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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

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Author
Anthar Thebess
#821 - 2014-07-17 09:16:15 UTC
They successfully rebalanced their players.
That is for sure.

I don't care about how many active subscriptions they have - what matters to me is active players , that actually bring something creative to game.

Think about that we have around 24k players logging in.
- divide this by people flying on multiple accounts ; i usually do 2 , and every day login on 4 , now think about all this isboxer 50 account miners
- exclude players that just login for EVE : Skills Online
- exclude players that login , ask about if something will going to happen , but as many other players are doing the same , they logout 10 minutes later

How many from those 24k people online we will be left?

1. Hell, we will get new industry , faster in sov - more players will be able to produce more in the same amount of time!
2. We will get in next months next frigate rebalance and cruiser pass!
3. We will get bigger roaming fleets!

ad 1. But there will be less player to sell this to, damn my excel calculations where grate , if only there was enough people to buy stuff i produce!

ad 2. Those ships are grate , now only 40 jumps for someone to test this on , and not to get killed by 200 man bored firg roam.

ad 3. Roam tomorrow, finally there will be a reason to login again! We got 4 kills in our 200 man fleet ! Ops success , and we will have next roam in 3 days. Perfect timing , i will login and update my skills then.

Grate Job CCP!
EVE Online : Players Rebalanced
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#822 - 2014-07-17 09:58:47 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Rebalance, rebalance, paint job, rebalance. Lack of boldness?

First we had too many Jesus features slopped on our plates.
Now we have zero Jesus features.
Where's the balance between Jesus and basics??!!??



DEAR CCP

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/b6/b63ece67bfd4da2cd2c20fa48544e360850f87a139cc6e0361ab074e2caad995.jpg
Anthar Thebess
#823 - 2014-07-17 10:26:49 UTC
I think that is the reason why we lost 20k active players.
(of course this is much more than 20k , as people are shifting places all the time )

Focusing on some small features while ignoring bigger issues discourages new and old players.
Changes that needs to be done for higsec players :
- no corp ship aggression , we have duels
(this will lead corporations to be more friendly towards new players)
- more secure pos/corporation asset management.
(new people cannot own poses as the same roles will grant access to all corp poses.
- Account API limitation.
(many people don't like giving away all their informations , no more full account api, limited character api without ability to see whole account. Some new policy that will forbid enforcing by big blobs giving them full api)
- Staring skills , 1 character per account making new player actually able to do something!
- Reduction of new ship cost, 1 cheap ship per class in each race , so new player don't have to farm 200mil just to buy new battleship , that he will loose 3 days later.

And of course every thing you have in this topic regarding sov and power projection changes.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#824 - 2014-07-17 10:29:27 UTC
The biggest obstacle to CCP ever getting around to fixing (Sov/Null/Supers/Power Projection) which are all horribly unbalanced, is many veteran players enormous sense of entitlement.

I've been reading the FHC thread discussing this. It's depressing.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Anthar Thebess
#825 - 2014-07-17 10:32:10 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
The biggest obstacle to CCP ever getting around to fixing (Sov/Null/Supers/Power Projection) which are all horribly unbalanced, is many veteran players enormous sense of entitlement.

I've been reading the FHC thread discussing this. It's depressing.

FHC thread?
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#826 - 2014-07-17 10:49:39 UTC
I just check sov structures "hitpoints" (shield+hull+structure) on evelopedia

Hub - 192 500 000
TCU - 21 000 000

I've heard some ghost stories about sov "bashing", but this? Hilarious

Also is this guide accurate (most of evelopedia is trash):

SOV guide

It's hard to work out ideas without knowing current system.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Anthar Thebess
#827 - 2014-07-17 11:48:14 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
I just check sov structures "hitpoints" (shield+hull+structure) on evelopedia

Hub - 192 500 000
TCU - 21 000 000

I've heard some ghost stories about sov "bashing", but this? Hilarious

Also is this guide accurate (most of evelopedia is trash):

SOV guide

It's hard to work out ideas without knowing current system.


This EHP is nothing when you have enough supers.
The issue is that you have timers , a few day ones, and multiple on Hub or a station.
In order to move to this timer from the other side of eve , he needs about 30minutes.
If he is few regions away - he need even less time.

Amount of ehp forces you to use large numbers , and if those are sub capital numbers , a lot of time.
If you use capitals or supers - this will be still enough time to drop his fleet on top of your head.

Now lets assume that you where ready for this.
You placed a trap.
Now the next SOV nonsense come into the play :
- TIDI , it kick in , and trap is turning against you , as enemy can ping for every one and bring back every friend he have , even when this friend will login to the game 4 hours later , the fight will be still there.

Why?
You have TIDI 10% in reality much less. So in the TIDI system pass 1h while outside in the rest of eve 10h already passed.
Your modules are affected by overloaded node - you deal much less damage.

