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New dev blog: Anomalies revisited

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CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#341 - 2011-12-06 09:57:11 UTC
BeanBagKing wrote:

CCP Grayscale, if you could come back to this thread and respond to a few questions?
1) Was it your intention to make all bounty anoms balanced?
2) Was it your intention to make drone region anoms worth less than the rest of Eve?
2) Was it your intention to make all anoms (including drone regions) balanced?
4) If the answer to both #1 and #2 are yes, then why single out drone regions?
5) If #2 is no, do you plan on revisiting drone anoms and assessing their value?
6) If you do balance drone regions, can we get a rough ETA?

I tried to keep the questions fairly simple and yes or no just so I could gauge where CCP stands on this. I would appreciate as much elaboration as you can/will give though. You asked in the dev blog for any data we've collected "in the wild". For reference, here is what I've put together for current drone sites. http://www.orderofatlas.com/eve/drone_hordes.pdf


First, thanks for the data, always much appreciated :)

In response to your questions:
1) Yes (balanced in the sense that they follow a progression, rather than that they're all equal to one another)
2) No (it was our intention not to systematically adjust them at this time; other than that we didn't have any specific intentions regarding drone anoms)
2) No (see above)
4) (Skipped due to not meeting the criteria.)
5) Yes (it's "outstanding work" that needs doing, same as the missing drone plexes, and for the same reason: the drone loot structure makes this kind of work significantly less straightforward than it is for the other factions)
6) No (until work is actually committed to a sprint we're not in a position to give useful timelines for stuff at this level of detail)

The underlying problem here is that we can't really balance drones while they're still dropping alloys, because the amount each drone is worth is inversely proportional to the number of drones being killed. Every extra unit of zydrine coming out of the drone regions lowers the price of zydrine a little further. We could double the drop rate on all sites and all this would achieve is to keep drone region income about the same while also further marginalizing mining. Similarly, I'd not be totally surprised if this "nerf" corrects itself to a large degree over time, as the decreased supply (if it's as big a deal as it's being made out to be) allows mineral prices to rise.
Sevena Black
The Black Redemption
#342 - 2011-12-06 13:47:24 UTC
The ISK buff is not the issue. When in 0.0 you burn through the isk fast enough. Unless you're a carebear, which is fine. But I'll pay you a visit and give you a reason to spend ISK :P

The sink is in place so to speak. The issue is automated EVE anomaly running programs. The so called "botters". Even when running 2 carriers and running 2 sanctums, I cant even come close to their income. Thats because I have to log off regularly to attend to my RL (also known as "wife").

Simply put: For normal players, the ISK increase is nice and helps to fuel the war. Remove the botters and the sink will equal the influx.

One idea might be to give NPC's more powerfull AI (like sleeper sites). Another may be to make PvE sites modular as was suggested earlier in this thread.
BeanBagKing
The Order of Atlas
#343 - 2011-12-06 15:24:11 UTC  |  Edited by: BeanBagKing
CCP Greyscale wrote:


First, thanks for the data, always much appreciated :)

In response to your questions:
1) Yes (balanced in the sense that they follow a progression, rather than that they're all equal to one another)
2) No (it was our intention not to systematically adjust them at this time; other than that we didn't have any specific intentions regarding drone anoms)
2) No (see above)
4) (Skipped due to not meeting the criteria.)
5) Yes (it's "outstanding work" that needs doing, same as the missing drone plexes, and for the same reason: the drone loot structure makes this kind of work significantly less straightforward than it is for the other factions)
6) No (until work is actually committed to a sprint we're not in a position to give useful timelines for stuff at this level of detail)

The underlying problem here is that we can't really balance drones while they're still dropping alloys, because the amount each drone is worth is inversely proportional to the number of drones being killed. Every extra unit of zydrine coming out of the drone regions lowers the price of zydrine a little further. We could double the drop rate on all sites and all this would achieve is to keep drone region income about the same while also further marginalizing mining. Similarly, I'd not be totally surprised if this "nerf" corrects itself to a large degree over time, as the decreased supply (if it's as big a deal as it's being made out to be) allows mineral prices to rise.


