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Skill Points for PLEX?
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Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#41 - 2014-07-18 02:20:19 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
Lady Naween wrote:
*looks for lock.. finds none.. is disappointed*

For once, someone actually shocked us all by having SP and PLEX in the same title, without it being filled with whining about how long training takes. For that alone, it deserves to stay open.


Part of the motivation for the thread was to watch the mouth breathing forum regulars utterly miss the point and start knee jerk posting. That was quickly accomplished.

But it seriously got me thinking about the idea.

It's a bad idea. But a good forum topic. So a bad idea.

And half of you are idiots.

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Orin Solette
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-07-18 05:06:08 UTC
Why would CCP give out plex like that? That would make plex cheaper, sure, but it would also mean that someone out there would get play time and CCP would get no money for it.

That's not gonna happen.
Julius Priscus
#43 - 2014-07-18 05:14:04 UTC
why not have the option to trade in 2 plex's and pick a char on your account. have all its sp transferred to another char on same account.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#44 - 2014-07-18 06:09:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
It's a neat idea on the surface of it, but you have to wonder how useful it really is.

I mean, how much would you have to burn to get a PLEX? If it's in any way proportional to the time it takes to actually gain those SP, you would have had to **** up monumentally to have enough “wasted” SP to reach even a single PLEX. It can't be less than 2M SP, since that would let people train and sell for eternity — so something along the lines of 5M (or even the 10M mentioned earlier) would have to be the exchange rate. That's an awful lot of deliberate training…

The other problem is more for the programmers: how do you enforce the limits on what can be sold this way? You can't just allow people to hollow out their characters bottom-up and end up with minute-SP alts for, say, supercap parking, where all that's left is the Capship V and Titan I skill (or whatever). In other words, the selling process would have to check that the skill level you're trying to sell isn't a prerequisite for something, and if it is, you have to sell that skill first. I can see that getting ugly very quickly, both in the bugs that could turn up and in presenting a solid UI to the players.

…on the other hand, it would give them a reason to create an ISIS-like display of the skill tree — which would be helpful for all kinds of other purposes — since that would probably be the best way of representing what it is you're trying to sell.

In short: interesting, but ultimately pointless due to how much work would have to go into something that will never be used.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#45 - 2014-07-18 06:42:19 UTC
Wait...this hasn't been locked yet? My God in Heaven! Someone must be holding all of CCP hostage. Or they were kidnapped by aliens, taken through a trans-dimensional wormhole to another universe, and then sold to a another sentient race to be used as cannon fodder in a sort of galactic gladiatorial tournament simply to please their masses. It's the only logical explanation.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Mithandra
B.O.P Supplication For Glorious
Dracarys.
#46 - 2014-07-18 10:24:18 UTC
The question is what's in it for ccp.

you convert unwanted sp to plex, convert the plex to game time and play effectively for free. The ratio of sp to plex as people have said would have to be such that the system would not be abused, and lets face it, if something can be exploited or abused by eve pilots, it will be. Its our nature.

If the ratio is too high it wont make sense converting the points in the first place, too low and people will train to play for free.

Make it exploit proof and I might, might I say tentatively think its an O.K idea. As it is ? No

Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community
Namiene
Revenge Uprising
#47 - 2014-07-18 10:26:05 UTC
when i made this thread it was locked.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#48 - 2014-07-18 11:32:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
It's a neat idea on the surface of it, but you have to wonder how useful it really is.

I mean, how much would you have to burn to get a PLEX? If it's in any way proportional to the time it takes to actually gain those SP, you would have had to **** up monumentally to have enough “wasted” SP to reach even a single PLEX. It can't be less than 2M SP, since that would let people train and sell for eternity — so something along the lines of 5M (or even the 10M mentioned earlier) would have to be the exchange rate. That's an awful lot of deliberate training…

The other problem is more for the programmers: how do you enforce the limits on what can be sold this way? You can't just allow people to hollow out their characters bottom-up and end up with minute-SP alts for, say, supercap parking, where all that's left is the Capship V and Titan I skill (or whatever). In other words, the selling process would have to check that the skill level you're trying to sell isn't a prerequisite for something, and if it is, you have to sell that skill first. I can see that getting ugly very quickly, both in the bugs that could turn up and in presenting a solid UI to the players.

…on the other hand, it would give them a reason to create an ISIS-like display of the skill tree — which would be helpful for all kinds of other purposes — since that would probably be the best way of representing what it is you're trying to sell.

In short: interesting, but ultimately pointless due to how much work would have to go into something that will never be used.