Now motherships can have around 60.000.000 ehp , titans way more.
But what is more important they will be repaired all the time, so in order to kill them you have to do few times more damage.
Now imagine yourself 70 those ships on grid , and 200+ on the way from the all upcoming time zones , until the downtime.

As long as moving large group of players+ ships AND (super)capitals from one side of eve to another will take less than time needed to kill a super under a TIDI, or kill something before timer runs out.
Nothing will change, and game will be still bleeding players.


Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#828 - 2014-07-17 12:09:51 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
This EHP is nothing when you have enough supers.
The issue is that you have timers , a few day ones, and multiple on Hub or a station.
In order to move to this timer from the other side of eve , he needs about 30minutes.
If he is few regions away - he need even less time.


Do you mean a timer that reinforce hub when holder is not present?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Punctator
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#829 - 2014-07-17 12:16:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Punctator
stupid ccp.
let people destroy
give them real power not ******* 5% boost pear skill level.
let them destroy stations - let them destroy moons, planets, let them destroy gates and
make thair own ships into big bomb makeing KABOOM killing half of grid.
this game will die, this game is dieing for long time, because of stupid game developers.

rebalances is WASTE of TIME. It is not problem one ship is better then another it is even better in fact.
but one player even with 200.000.000.000SP can do notheing... and it is realy realy bad.

players with skills should be able kill MANY like in other games - this is that simple
and this is true fun.
This is answer why eve population is so small because it has no fun here, only ******* job.
Anthar Thebess
#830 - 2014-07-17 12:51:33 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

Do you mean a timer that reinforce hub when holder is not present?

You reinforce ihub, usually no one is even bothering to come when you are doing this.
You get timer 2d and 4h
This means that in 2d and 4 hours you can come and put ihub to next reinforce timer ( not the final).

So you are waiting, and alliance that owns this system, can easily attend this timer.

In theory this was ok.
People are from different timezones , have life...
But this lead to this (those are only renter alliances, but many small holding alliances actually rent this sov from bigger entity, mostly NCPL) :
Northern Associates.
systems : 695
Brothers of Tangra
systems : 365
Brothers of Tangra
Systems : 128

If you check most of large alliances that hold space from the both blue blobs you will notice very bad things :
- they own a large amount of space
- space that is really used is minimal
- most of the systems have 1-2 random jumps per day , and even if they are on some pipe , most of the jumps come from non associated people

Why all they keep this space?
Because they can drop on each of this multi day timer people from the other side of eve universe , and go back to the space they actually live within 30 minutes.

Some times they don't even bother to come in full force.
Just send enough people to do the job, while keeping most of the forces 2-3 regions away - because broken mobility allows them to arrive to spot within few minutes.


Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#831 - 2014-07-17 13:13:51 UTC
So to claim system players must anchor TeritorailClaimUnits, then they may place Hubs there for benefits . To contest sovereignty they have to deploy SovereigntyBlocadeUnits in order to have possibilty to shoot Hubs which has dual reinforcement timer, one for shields and one for armor (days). Now with ability to deploy as much forces as want to anywhere they want...no wonder null is empty. This is tremendously boring. For how long have you guys been playing this way? This is most hardcore game community i've ever met.

You want to claim territory shoot TCU and anchor own. Why using BCU? (who get this insanely idea, what is this? chess?). Reduce the TCU EHP a lot. 20 man suicidal raid should get this down (cruisers maybe).
Remove timers from HUBs. You get attacked? Defend the thing and/or repair it.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#832 - 2014-07-17 13:31:32 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
So to claim system players must anchor TeritorailClaimUnits, then they may place Hubs there for benefits . To contest sovereignty they have to deploy SovereigntyBlocadeUnits in order to have possibilty to shoot Hubs which has dual reinforcement timer, one for shields and one for armor (days). Now with ability to deploy as much forces as want to anywhere they want...no wonder null is empty. This is tremendously boring. For how long have you guys been playing this way? This is most hardcore game community i've ever met.