Thanks for the response Grayscale o7 and I hope you're still also watching the "Drone regions improvement suggestion" thread in the russian forums, a lot of the convo has moved over there.
Mr Fondo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#344 - 2011-12-06 15:41:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Fondo
RubyPorto wrote:
Steele Balz wrote:
Silent nerf to the drones again !!! YO if you want to nerf drones so much why not start by taking them out of all regions but the drone regions , Lets face it they are drones they belong in the drone regions why give them to every tom **** and harry in evry region of the game . you want to balance then anoms ha what a joke you make me laugh . Drones and what they are worth is dictated by the mineral market good luck with that sparky.


whats up with the Hordes now the spawn comes in waves like some noob got popped and whined til some dev somewhere
had enough , Tell me was it a goon


1) yay for silent nerfs
2)are you ever going to seriously consider fixing the drone regions to bring it up to speed with all other regions because the isk per hour suck unlike every other region
2 a) cosmic sigs have been broken since drones were intro'd (yay for crapy drone bpc)
3) escalations welp already nerfed the S@%t out of them already (thankyousirmayihaveanother)
4) stop nerfing drones and fix drone regions, try harder this time


The change was to fix a Bug (borderline exploit per CCP Greyscale) where shooting certain structures would spawn the waves before they were supposed to.

1. Not silent. CCP Greyscale mentioned it in here, and it was on SISI well before patch day.
2. Before the change (which was classed as a bugfix) Drone hubs were possibly the best isk/hr anomalies availiable
3. Dunno anything about this
4. Half agreed. Drone Poo needs to go in order to allow mining to be a viable profession in Eve.



A bug they didnt fix for years.... its there own fault people are so mad about fixing it now... letting it go on for years then saying oh it was a bug.. sorry this is how its suppose to be now.. k thx

Oh and the freaking Drone regions are all botters screw then anyways argument is getting abit old..
there are thousands of players out here who play just like you and dont bot.. so screw you.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#345 - 2011-12-06 20:10:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Hey Greyscale can you or Turbefield or whoever look up and post how many sov improvements upgrades there are running in nullsec that are not sanctun anoms or grav belts (ie: radar generators, wh spawners)? Because I'm pretty sure that's a problem right there.
Mr Fondo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#346 - 2011-12-07 14:27:30 UTC
RaZor Flash wrote:
BeanBagKing wrote:
RaZor Flash wrote:

I really dont get it, they are upset because the ships come in waves instead of all at once? Is it the same number of ships?

If it is, the only thing I can think of why are they upset is because they sit in a thanatos and can lock everything up and just pew pew.
Waves are amazing for pretty much everything else.


RaZor, for many, yes, this is what they are voicing if you asked them why they are upset. However, there are underlying reasons about why it makes them that upset. I wrote up quite a long report on exactly what difference this has made to running hordes. I've tried to make it understandable to anyone that doesn't live in drone regions. I realize it's long, but please read it if you want to know exactly what the issue is.

http://www.orderofatlas.com/eve/drone_hordes.pdf


I read it and I get your point.

I will try to paraphrase to make sure I understand.

Essentially, Drone regions are terrible but you were able to warp in with a thanatos cherry pick the BS , loot salvage then move on to the next one?

It seems that they really nerfed the thanatos pilots of the drone lands, the only viable way to make decent isk/hour there.

Since the drone regions are quiet, people could take advantage of that quietness and use their carriers without much fear and make the region profitable by ratting in carriers without too much fear, or am I mistaken?

I'm just terrified cause you keep comparing drone regions to other 0.0 anomalies, when we should compare everything to high sec incursions.

