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the how to correctly seed supers/officer mods thread

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OMEGA REDUX
Last Resort Inn
#1 - 2014-07-17 17:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
This is a continuation of the thread hijacking that occurred in https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=354638 so that we don't keep hijacking it and be able to stay on topic in the correct threads. This thread will be focusing on how to make the testing of supers and officer mods balanced and dealing with any issues that might come up due to seeding them.

1. Blobbing on the gates/stations (of any form at all) from the test server rules at https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6353&find=unread
Quote:
2. Combat by consent only, except in the designated combat systems (6-CZ49, PVH8-0).

Combat system (6-CZ49, PVH8-0) specific additional rules

1. No fighting or other aggressive actions at the station and gates (no targeted or AoE warp inhibiting modules).
2. No capitals in PVH8-0
Since the rules very clearly say that fighting on the station/gates isn't allowed I don't want to see a single post of someone complaining that someone will blob them on the station/gate. When you as a player sees it happen file a petition. *Snip* Please refrain from discussing warnings and bans. ISD Ezwal.

2. unbalanced fighting due to 1 person having meta/t2 and the other having officer mods. With the use of acceleration gates and adding the system of EZA-FM (which is right beside both 6-CZ49 and PVH8-0) to the mix we can segregate those using meta/t2 fits and those using officer fits. EZA-FM can be the meta/t2 fights system and PVH8-0 can be the officer fights system. In both systems capitals will not be allowed to enter. At the combat areas in EZA-FM there can be combat areas that are accessed via acceleration gates that deny access to anyone with anything fitted to their ship (or in their cargohold due to possible mobile depot usage) that is a meta 6 or above, using something along the lines of the below code. This example will be done via a simple if then statement as is used by spreadsheets.

IF(ModMetaValue="meta0",pass,IF(ModMetaValue="meta1",pass,IF(ModMetaValue="meta2",pass,IF(ModMetaValue="meta3",pass,IF(ModMetaValue="meta4",pass,IF(ModMetaValue="meta5",pass,fail))))))

substitute the values of ModMetaValue and meta0, etc for the correct ones ingame

do a simple list of all the mods fitted to/inside the ship attempting to use the acceleration gate (use the code already in place for restricting ships types at acceleration gates or the code already in place for running a ship/cargo scanner module to make this list if you really have to) then pull the meta value from the database for each mod in that list then run the above code on each item in that list. If any of the mods get a fail then that ship is not allowed to use the acceleration gate. If i missed anything that would cause any kind of errors please let me know and i will fix the code for it.

The rules for the combat areas will need to be rewritten to include acceleration gates so there is no excuse from the masses.
Quote:
1. No fighting or other aggressive actions at the station, gates, nor prior to entering the acceleration gates (no targeted or AoE warp inhibiting modules).
is a possible good rewrite.
OMEGA REDUX
Last Resort Inn
#2 - 2014-07-17 17:32:34 UTC
Adriana Mal'Valeran wrote:

Accel gates are also basically a warptozero situation, aka it'll get camped and then you'll be crying about people blobbing in another thread. stuff like this just complicates things, it doesn't solve the basic problem.

see point 1 in the first post...also I havent cried about a darn thing so take your attitude elsewhere.
OMEGA REDUX
Last Resort Inn
#3 - 2014-07-17 17:37:55 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
I'm no coder but here's how I would pseudocode the ensuing action, should we implement this solution.

IF SubcapShipOnGate WHEN WarpImmunity=False THEN goto GateBumpAndMassiveSuperBlobAttack

you forgot the next line which reads

IF PlayerBreaksRules THEN BanPlayerFromSisi

also if you are not a coder it would behove you not to tell people how difficult it is or isn't to code in my suggestion on how to block officer mods from combat areas.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#4 - 2014-07-17 17:41:37 UTC
The problem with using rules for this kind of purpose is that the system then becomes a series of exceptions, which requires heavy policing. That being said, we are currently developing some little extras that are going to do some of the policing for us! No details yet, but maybe when Lebowski and Masterplan are back from vacation.

As to your gate theory. We have discussed using gates for this purpose before, and indeed I think it was tried out in the past (before my time though so can't say for sure), but we found the solution to be inelegant due to the increased need for policing. If this automated solution bears fruit, it could very much be on the table again.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
OMEGA REDUX
Last Resort Inn
#5 - 2014-07-17 18:02:39 UTC
Instead of using acceleration gates (since they have the drawback of not being able to warp in at range) you could have the filter in place for anyone using the system gates (star gates?) to enter EZA-FM. To prevent someone from using a capital to bring officer mods into EZA-FM you could cyno block the system using code similiar to the pos module or code similar to the cyno blocking for incursions. This would automatically prevent any capital usage in those systems as well thus eliminating the need to police the no caps in those systems rule.