No doubt, getting the numbers right would be pretty tough, and I didn't think about people defunding holding characters. But I really , really, really like the thought of an ISIS like skill tree. If anything, that would be a good feature to implement, especially when concerned about the new player experience.

But assuming CCP could take prerequisites into account, it would be a method of deleting unwanted skill points for a very short-term benefit, and wouldn't run into the problem of repurposing characters for different tasks (at least not directly). But in the holding character scenario, you could burn out all the Titan/capital skills, maybe earn one PLEX for your trouble, and then have a month to potentially retrain the character into a hauler or a FW alt or something.

Or what about skill points for a cerebral accelerator? That doesn't take cash out of CCP's pocket, but gives something for burning a (great deal) of skill points. (I already don't like this idea).

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#49 - 2014-07-18 11:34:11 UTC
Namiene wrote:
when i made this thread it was locked.


Your bad and repetitive thread was what made me think to write this one.

Read it again.

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Ryuu Towryk
Perkone
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-07-18 11:38:36 UTC
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
I misread someone else's thread, and actually thought it was a good idea that I've never seen come up.

Skill points for PLEX.

Not "buy a PLEX and convert it to skill points" but "Convert skillpoints you wish you didn't have into PLEX"

Feeling bad about all those industry/mining skills you trained but never use? Convert them into a PLEX!

Annoyed that CCP is completely removing skills from the game (Material Efficiency V anyone?) and playing the semantics game by "changing" the skill to a completely different one? Just delete those useless skill points and apply them towards a PLEX!

Obviously, the ratio of skill points to PLEX would have to be pretty high - far higher than the amount of skill points you can generate during a billing cycle - but I'm sure CCP (or the forums) could math out a good ratio.

Bonus is that a lot of very old/high SP characters who are heavily into being "bittervets" would have an easy way to grab some PLEX and shed so many SP that they could once again get that "newbie" feel (gee, I can't wait until I can fly interceptors *again*!).

I see no downside to this and plenty of upside. It's only a matter of time.


Dear god no.
Sodabro
Doomheim
#51 - 2014-07-18 11:39:20 UTC
"what an original and excllent idea", said nobody, never
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2014-07-18 11:44:03 UTC
"PLEX for the Removal of Unwanted Skills"

You DO NOT get reimbursed for skill points or skill books.

If you have the option of plugging them in, then you should have the option of unplugging them.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Reiisha
#53 - 2014-07-18 13:31:23 UTC
At this point i'm convinced that plex for sp threads are actually a symptom of the EVE forum pms'ing.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Shederov Blood
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#54 - 2014-07-18 14:14:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Shederov Blood
Sodabro wrote:
"what an original and excllent idea", said nobody, never
Except for those who actually read what this one was about. (just the "original" part, not "excellent")

Who put the goat in there?
Scout Vyvorant
Doomheim
#55 - 2014-07-18 15:09:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Scout Vyvorant
Let me say this, I already posted before in a thread proposing something different, an accelerated skill training for a month by using a plex or paying a sum of money like you do for the multiple char training. The thread didn't got locked and most of the opinion were mainly about that would be too costly for the people that replied, however not really unfair considering that the total sum of SP you generate on an account would be the same of having a multiple char training or an accelerated queue.

What I've learned by half lurking these forums is that flat out bad ideas get a lock from an ISD member, see the various "let me buy SP for plex" threads that got locked, however the threads with strange ideas like this one get left opened to see how the people react to it.

However, I've also noticed that CCP defend to the bitter end two things that have an absolute value in EVE online, while most of you would answer the first is the PLEX value, the first and oldest thing is the SP value. When you check the char bazaar, you can evaluate the price of a toon by converting its skill point in month needed of training, then consider that each month of training is worth a certain amount of ISK due to the conversion of PLEX into ISK.

If you'd let people buy SP for PLEX (and indirectly for ISK) you have to think about those big alliance that could create a titan / super carrier pilot in a month by using their insane wealth to buy plexes to convert in SP points. While anyone with enough wealth can keep making ships, what you cannot create out of thin air (or out of a massive veldspar) are the pilot themselves. Even an accelerated skill queue will make possible to finish a capital pilot in 1/2 or 1/3 of the time (see my old idea in a previous post), eventually rising the number of pilot for sale on the bazaar, filling the market with more offer than the actual request, devaluing then value of the pilot itself and indirectly of SP invested in it. In this situation you'll have a pilot that's worth less than the sum of plex invested to create it in the long run, making it cheaper in terms of real life currency to just buy your toon off the bazaar rather than paying months of subscription and wait the skill to train up.