What you should do is go to high sec, run incusions, then make a nice little chart/paragraph of how ******** incursions are :P.



The fact that drone regions are quite is irrelevant that has nothing to do with anything.. thats players fault. Doing anything because of this would be one more step to ruining the sandbox that is EVE.
Mr Fondo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#347 - 2011-12-07 14:39:08 UTC
oh and a fact everyone is forgetting is drone regions isk changes constantly and honestly is getting lower and lower as mineral prices drop. Zydrine used to be are biggest source of income but now its hit rock bottom.. i remember cpl years ago it was selling for 3x it is now.. Now its probably trit that gives us the most bang for are buck. Zydrine and other high end minerals are going to continue to go down and down.. If your keeping alloys you need to increase the ammount of high end minerals things need to build or soon youll find zydrine at 500isk/ and mega at 1200.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#348 - 2011-12-07 15:45:06 UTC
As a point of order, the changes to the drones sites had nothing to do with the the changes to the anomilies, which is in fact the subject of this thread. As such the thread is by this stage waaaaay off topic.

Could the drone region residents go somewhere else and make a seperate thread about their concerns, and could Greyscale come back here and give us a timeline on when he is going to redo the anomilies. Again.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
WuMaTih
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#349 - 2011-12-07 15:48:42 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
As a point of order, the changes to the drones sites had nothing to do with the the changes to the anomilies, which is in fact the subject of this thread. As such the thread is by this stage waaaaay off topic.

Could the drone region residents go somewhere else and make a seperate thread about their concerns, and could Greyscale come back here and give us a timeline on when he is going to redo the anomilies. Again.



uhh drone hordes are anoms and they did a significant change to the way they work.. This is exactly where this should be discussed...
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#350 - 2011-12-07 16:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Desert Ice78
WuMaTih wrote:
Desert Ice78 wrote:
As a point of order, the changes to the drones sites had nothing to do with the the changes to the anomilies, which is in fact the subject of this thread. As such the thread is by this stage waaaaay off topic.

Could the drone region residents go somewhere else and make a seperate thread about their concerns, and could Greyscale come back here and give us a timeline on when he is going to redo the anomilies. Again.



uhh drone hordes are anoms and they did a significant change to the way they work.. This is exactly where this should be discussed...


No, they didn't change anything, just fixed a bug.

CCP Greyscale wrote:


BigCountry wrote:
Again you have made changes to the anamolies in the drone regions without mentioning it ...
So I wanna be first to thank you for making even more work for us out here to make money considering i dont see any increase to isk gained from them... All I see is taht drone hordes now take longer , and more work, for the same ISK..


Drone region anomalies weren't touched as part of this specific project - we're just balancing on bounty payout this time around and as drones don't have a bounty, we still don't have the tools to properly assess their worth.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#351 - 2011-12-09 07:33:29 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
No, they didn't change anything, just fixed a bug.


A bug/fix that has caused many people who were forced to spend more isk and time on getting the minerals/items/isk to PVP with, to now spend far longer mining, running hordes etc to gain ISK/materials to PVP

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#352 - 2011-12-09 12:24:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Desert Ice78
Headerman wrote:
Desert Ice78 wrote:
No, they didn't change anything, just fixed a bug.


A bug/fix that has caused many people who were forced to spend more isk and time on getting the minerals/items/isk to PVP with, to now spend far longer mining, running hordes etc to gain ISK/materials to PVP


I didn't say you can't talk about it, just that this thread was not the place.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
Sarrgon
Avalonians United
#353 - 2011-12-09 22:14:26 UTC
What I don't understand is, why not get rid of the alloys that the drones drop and replace them with regular loot and bounty like on other rats. Would make it much easier to get them inline with the other anoms and a chance to get some faction loot drops.

