen if i had all level 5 in *this* area," even though that kind of thing is already available in theoretical fitting tools which aren't always 100% accurate?

See, that last part is the part which confuses me. What if some guy working on a fitting tool wants to triple-check that his numbers are right before releasing it into the wild? What if I want to be really super sure of just how much of a PITA one of my noobs will be facing on a Lv3 mission bear security mission without having to try to dig up a toon of my own with similar skills just so I can do a live-fire test because it's been so long since I've had to deal with his level of restricted ability? I love and respect the idea of the dev's basically shrugging their shoulders and saying, "why the hell not," when it comes to just letting players use one of their testing tools which they originally made in the name of gathering data. In the same spirit of it potentially helping much more than it could hurt ... why the hell not let players see if they can't find additional creative uses for the same system which is mostly sitting idle anyway?

If Goliath over here poked his face into the code one day and guessed the whole 'reset me' thing could be done in something less than a hundred man-hours ... then why not? I'm no professional programmer, but I've done a share of it and I know that sometimes you need to switch gears and work on something that's just a side project for an hour or two while you let the bigger ideas for more relevant projects simmer around in your mind for a bit.

Nobody I've ever played around with in the test server seemed to actually be incentivized by the free 2m sp's for helping out in a mass test so much as being able to get a bunch of lulzy fights in a place where they can do things they wouldn't normally be able to do and get away with. I think the mass test should be enough incentive in and of itself for people to all get into bombers one day and do something crazy like seeing how well some new torpedo mechanic stacks up against interceptors ... or whatever else seems like it just shouldn't work but would be kind of hilarious if it did. Information like that could be priceless in the right hands. What if tournament teams could decide which level 5 super specialization skill would do them the most good? Whatever other examples I can come up with, I'm sure my opponents in this debate can come up with at least as many favoring the same original suggestion (even if you don't want to admit it).

Still, to give a nod to people who think contrary to myself; what if the 'reset me' bot and the 100m freebie SP's were only active on mass test days at first? Would that be enough incentive for you? The purpose of a test environment in the real world is to isolate factors, not to get a "real world" test.

Remove T2 BPO's or make them inventable at extreme cost.
Krios42
Krios42's Retirement Home
#42 - 2014-07-19 06:50:21 UTC
I am in favor of the OP's proposal. It would open up testing options and have no drawbacks as far as I can see.

On a side note, people who say that players should not be doing personal testing on SiSi are kidding themselves - the server exists because of the players. It is not a privilege for us to use it, rather, it is our use of SiSi and TQ that allows it to exist.
Kora Ethereal
Ethereal Beings
#43 - 2014-07-19 17:54:22 UTC
Krios42 wrote:
I am in favor of the OP's proposal. It would open up testing options and have no drawbacks as far as I can see.

On a side note, people who say that players should not be doing personal testing on SiSi are kidding themselves - the server exists because of the players. It is not a privilege for us to use it, rather, it is our use of SiSi and TQ that allows it to exist.


CCP could always just ONLY do in house testing like a normal company :|
Decarthado Aurgnet
Imperial Combat Engineers
#44 - 2014-07-19 18:43:25 UTC
Yeah, they could. But they don't, which is pretty cool of them.

Remove T2 BPO's or make them inventable at extreme cost.
Alexa Coates
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-07-19 19:26:37 UTC
i dont get the argument "it's for ccp not us"

why do they leave it up 23/7 then? if it was just for ccp to do mass testing, then it would be up only for that.

That's a Templar, an Amarr fighter used by carriers.
Kora Ethereal
Ethereal Beings
#46 - 2014-07-19 19:45:36 UTC
Alexa Coates wrote:
i dont get the argument "it's for ccp not us"

why do they leave it up 23/7 then? if it was just for ccp to do mass testing, then it would be up only for that.


Because their only incentive for attending masstests (as of now) Is masstest SP. It would be sorta hard to let users utilize that SP if the server was down all the time :|.

Duality is more along the lines of Just for REALLY REALLY Pre-Alpha-ofthealpha testing, And that is actually down unless they need it, or for AT training.
Orny
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-07-20 06:26:14 UTC
I have posted these on other forum subjects but will also post them here so they can be included in discussions covering the possibility of shortened time between mirrors and the effect that may have on some testing'

And please no abusive replies as I'm sure they could be forthcoming.