You want to claim territory shoot TCU and anchor own. Why using BCU? (who get this insanely idea, what is this? chess?). Reduce the TCU EHP a lot. 20 man suicidal raid should get this down (cruisers maybe).
Remove timers from HUBs. You get attacked? Defend the thing and/or repair it.




they seem too be glorified flags that take a beating .. it shouldn't really be what determines SOV at all ...
roman empire didn't dominate the world because they could protect there flags better than anyone else..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Anthar Thebess
#833 - 2014-07-17 13:35:44 UTC
Well this was working, at least partially.
Until both coalitions didn't get their numbers so high that there is no way to brake them on the timer.
Because :
- they will put enough people in the contested system just before timer , that putting your , will crash the node OR you will get TIDI 1% and this fight will be for next 20hours , until DT
- they will put enough capitals and supers , that will block you from any thing, as DPS needed to BRAKE their spider tank is so big that again node will die , or TIDI will make this fight till the DT without ability to achieve any thing





SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#834 - 2014-07-17 13:53:38 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Well this was working, at least partially.
Until both coalitions didn't get their numbers so high that there is no way to brake them on the timer.
Because :
- they will put enough people in the contested system just before timer , that putting your , will crash the node OR you will get TIDI 1% and this fight will be for next 20hours , until DT
- they will put enough capitals and supers , that will block you from any thing, as DPS needed to BRAKE their spider tank is so big that again node will die , or TIDI will make this fight till the DT without ability to achieve any thing







Agreed. It's too easy for ships to flood a system under tidi. To easy for reinforcements all the way across Eve to get there before any significant tidi-time passes in the contested system.

With current game mechanics you'll never be able to stop gate-to-gate travel, but CCP could certainly do something effectively about caps and titan bridging into tidi-systems.

And I would bet most of the needed code to do so is already in place. You could have Tidi generate a meter much like you get for the border systems around an incursion...the higher the tidi, the higher the meter, the longer it takes to bridge or jump into the system. Or, if CCP introduces a spool up timer for all titan bridges and jump drives, it could be linked to those instead. This wouldn't stop any ships that were already on stand-by with their bridge or jump engine pre-spooled, but it would certainly significantly slow down the arrival of any reinforcements, allowing a potentially meaningful battle to occurr in the contested system.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#835 - 2014-07-17 14:15:32 UTC
Just remove ALL notifications.

If your POS gets attacked... Look after it!
If your SOV gets attacked... LOOK after it!
Timer?... Fly to the POS and check it out!
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#836 - 2014-07-17 14:19:53 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
Just remove ALL notifications.

If your POS gets attacked... Look after it!
If your SOV gets attacked... LOOK after it!
Timer?... Fly to the POS and check it out!


Remove the war dec notification. That would be interesting. Players and corps would actually have to check their corp/alliance info to see if any are pending or active.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#837 - 2014-07-17 15:11:45 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
The biggest obstacle to CCP ever getting around to fixing (Sov/Null/Supers/Power Projection) which are all horribly unbalanced, is many veteran players enormous sense of entitlement.

I've been reading the FHC thread discussing this. It's depressing.

FHC thread?


Failheap challenge

http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?17149-CCP-Fozzie-and-team-are-discussing-my-favorite-subject-in-a-thread

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#838 - 2014-07-17 15:17:42 UTC
Look at this


http://themittani.com/news/amarrmatar-fw-huolas-irregulars


Seems like everyone involved is having lots of fun. Why can't sov-warfare be like this?

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#839 - 2014-07-17 15:52:54 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
they seem too be glorified flags that take a beating .. it shouldn't really be what determines SOV at all ...
roman empire didn't dominate the world because they could protect there flags better than anyone else..


Ahh Roman Empire. Romans keeped peace by pax romana (and good politics to the conquered nations). 30 legions deployed among empire provinces. It was good in primes inter pares period. After great conquest era they build great limes along their borders. Without good mobile armies, and reforms they were flooded by roaming "barbarian" nations. If they had cynos...every general wet dream. Firepower and mobility. Maybe copy some of that to EvE. Coalitions as clay legs titans.

What if CCP:

-remove cynos option for combat ships or restrict to cruisers and lower classes,
-capitals can jump only to closest systems with 15 minutes timer to recharge drives, leviatans with huge fire power but slow,
-give ability to roams into coalitions sov system (like "barbarian" raids) for planetary resources etc. Some motivation to attack this "land of plenty", swift attacks, to steal or destroy and loot, not necessary to conquer, real conflict driver, far more than ESS. CCP you have huge oportunities, think huge,
-Sov structures will have reduced EHP greatly (defends whats yours),
-rebalance resources in null, some system with greatly increased ISK oportunities (conflict driver),
-pirates trying to recapture systems, attacking players sov and poses,
-sov is establised by some kind of loyality to corporation, some kind of pax romana, money, fear etc. players choice,
-reduce JF abilities. Conflict driver. Is it better to stay in far systems, good to defend or close to empire borders with good logistics but vulnerable.

Any weakness of above points?

Anthar Thebess wrote:
In theory this was ok.
People are from different timezones , have life...


This is what coalitions are for, gather people from all timezones.


"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#840 - 2014-07-17 16:12:47 UTC
In the grand scheme of things, I would not assume that keeping track of capacitor (or shield) levels inside station would be difficult to accomplish. Why do we auto-magically get filled up at station? Might be a small piece to the puzzle to finally fix this.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka