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Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#841 - 2014-07-17 16:54:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
add a science ship designed for cyno's and make them the only ship able too carry one..
remove cynos from everything else

then increase spool up time on anything jumping through .. thus giving the opponents a chance too react ..
-either kill the science ship
- or have time too move off or get reinforcements
- or time add deploy a mobile cyno inhibitor which cancels any cyno field up in range of it..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Mario Putzo
#842 - 2014-07-17 17:10:47 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
add a science ship designed for cyno's and make them the only ship able too carry one..
remove cynos from everything else

then increase spool up time on anything jumping through .. thus giving the opponents a chance too react ..
-either kill the science ship
- or have time too move off or get reinforcements
- or time add deploy a mobile cyno inhibitor which cancels any cyno field up in range of it..


Right because the timers over ~5 days isn't enough time to react already.

The problem isn't with ships getting from point A to point B. The problem is that you have a week to move those ships there, contest a timer, and reset the whole progress. You need to stop trying to remedy a symptom of a problem. The problem is Sov mechanics, fix sov mechanics and the rest will work itself out.

The problem is that Sov contestation is not even remotely impacted by actually playing the game, if people actually had to use space in order to claim ownership of it, you wouldn't have 1K man fleets showing up to every fight, because those fleets would have to be at home protecting easily flipped sov.

Making sov easier to hold is not the solution. Making it easier to take is. You shouldn't need 1K dudes to take sov, you shouldn't need 1K dudes to defend sov. Fix that and you will fix the "problem" with power projection.
Anthar Thebess
#843 - 2014-07-17 17:20:55 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Look at this
http://themittani.com/news/amarrmatar-fw-huolas-irregulars
Seems like everyone involved is having lots of fun. Why can't sov-warfare be like this?


Because we have supers, capitals, timers, doomsdays, dictor bubbles , and other fun stuff, that is just not working as CCP intended.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#844 - 2014-07-17 17:56:47 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Making sov easier to hold is not the solution. Making it easier to take is. You shouldn't need 1K dudes to take sov, you shouldn't need 1K dudes to defend sov. Fix that and you will fix the "problem" with power projection.


Agree. You don't need atomic bomb to kill a fly. It would be good mechanism to thin the "blob". Fleet would have to be spread.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Mario Putzo
#845 - 2014-07-17 18:01:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Making sov easier to hold is not the solution. Making it easier to take is. You shouldn't need 1K dudes to take sov, you shouldn't need 1K dudes to defend sov. Fix that and you will fix the "problem" with power projection.


Agree. You don't need atomic bomb to kill a fly. It would be good mechanism to thin the "blob". Fleet would have to be spread.


Pretty much.

CCP needs to give sov a use it or lose it make over. Force people to actually use the space if they want to claim it as their own. Take what they did with FW and apply it to sov control. If you can't actively defend your space by using it...to bad, don't try and hold as much then.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#846 - 2014-07-17 21:03:40 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Making sov easier to hold is not the solution. Making it easier to take is. You shouldn't need 1K dudes to take sov, you shouldn't need 1K dudes to defend sov. Fix that and you will fix the "problem" with power projection.


Agree. You don't need atomic bomb to kill a fly. It would be good mechanism to thin the "blob". Fleet would have to be spread.


Pretty much.

CCP needs to give sov a use it or lose it make over. Force people to actually use the space if they want to claim it as their own. Take what they did with FW and apply it to sov control. If you can't actively defend your space by using it...to bad, don't try and hold as much then.

This is what the effect of removing jump drives would have to a major extent. You won't be able to protect 200+ systems with 1 group of capitals. They're just too slow moving from gate to gate. And if you bubble their path, oh lord, think how long it would take to travel through a bubble to the gate.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#847 - 2014-07-17 21:08:54 UTC
I kinda like the idea of removing cynos, but I also like the idea of cynos only being limited to a certain ship.