A - At the time of the mirror run a script on TQ for all Characters with Capital Ships IV and V and on Sisi at the time of the mirror gift them and only them 1 each all Motherships and 1 each all Titans. Sisi is set so that they cannot be sold, traded, or included in contracts.

B- Fforget the SP we should only be testing what we are able to use / fly on TQ therefore the Skills should be the same on Sisi.
Pic'n dor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2014-07-20 07:41:11 UTC
What about a totally different thing ?
When mirroring, CCP delete all the toons. For each active account, they replace the toon with 1 perfect combat/explo/social pve toon, 1 perfect industrial/trader toon, 1 perfect leadership/corp management toon.

+5B wallet for testing purpose.

That will allow you to test every aspect of the game, setup corpo / role whatever you want without letting SiSi be your primary server since you loose your identity as a uniq player there.

COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE
Alexa Coates
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2014-07-20 15:56:09 UTC
Kora Ethereal wrote:
Alexa Coates wrote:
i dont get the argument "it's for ccp not us"

why do they leave it up 23/7 then? if it was just for ccp to do mass testing, then it would be up only for that.


Because their only incentive for attending masstests (as of now) Is masstest SP. It would be sorta hard to let users utilize that SP if the server was down all the time :|.




Exactly. It's both for ccp to test and for us to play.

That's a Templar, an Amarr fighter used by carriers.
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2014-07-20 21:20:50 UTC
the problem with many of these suggestions is that you are testing only the highest level of attainment in any category you are not testing what its like from a new or mid skill player perpective.

Testing is not about flying supers and titans and saying its all working

Its about a mid level toon setting up a pos for the first time....about that new toon trying indy or pve fits out

Giving a bunch of skills to someone who has not earned them, and then letting them test things they have never tried is not imho what sisi is for, nor does it benefit the game or CCP in anyway.

I use sisi, i have tested new fits, learned how to undock my first carrier there...discovered how damn annoying pos set ups could be. What a nuisance moon goo is, and discovered bugs and things along the way. Never once did i think boy i need 50m SP to test out that Nyx...since i have zero experience flying one and my input on its balancing or how it actually works is imho moot, since i have zero real TQ eperience flying once.

Skills are love hate thing....i love them cause it gives me goals to reach for and plan, i hate them because i cannot have what i want right now.

I say leave sisi the way it is....give the small SP incentives for ppl to come out. Many of us do...and would continue regardless of the SP incentive. Perhaps give out some vanity item for mass testing....a shirt "i was there" with the date on it.....or so
mething along those lines.
Decarthado Aurgnet
Imperial Combat Engineers
#51 - 2014-07-21 03:00:46 UTC
You're also assuming people won't want to test with anything except max-level skills. Sure, I can see the benefit of finding out just what happens when I push something to the max, but I can also see real uses for finding out how well the minimum works. Comparing and contrasting through the scale to find out if what you think is a scale of diminishing returns really happens to be the case would be just as valid a test as seeing what happens with max points in a skill.

Would I see what happens when I have Lv 3's in a thing vs Lv 5's? You can bet I would for a number of things.

Remove T2 BPO's or make them inventable at extreme cost.
Mei Ling Cobon-Han
Prosperity Industrial
#52 - 2014-07-21 12:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mei Ling Cobon-Han
I like the OP's idea. Yeah, yeah, it may be "A test server for CCP." But is it really just for them if it's up 23/7 and they allow access to it by ANYONE paying for EVE? And yeah, some people may not think of it as an EFT, when in reality many people use Sisi as an EFT because it provides more accurate information when testing a new fit or a new ship.

I support the OP's idea because there are things I would like to test/try out that I wouldn't normally train to right away in TQ (Or can't afford to), such as a Revelation. I've flown one before in Sisi, but only after four mass tests. Can it truly be called a "test" server if we couldn't/can't test anything outside of our skill book range?