For fighting on stations/gates you could make the station/gate guns act like concord and instakill anyone doing any aggressive action on those grids.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#6 - 2014-07-17 18:04:20 UTC
OMEGA REDUX wrote:
Instead of using acceleration gates (since they have the drawback of not being able to warp in at range) you could have the filter in place for anyone using the system gates (star gates?) to enter EZA-FM. To prevent someone from using a capital to bring officer mods into EZA-FM you could cyno block the system using code similiar to the pos module or code similar to the cyno blocking for incursions. This would automatically prevent any capital usage in those systems as well thus eliminating the need to police the no caps in those systems rule.

For fighting on stations/gates you could make the station/gate guns act like concord and instakill anyone doing any aggressive action on those grids.


That's too much coding and too many special exceptions. First and foremost Sisi must be a test environment. Live EFT is very much a secondary/tertiary level use case.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
OMEGA REDUX
Last Resort Inn
#7 - 2014-07-17 18:22:54 UTC
AFAIK concord is still enabled in Sisi highsec so live EFT as you put it is already in the game. Go to any highsec system, fit ship you wish to test, undock, fire 1 volley at the station (attacking the station does trigger concord right?...maybe i should go test that haha!), watch concord blap you, get live EFT results from the loss mail.

To anyone following the rules the measures I suggested are already "in place" since those people would not even attempt to light a cyno in PVH8-0 nor attempt to attack anyone on the stations/gates. These measures simply provide actual unbreakable rules to the rules you already said no one should break but they totally can and apparently aren't receiving any punishment for doing so. I don't understand how that is in any way making any part of Sisi something other than a test environment since those following the rules would not be doing anything different.

Also we did just go over how since you are not a coder you have no idea how much coding it would take to do that (thou I will admit the station/gate gun thing might get measy since IDK how yall wrote the aggression mechanic code...but since you aren't a coder neither do you know how measy or not measy it would be to do so)
hellswindstaff
Syndicate Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#8 - 2014-07-17 18:39:14 UTC  |  Edited by: hellswindstaff
Goliath ......AMEN.......instead of +1 im giving you a plus 2

I dunno how many ways you can put you aren't getting your way nicely but well done.

and these devs do not have the time to babysit "He attacked me on the gate/station" complaints every 5 minutes.
Everyone wants a better Eve but want to burden the devs with nonsense.
Kora Ethereal
Ethereal Beings
#9 - 2014-07-17 18:54:24 UTC
OMEGA REDUX wrote:
AFAIK concord is still enabled in Sisi highsec so live EFT as you put it is already in the game. Go to any highsec system, fit ship you wish to test, undock, fire 1 volley at the station (attacking the station does trigger concord right?...maybe i should go test that haha!), watch concord blap you, get live EFT results from the loss mail.

To anyone following the rules the measures I suggested are already "in place" since those people would not even attempt to light a cyno in PVH8-0 nor attempt to attack anyone on the stations/gates. These measures simply provide actual unbreakable rules to the rules you already said no one should break but they totally can and apparently aren't receiving any punishment for doing so. I don't understand how that is in any way making any part of Sisi something other than a test environment since those following the rules would not be doing anything different.

Also we did just go over how since you are not a coder you have no idea how much coding it would take to do that (thou I will admit the station/gate gun thing might get measy since IDK how yall wrote the aggression mechanic code...but since you aren't a coder neither do you know how measy or not measy it would be to do so)


O_O

EFT = Getting Concorded

I didn't know you could test a tank if you got alphaed regardless of your Resists and Hitpoints.
OMEGA REDUX
Last Resort Inn
#10 - 2014-07-17 18:58:03 UTC
Well that's the only thing I could think of that he could mean by "live EFT" and someone getting instakilled by a uber station/gate gun because they broke the rule of no aggression on the stattion/gates.
hellswindstaff
Syndicate Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#11 - 2014-07-17 19:02:18 UTC
as i said last time there was seeded/reedem system supers.....no bugs got reported no testing got done and local was this every 5 minutes "X UP FOR CAP FLEET" Then you ended up with 35 godtank supers on beacon at 0 popping cruisers
hellswindstaff
Syndicate Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#12 - 2014-07-17 20:16:37 UTC
Well we are moving on from this thread.
Goliath said NO. Good enough answer for me.
cheekybot Rotineque
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-07-17 21:10:59 UTC
IMO i think everything should be seeded solving the issue of building supers, if your actually testing game mech's or combat and dont wanna be blobbed go somewhere else for actual testing purposes, i see the combat system as a place for people to test personal fits and derp around/ have fun, from my understanding of the rules you can have combat in any system providing both sides agree to it, so fleet ops and such can be done other places if people choose to fleet up and stage it.