I say:

1. Allow ships to jump without cynos, but they will be randomly placed in a system.
2. Only allow Battlecruisers and Command Ships the ability to fit cynos. Covert cynos remain the same. This could have the happy side-effect of getting fleet boosters on grid.
3. Jumping to a cyno will land you within a radius of 50km.
4. Add a new cyno skill to reduce that radius, with level 5 allowing the ship to land right on the cyno. You could call it Cyno Pinpointing or something.
Anthar Thebess
#848 - 2014-07-17 21:14:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Estella Osoka wrote:
I kinda like the idea of removing cynos, but I also like the idea of cynos only being limited to a certain ship.

I say:

1. Allow ships to jump without cynos, but they will be randomly placed in a system.
2. Only allow Battlecruisers and Command Ships the ability to fit cynos. Covert cynos remain the same. This could have the happy side-effect of getting fleet boosters on grid.
3. Jumping to a cyno will land you within a radius of 50km.
4. Add a new cyno skill to reduce that radius, with level 5 allowing the ship to land right on the cyno. You could call it Cyno Pinpointing or something.


1-2 months to skillup alts, while using some other caracters.
The whole jumping direcly to cyno is the issue.
Make 1-2 first ships droping to cyno, and rest scattered across the system.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#849 - 2014-07-17 22:00:42 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
I kinda like the idea of removing cynos, but I also like the idea of cynos only being limited to a certain ship.

I say:

1. Allow ships to jump without cynos, but they will be randomly placed in a system.
2. Only allow Battlecruisers and Command Ships the ability to fit cynos. Covert cynos remain the same. This could have the happy side-effect of getting fleet boosters on grid.
3. Jumping to a cyno will land you within a radius of 50km.
4. Add a new cyno skill to reduce that radius, with level 5 allowing the ship to land right on the cyno. You could call it Cyno Pinpointing or something.


1-2 months to skillup alts, while using some other caracters.
The whole jumping direcly to cyno is the issue.
Make 1-2 first ships droping to cyno, and rest scattered across the system.


Yeah, but if only BCs and CCs can use them, then you still have to get those ships to the target system.
Anthar Thebess
#850 - 2014-07-17 22:25:47 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
I kinda like the idea of removing cynos, but I also like the idea of cynos only being limited to a certain ship.

I say:

1. Allow ships to jump without cynos, but they will be randomly placed in a system.
2. Only allow Battlecruisers and Command Ships the ability to fit cynos. Covert cynos remain the same. This could have the happy side-effect of getting fleet boosters on grid.
3. Jumping to a cyno will land you within a radius of 50km.
4. Add a new cyno skill to reduce that radius, with level 5 allowing the ship to land right on the cyno. You could call it Cyno Pinpointing or something.


1-2 months to skillup alts, while using some other caracters.
The whole jumping direcly to cyno is the issue.
Make 1-2 first ships droping to cyno, and rest scattered across the system.


Yeah, but if only BCs and CCs can use them, then you still have to get those ships to the target system.


This is nullsec.
You have 1st account : main
2nd : first alt , no more! You need eyes.
3rd account: because 3 capitals is better than one
4,5 for cyno alts.

And each account have 3 chars.

Plex prices went up so i already reduced my accounts to 4. There will be 3 in next month , and 2 in the future.
But i can always reactivate them , and every where i have cyno alts.

My point is :
- if i have so many accounts ( and i have just few ) there is no issue to move alt to destination system at any ealier time, and simply logout it there.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#851 - 2014-07-18 06:39:30 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Look at this
http://themittani.com/news/amarrmatar-fw-huolas-irregulars
Seems like everyone involved is having lots of fun. Why can't sov-warfare be like this?


Because we have supers, capitals, timers, doomsdays, dictor bubbles , and other fun stuff, that is just not working as CCP intended.


We don't know how lucky we are.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Anthar Thebess
#852 - 2014-07-18 08:09:04 UTC
Free bump for CCP!

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#853 - 2014-07-18 08:34:17 UTC
This was probably the best suggestion I've ever seen for Null Sec Space in general: Link


Covers a hell of a lot of issues. Unfortunately it seemed to slip completely under the radar of CCP. Probably due to timing.

Couple this with removing instant teleportation with a "J-Space" mechanic for jumping and I think we might actually have working Sov!!
Anthar Thebess
#854 - 2014-07-18 08:47:59 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#855 - 2014-07-18 09:22:28 UTC
h4kun4 wrote:


ArrowOres need to be rebalanced somehow in null, the permanent shortage of mexallon and the senselessness to import it due to fuel pices and the actual obsolescence of Meta 0 425mm Rails after cruis are not good for the economy.