Yes, you're right, some people will Lv5 everything, but those people would be the ones mindlessly killing each other in the combat system. Whereas others like myself would love to just skill up to a new ship or two to test it on missions, or maybe skill up to improve a fitting.

100m un-allocated SP has it's ups and downs, but nothing is perfect. Giving everyone 100m SP could potentially bring in lots of data from ship fittings and players pushing the limits of what ships can really do, be it bare minimum or maxed all to hell. It also allows players to understand the skills more, to find more skills that could help them in some way. I know I've come across a few skills in Sisi that I quickly bought and put in my queue on TQ because it helped me in some way be it combat or mining. Sisi is the reason I now know buying a 2.1 billion ISK Revelation is a terrible idea, and I wouldn't have known that until I bought it without Sisi.

Even if it would take a couple months to put the OP's idea into motion, I would wait for it to happen. It would get me on the test server more than I usually get on and I get on often to just play around, because it's still just a test server that CCP allow us to get on to test everything available to us. And I know I would still attend a mess test because of the sheer number of players and destruction going on.
Jaantrag
#53 - 2014-07-22 08:08:39 UTC
Quote:
What does everyone think of adjusting SiSi in such a way that all pilots are set at 0 SP every time it's mirrored but they also have 100 million SP's in unallocated skill points?


there would not be any points for mirrors if u just log in and have the sp-s waiting when logging in ..

and generally i would be mad to log in and spend x ammount of time allocating the sp to the same levels as i have in normal server so i get as close as possible experience .. if u want the sp to play around in various ships fitting .. go download EFT and look the number there .. ;)

EVElopedia < add this to your sig to show u WANT it back
Darth Behelzebhu
Lair of Demons
#54 - 2014-07-22 08:35:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Behelzebhu
This is excesive and too much extra coding to get this done, what about those who have more than 100mill sp? Losing skills every mirror

I see no real point in this except giving extra work to the Devs, also seen in the posts about skills to test stuff, when a certain set of skills has been necessary to test new features, the skills have been given, for example when the bastion module was being tested, players could receive all the skills to use the mod and the marauders, which could give up to 15mill sp to some players as the skills were set to five, also when trying to recreate a bug that required mining ice, the players that wanted to help received the skills to do so, when needed, CCP will give away what's necessary, to participate in masstests, usually doesn't require anything and can be done in the simplest frigate.

Other than this cases CCP needs everything to be tested, this could not happen if everybody has the skills to be flying around in dreads and carriers just because they can now
Mei Ling Cobon-Han
Prosperity Industrial
#55 - 2014-07-22 16:33:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mei Ling Cobon-Han
Darth Behelzebhu wrote:
everybody has the skills to be flying around in dreads and carriers just because they can now

Why does everyone just assume people will fly only Dreadnoughts and Carriers? I for one would only fly a Dreadnought in the PvP system once maybe twice, and a Carrier once to see what it's like. Frankly I would rather fly other factions (I'm Gallente that pilots Amarr ships) Battleships or Battlecruisers, or maybe some T2 Cruisers or T2 Destroyers.

Darth Behelzebhu wrote:
what about those who have more than 100mill sp? Losing skills every mirror

I hear what you're saying, but rather than lose it all your SP we should keep our TQ skills upon mirroring Sisi, that would be better than starting at 0 SP.


Jaantrag wrote:
there would not be any points for mirrors if u just log in and have the sp-s waiting when logging in

Mirrors wouldn't change in any way. As of now, mirrors just update your skills in Sisi to what they are in TQ. EVE Online has clones for 450m SP, so if they mirrored with this new idea along side it you would have your TQ skills PLUS 100m un-allocated SP
Rahool
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2014-07-23 13:59:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Rahool
I think it might be a better idea to add say ~ 20 Mill of resetable/useable SP on-top of each persons currently trained skills - as it would be nice to have some extra SP to mess about with for trying different fittings. These 20 Mill SP could be applied after each mirror, so as you'll only ever have 20 Million more SP than your actual SP to play with. Rewards for participating in MASS Tests could be something like a faction mod in TQ - which I think would attract a lot more people to SISI for the tests.
Kora Ethereal
Ethereal Beings
#57 - 2014-07-23 16:26:16 UTC
Rahool wrote:
I think it might be a better idea to add say ~ 20 Mill of resetable/useable SP on-top of each persons currently trained skills - as it would be nice to have some extra SP to mess about with for trying different fittings. These 20 Mill SP could be applied after each mirror, so as you'll only ever have 20 Million more SP than your actual SP to play with. Rewards for participating in MASS Tests could be something like a faction mod in TQ - which I think would attract a lot more people to SISI for the tests.