most good testing of alot is done solo or in small groups with a certain bug there hunting, so to me saying "i cant test anything because i get blobbed" is not a valid statement IMO
hellswindstaff
Syndicate Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#14 - 2014-07-17 21:15:58 UTC
cheekybot Rotineque wrote:
IMO i think everything should be seeded solving the issue of building supers, if your actually testing game mech's or combat and dont wanna be blobbed go somewhere else for actual testing purposes, i see the combat system as a place for people to test personal fits and derp around/ have fun, from my understanding of the rules you can have combat in any system providing both sides agree to it, so fleet ops and such can be done other places if people choose to fleet up and stage it.

most good testing of alot is done solo or in small groups with a certain bug there hunting, so to me saying "i cant test anything because i get blobbed" is not a valid statement IMO


go "test" when 45 nyxes are chasing cruisers around 6-c then come back and post.
cheekybot Rotineque
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-07-17 21:19:53 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
hellswindstaff wrote:


go "test" when 45 nyxes are chasing cruisers around 6-c then come back and post.


you didnt read my post did you, there's thousands of systems to test in, use them, 6-C is nothing more than a derp fest, dont like it go to another system, CCP doesnt cater to whiners on tranq, why should they do it on SISI, seed the supers and all mods, people who wanna actually test have ways at there disposal if they choose to use them


Fixed quote. ISD Ezwal.
hellswindstaff
Syndicate Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#16 - 2014-07-17 21:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
cheekybot Rotineque wrote:
hellswindstaff wrote:


go "test" when 45 nyxes are chasing cruisers around 6-c then come back and post.


you didnt read my post did you, there's thousands of systems to test in, use them, 6-C is nothing more than a derp fest, dont like it go to another system, CCP doesnt cater to whiners on tranq, why should they do it on SISI, seed the supers and all mods, people who wanna actually test have ways at there disposal if they choose to use them


Come on lets be realistic........9/10 times those supers are ending up in a cap blob on combat beacons.
Exactly CCP doesnt cater to whiners you are correct. So the incessant whining for them to seed supers and officer modules should fall on deaf ears thank you for making my point for me. There are reasons CCP chose not to seed these things and people come here every 30 seconds belaboring CCP for this stuff and most of the time its not for legitemate testing its for the guys who just want to play supercap epeen games on Sisi. If you think that's not the case you haven't paid attention to what goes on there friend.


Fixed quote. ISD Ezwal.
cheekybot Rotineque
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-07-17 21:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
hellswindstaff wrote:
cheekybot Rotineque wrote:
hellswindstaff wrote:


go "test" when 45 nyxes are chasing cruisers around 6-c then come back and post.


you didnt read my post did you, there's thousands of systems to test in, use them, 6-C is nothing more than a derp fest, dont like it go to another system, CCP doesnt cater to whiners on tranq, why should they do it on SISI, seed the supers and all mods, people who wanna actually test have ways at there disposal if they choose to use them


Come on lets be realistic........9/10 times those supers are ending up in a cap blob on combat beacons.
Exactly CCP doesnt cater to whiners you are correct. So the incessant whining for them to seed supers and officer modules should fall on deaf ears thank you for making my point for me.


whats the big deal with 6-C anyone who isnt newb to SISI knows you dont actually test anything there, your about the only one who is aginst the idea of seeding supers that consistantly protest's it, the fact of the matter is. its a test server, it should be fully featured, if you dont like what happens in 6-C go somewhere else, just like on tranq. i dont like getting blobbed either, i test on the other side of the universe with alliance members and corp members. if its not cap blobs it will be sub cap blobs so crying about it is useless, you can fix the situation for yourself by persuing other options


Fixed quote. ISD Ezwal.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-07-17 21:44:07 UTC
How long does it take to build a super?
How long between mirrors in this new development cycle?
how long does it take to upgrade sov from 0 to build a super in the first place?
If i dont have the correct roles in my alliance to build supercaps, but still want to test supers that i can fly, i have to get someone else to give me roles every two months, to build a cap on sisi?

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
hellswindstaff
Syndicate Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#19 - 2014-07-17 21:44:30 UTC  |  Edited by: hellswindstaff
Are there any ELITE super pilots is there such a thing btw?Question
You can get good with a Vagabond, or a Deimos, or a Dramiel...but a Nyx? Dude the thing goes 72/m sec and everyone wants to kill you.
cheekybot Rotineque
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-07-17 21:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: cheekybot Rotineque
hellswindstaff wrote:
Are there any ELITE super pilots is there such a thing btw?Question
You can get good with a Vagabond, or a Deimos, or a Dramiel...but a Nyx? Dude the thing goes 72/m sec and everyone wants to kill you.



a dude solo dropped on other caps and small fleets in a nyx with great sucess for over a year, so yeah i would say so




http://themittani.com/features/lone-hunter-danilaw%E2%80%99s-nyx just incase you didnt know :D
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