I thought the idea of low mex in null was to make sure people had to move back and forth from null the empire and back. If anything I think we need more of this. The more people that actually jump across systems the more people will see this and want to do the same.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#856 - 2014-07-18 09:26:54 UTC
After hearing about the recent fighting for Huola, and having dabbled in factional warfare myself, I honestly think applying the FW mechanics to sov warfare would be great. All it would need would be a few tweaks.

It can't be worse than the crap we have now.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Anthar Thebess
#857 - 2014-07-18 09:45:19 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
After hearing about the recent fighting for Huola, and having dabbled in factional warfare myself, I honestly think applying the FW mechanics to sov warfare would be great. All it would need would be a few tweaks.

It can't be worse than the crap we have now.

I think you are right.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#858 - 2014-07-18 19:00:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Callduron
Allison A'vani wrote:
I don't know the last time you had to do any alliance logistical work Manny, but as someone in PL who uses their JF more than any other ship in the game I have to 100% disagree with you. If this became a thing, then 0.0 would essentially die.


Check your privilege. The kind of traffic congestion Manny was talking about sounds amazing fun, hardly anyone else thinks it should stay sacrificed so you get to titan bridge your freighters around your renter empire.



Quote:
Regardless of any resource localization done in 0.0 from mining, ratting, or plexing, you still have to import a ton of things for basic industry as they are region bound


Basic industry is T1. Nothing T1 needs regional mats.

T2 regional mats could be sourced and moved pretty easily in blockade runners. Enough mats for 2 scimis fit in one Blockade runner. We want those gankable targets moving around.

Quote:
If this happened then no one in 0.0 would ever use t2 modules nor ships as sourcing them would be near impossible without an extreme amount of work, especially as most of the exploration sites spawn in high-sec and low-sec space.


Bizzarrely ships are capable of flying into nullsec from elsewhere even if they have T2 modules on.



Price of t2 ships and modules would skyrocket overnight as fueling a pos would be a nightmare and moving moon goo would be suicide.

Great. This would create a gold rush towards nullsec which would create content.

Quote:
Moons and systems in deep 0.0 would be abandoned as there would be no way to move products out of those systems in any way that was not a complete chore.


People mine Veldspar in high sec. Eve is full of people doing things which are a complete chore. The trick is to get these chores to generate pvp content.

In fact tell you what. Give me a Neo moon and I'll promise to only fuel it and collect my goo in a Blockade Runner. Do we have a deal?

Basically the entire 0.0 outside of border regions to empire space would be abandoned and you would see a mass exodus back to high/low sec.

No. It is currently abandoned. It would become interesting.

Quote:
The entire in game economy relies on the Jump Freighter making logistics not more of an absolute pain in the ass than it already is. If my JF was limited to jumping 1 system at a time I would strait up unsub my accounts.


You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. Eve is dull, it's a space conquest game with no space conquest. It's a game that inspires and excites but then breaks the promises it seemed to give. There's a generation of players that joined because of B-R who will be gone by the end of the year because Eve is nothing like as exciting as reports of those stories seem to suggest.

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#859 - 2014-07-18 20:11:32 UTC
Create some sort of mechanism that scales sov grinding based on how much a system is used.

If your alliance kills 10k rats / day mines hundreds of thousands of roids, sucks all the moon goo out of the system, runs all the anoms, etc.... then the sov grind should be hard.

If your alliance occasionally passes through a system once a day but otherwise does nothing, then sov should be much easier to grind.

Reason: Just because you pay CONCORD for sov doesn't mean you get to keep it. CONCORD wants you to use your system to its full economic potential as well.
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#860 - 2014-07-18 22:43:08 UTC
So, I'll do it again, since a few people have shamelessly plugged their ideas.

The shameless plug

the TL;DR:

Using your space earns you points to keep/upgrade it. Bad guys take away your points forcing you to lose/downgrade it. Does not address power projection, cynos, or capitals. Sparsely addresses the blob. Very much addresses the "blue donut"

Please enjoy!

Cedric