As Quoted before, The Test Server is in no way to affect ANYTHING on the Tranquility server, player wise.

This means:

  • No Item Rewards on TQ
  • No ISK Rewards on TQ
  • No SP Rewards on TQ
  • No Anything given on TQ in relation to SiSi
hellswindstaff
Syndicate Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#58 - 2014-07-23 18:56:15 UTC
Orny wrote:
I have posted these on other forum subjects but will also post them here so they can be included in discussions covering the possibility of shortened time between mirrors and the effect that may have on some testing'

And please no abusive replies as I'm sure they could be forthcoming.

A - At the time of the mirror run a script on TQ for all Characters with Capital Ships IV and V and on Sisi at the time of the mirror gift them and only them 1 each all Motherships and 1 each all Titans. Sisi is set so that they cannot be sold, traded, or included in contracts.

B- Fforget the SP we should only be testing what we are able to use / fly on TQ therefore the Skills should be the same on Sisi.


NO.....abusive reply not needed. It's the same guys every single mirror clammoring for supercaps and max skills to fly them. Anyone with half an eyeball notices these are the same guys sitting on the beacons 24/7 interfering with everyone who is trying to test something like a cruiser change for instance. Same guys building them same guys asking for sov bumps same guys who have been seen in supers many time so the" im testing supers" excuse should be ignored tbh. So lets dive in...

A.- Have they been changed somehow? If yes and it requires a masstest for it then by all means. If not then no need for any of that.

B- since there hasnt been any mass test sp passed out people have been doing that and it works fine.
Rahool
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2014-07-23 21:41:56 UTC
Kora Ethereal wrote:
Rahool wrote:
I think it might be a better idea to add say ~ 20 Mill of resetable/useable SP on-top of each persons currently trained skills - as it would be nice to have some extra SP to mess about with for trying different fittings. These 20 Mill SP could be applied after each mirror, so as you'll only ever have 20 Million more SP than your actual SP to play with. Rewards for participating in MASS Tests could be something like a faction mod in TQ - which I think would attract a lot more people to SISI for the tests.


As Quoted before, The Test Server is in no way to affect ANYTHING on the Tranquility server, player wise.

This means:

  • No Item Rewards on TQ
  • No ISK Rewards on TQ
  • No SP Rewards on TQ
  • No Anything given on TQ in relation to SiSi


Well then, maybe people who participate in a Mass test can have an extra 2 mill sp, on top of the 20mill sp that is re-usable, that can be appled only once.
Decarthado Aurgnet
Imperial Combat Engineers
#60 - 2014-07-23 22:10:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Decarthado Aurgnet
The reason I originally suggested a 100m blanket amount was because I figure it'd be easier to code a flat reset and addition of a straightforward amount of SP's to an existing variable. I like the idea of having some no-requirements resettable 'floater' SP's on top of your existing skills, but I don't know that it'd be much easier to develop than my ideal solution of creating a new GUI with + and - buttons on each skill's line item on Sisi. So, yeah. 100m seemed like a reasonable, "that should probably cover most people," kind of number. I can acknowledge that we've got some old toons like yours in the mix, but you get where I was coming from, I'm sure.

And, yes, it would be some extra work for the dev's if they choose to do this or something like it. On the other hand, there's some good things in it for them as well. They wouldn't have to worry about who gets the SP's for helping out in mass tests and they could still dictate that people should throw certain skills into their Sisi toons so the test can go off in whatever way they want. Better yet, if people are permitted to actually reduce their skills then we could work with them by having some of us intentionally go in with low, medium, and high grades of skills so they can get whatever levels they want out of us by merely suggesting that it'd be nice if some more of us downgraded so they could see more nooby skills in action.

Remove T2 BPO's or make them inventable at extreme cost.