How cheap is going to end up I cannot imagine, but I guess you could say the same with how pricey are going to be the PLEXes before they'll cost more than what the people perceives as an acceptable price.

Now please be mindful before commenting, I've made the example of Cap/Supercap pilots because it's a topic dear to most, but you can then just say "PvP focused pilot" or "Science / Industrial toon", or apply this to any toon you see for sale in the bazaar focus.
Grog Aftermath
Doomheim
#56 - 2014-07-18 22:47:26 UTC
Shederov Blood wrote:
Sodabro wrote:
"what an original and excllent idea", said nobody, never
Except for those who actually read what this one was about. (just the "original" part, not "excellent")



Except it doesn't seem very original to me, we've had these discussions in the past. Put forward by people that have changed professions and have a lot of useless sp as a result.

They've always ended up the same way so far, nothing changing. As it should be.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#57 - 2014-07-18 23:01:22 UTC
Scout Vyvorant wrote:
Let me say this, I already posted before in a thread proposing something different, an accelerated skill training for a month by using a plex or paying a sum of money like you do for the multiple char training. The thread didn't got locked and most of the opinion were mainly about that would be too costly for the people that replied, however not really unfair considering that the total sum of SP you generate on an account would be the same of having a multiple char training or an accelerated queue.

What I've learned by half lurking these forums is that flat out bad ideas get a lock from an ISD member, see the various "let me buy SP for plex" threads that got locked, however the threads with strange ideas like this one get left opened to see how the people react to it.

However, I've also noticed that CCP defend to the bitter end two things that have an absolute value in EVE online, while most of you would answer the first is the PLEX value, the first and oldest thing is the SP value. When you check the char bazaar, you can evaluate the price of a toon by converting its skill point in month needed of training, then consider that each month of training is worth a certain amount of ISK due to the conversion of PLEX into ISK.

If you'd let people buy SP for PLEX (and indirectly for ISK) you have to think about those big alliance that could create a titan / super carrier pilot in a month by using their insane wealth to buy plexes to convert in SP points. While anyone with enough wealth can keep making ships, what you cannot create out of thin air (or out of a massive veldspar) are the pilot themselves. Even an accelerated skill queue will make possible to finish a capital pilot in 1/2 or 1/3 of the time (see my old idea in a previous post), eventually rising the number of pilot for sale on the bazaar, filling the market with more offer than the actual request, devaluing then value of the pilot itself and indirectly of SP invested in it. In this situation you'll have a pilot that's worth less than the sum of plex invested to create it in the long run, making it cheaper in terms of real life currency to just buy your toon off the bazaar rather than paying months of subscription and wait the skill to train up.

How cheap is going to end up I cannot imagine, but I guess you could say the same with how pricey are going to be the PLEXes before they'll cost more than what the people perceives as an acceptable price.

Now please be mindful before commenting, I've made the example of Cap/Supercap pilots because it's a topic dear to most, but you can then just say "PvP focused pilot" or "Science / Industrial toon", or apply this to any toon you see for sale in the bazaar focus.


Well, tbh, CCP used to defend skill point value to the bitter end. The new and improved CCP will actually remove skills from the game (x3 skills no less) without refunding SP - instead, they are spitballing ideas for a replacement skill that nobody actually trained for. Used to be that 1) removed skills got refunded, 2)" if you could fly it before you can fly it after," and 3) if we nerf a skill, directly or indirectly, it sucks to be you.

They just officially tossed 1 out the window, and you have to expect 2 won't survive any further ship changes. SP are not the sacred cow they used to be, for no good reason I can ascertain.

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2014-07-18 23:41:46 UTC
Wasn't there a thread about this yesterday? Maybe?

All the horrible threads kinda merge together after a while.


Anyway, no. SP for PLEX is a horrible, stupid idea that reeks of P2W BS. Anyone suggesting it should be taken out behind Jita and paddled publicly.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2014-07-19 00:18:14 UTC
Scout Vyvorant wrote:
Now please be mindful before commenting...

Sigh... and I promised to be good.

Re-read the OP. Your post does not speak to the idea at all.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2014-07-19 00:56:37 UTC
I think it's a bad idea. You should live with the skill choices you've made. The cost of your medical clone reflects that.

Now there's a more complex debate on whether the medical clone cost is unfair to older players or not. But I don't think you should be able to benefit from a medical clone cost reduction AND get paid in PLEX for doing so.

If anything, you should pay PLEX to delete SPs (an idea I don't believe I'm for).

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.