Plus with the reduction in minerals hitting the market cause of no alloys, will help out mineral prices and more ISK for legit miners. To me, the alloys is helping to make more problems then they solve and to get rid of them for regular bounties would help out the game in various ways.
Sigras
Conglomo
#354 - 2011-12-11 00:56:18 UTC
Sarrgon wrote:
What I don't understand is, why not get rid of the alloys that the drones drop and replace them with regular loot and bounty like on other rats. Would make it much easier to get them inline with the other anoms and a chance to get some faction loot drops.

Plus with the reduction in minerals hitting the market cause of no alloys, will help out mineral prices and more ISK for legit miners. To me, the alloys is helping to make more problems then they solve and to get rid of them for regular bounties would help out the game in various ways.

The problem is that this would cause even MORE of an isk faucet then ratting is now. It also removes some of the unique aspects of 0.0

I wonder if there is some other way to differentiate the drone regions from the rest of Eve
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#355 - 2011-12-11 14:15:01 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Sarrgon wrote:
What I don't understand is, why not get rid of the alloys that the drones drop and replace them with regular loot and bounty like on other rats. Would make it much easier to get them inline with the other anoms and a chance to get some faction loot drops.

Plus with the reduction in minerals hitting the market cause of no alloys, will help out mineral prices and more ISK for legit miners. To me, the alloys is helping to make more problems then they solve and to get rid of them for regular bounties would help out the game in various ways.

The problem is that this would cause even MORE of an isk faucet then ratting is now. It also removes some of the unique aspects of 0.0

I wonder if there is some other way to differentiate the drone regions from the rest of Eve


I'll take isk faucet and less unique 0.0 over the continued f*cking over of miners any day.

Drone poo has killed mining. Changing drone poo into *anything* else would be an improvement as far as keeping the various individual streams of income in 0.0 relatively balanced.

Hell, make them drop tags that concord buys. Will kill the regions, but mining needs to matter in 0.0 again.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Sarrgon
Avalonians United
#356 - 2011-12-11 21:28:44 UTC
Don't see how it would really create a ISK faucet, just replacing how people in drone regions gets paid. From refining the alloys into minerals then selling the minerals or making and selling ships etc they make out of them. Then they would just get the ISK directly.

But also would take a lot of minerals off of the market, help raise the mineral prices so the miners can make more of a decent living again. To me, its a win win situation.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#357 - 2011-12-11 23:27:42 UTC
Sarrgon wrote:
Don't see how it would really create a ISK faucet, just replacing how people in drone regions gets paid. From refining the alloys into minerals then selling the minerals or making and selling ships etc they make out of them. Then they would just get the ISK directly.

But also would take a lot of minerals off of the market, help raise the mineral prices so the miners can make more of a decent living again. To me, its a win win situation.


Isk faucets are anytime isk comes from nowhere. Bounties are one of the biggest.

Minerals are in no way an Isk faucet. Drone region people get raw materials, other people give them Isk in exchange. Not an Isk Faucet.


All that said, I prefer Isk faucet over continuing screwing miners with their pants on.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Sarrgon
Avalonians United
#358 - 2011-12-12 02:42:21 UTC
Could go back and forth on if it is a ISK faucet or not. But think most agree that the game would be much better off if they got rid of the Drone Crystals.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#359 - 2011-12-12 02:49:05 UTC
Sarrgon wrote:
Could go back and forth on if it is a ISK faucet or not. But think most agree that the game would be much better off if they got rid of the Drone Crystals.


The definition of Isk Faucet is the addition of ISK into the economy. The only way that happens is when NPCs give isk to Capsuleers. Drone Poop can never do that.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Sarrgon
Avalonians United
#360 - 2011-12-12 04:31:47 UTC
But also could say, the alloys that drones drop is as good as ISK and much of it gets sold directly for ISK, gets traded as if ISK or gets made into ships and other goods to be sold for ISK. IT's like saying mining gold IRL doesn't get you money, only the minting press does. But I guess it all depends on how you look at it. But then why do so many say drone lands are such a ISK faucet if it isn't?