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Question about RMT

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Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-07-16 12:09:05 UTC
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:
Technically it's RMT



so, you posted a question to which you answered yourself already.


any other questions?

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Christina Project
Screaming Head in a Box.
#22 - 2014-07-16 12:13:05 UTC
Lachra wrote:
dustonio wrote:
With transferring ownership of a character without posting in the character bazaar AND no trace of isk transfer between the account, they have to assume RMT and thus ban the accounts in question.


How would they know that the account has been transferred, however? if it was my job to see if characters are being subject to RMT, what would be the identifying factors if there was nothing on record? I have no idea who's behind the keyboard at a given moment.

Disclaimer: I have never conducted RMT, nor have any interest in transferring my account.

Uhm... accounts are not being transferred, only characters. Handing someone my accountname
and password on a piece of paper isn't really transferring the account anywhere.

[i]"Don't look into another human's bowl to see how much he has ... ... look into his bowl to see if he has enough !" - Sol[/i]
Grobalobobob Bob
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2014-07-16 12:13:59 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
No. It would not. Essentially, as far as the internet is concerned, you gave this guy your character. It doesn't matter if he's a plumber. It doesn't matter if he was at your house. It's irrelevant. It's up to him totally if he wants to accept money, or something else for his services.

In your case no money was involved. That being the case, no money was involved. There are those that would (have) argue the supplies used cost money, and the plumbers time is worth money. These things are the plumber's concern, not yours. He's free to spend his money and time any way he sees fit (as long as its legal). If he wishes to transact with you in a way where no money is involved, he's free to do so.

Since no money was involved...the "M" in RMT doesn't exist. Ipso facto, wtf are all these people going on about? Believe me, if someone tried to pursue this in court claiming RMT occurred they would be laughed out by the judge who would (naturally) refuse to hear the case, and would investigate if the pursuant attorney really did attend law school, rather than get his degree by mailing in a cereal box top and waiting six to ten weeks.


TBH this.

Serene Repose, i think you nailed right on the head; my exact doubts on this.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#24 - 2014-07-16 12:16:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Wacktopia
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:
So if I gave my 100m SP eve character to my plumber for installing a basin and taps, would that be against the EULA?

Technically it's RMT, yet, would CCP really ban the account because of a basin, pair of taps and some grouting?

...just curious...


Serene Repose wrote:
There are those that would (have) argue the supplies used cost money, and the plumbers time is worth money. These things are the plumber's concern, not yours. He's free to spend his money and time any way he sees fit (as long as its legal). If he wishes to transact with you in a way where no money is involved, he's free to do so.


Technically your plumber has also just committed tax evasion since the value of any goods or any service you offer must be added into your income if they're the kinds of things you normally earn income from. Whilst your EVE character technically holds no value, for tax purposes in this context it would likely be argued to have a value equivalent to the service performed.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Emma Muutaras
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-07-16 12:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Emma Muutaras
Serene Repose wrote:
No. It would not. Essentially, as far as the internet is concerned, you gave this guy your character. It doesn't matter if he's a plumber. It doesn't matter if he was at your house. It's irrelevant. It's up to him totally if he wants to accept money, or something else for his services.

In your case no money was involved. That being the case, no money was involved. There are those that would (have) argue the supplies used cost money, and the plumbers time is worth money. These things are the plumber's concern, not yours. He's free to spend his money and time any way he sees fit (as long as its legal). If he wishes to transact with you in a way where no money is involved, he's free to do so.

Since no money was involved...the "M" in RMT doesn't exist. Ipso facto, wtf are all these people going on about? Believe me, if someone tried to pursue this in court claiming RMT occurred they would be laughed out by the judge who would (naturally) refuse to hear the case, and would investigate if the pursuant attorney really did attend law school, rather than get his degree by mailing in a cereal box top and waiting six to ten weeks.



to this i would say that although the M stands for money your right no money changed hands, however most people consider goods or services received as payment a substitute for money and is still considered as money in the eyes of the law (in the uk at least).

if you employed a illegal immigrant in the UK and payed them with accommodation and food ( a substitute for money ) you would still receive a fine of £10,000
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#26 - 2014-07-16 12:34:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Serene Repose wrote:
Since no money was involved...the "M" in RMT doesn't exist. Ipso facto, wtf are all these people going on about?
The fact that RMT isn't limited to money but all forms of out-of-game goods and services.

Or, to quote the old GM post, “The only out-of-game services that may be sold for ISK are directly EVE related web services, such as killboard hosting, ventrilo/teamspeak servers, corporation website hosting, and such. No, you may not get your mate to wash your car for ISK, even if he will wear a EVE t-shirt in the process.” Trading your character, being an EVE asset, follows the same logic.
dustonio
CBs Invasion Kills
#27 - 2014-07-16 12:43:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Since no money was involved...the "M" in RMT doesn't exist. Ipso facto, wtf are all these people going on about?
The fact that RMT isn't limited to money but all forms of out-of-game goods and services.

Or, to quote the old GM post, “The only out-of-game services that may be sold for ISK are directly EVE related web services, such as killboard hosting, ventrilo/teamspeak servers, corporation website hosting, and such. No, you may not get your mate to wash your car for ISK, even if he will wear a EVE t-shirt in the process.” Trading your character, being an EVE asset, follows the same logic.


Thank you... you sir, are a saint who explained it better than i.
Grobalobobob Bob
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2014-07-16 12:47:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Since no money was involved...the "M" in RMT doesn't exist. Ipso facto, wtf are all these people going on about?
The fact that RMT isn't limited to money but all forms of out-of-game goods and services.

Or, to quote the old GM post, “The only out-of-game services that may be sold for ISK are directly EVE related web services, such as killboard hosting, ventrilo/teamspeak servers, corporation website hosting, and such. No, you may not get your mate to wash your car for ISK, even if he will wear a EVE t-shirt in the process.” Trading your character, being an EVE asset, follows the same logic.


Thanks Tippia that effectively drew a line on that one... however, opens up a can of worms in the other hand.

Gifting.

If I give my Paladin to a friend. That breaks no rule. If I give my friend 300,000,000 isk, it breaks no rules.

If the reason for the gift remains anonymous, then the gift remains a gift and no rules are broken I assume.

I give some guy a Moros.

the fact that he provided me a service in real life has no relevance to anyone other than him and myself, be it he washed my car, plumbed a shower, gave me a house. In that instance the paper trail ends with me giving some eve dude a 'Dread'.

In effect. yes RMT for real life currency or services appears in CCPs eyes as one and the same, be it for plex, marauder, or titan.

Is GIFTING therefore illegal? Or gifting with intent if it can be proved?
Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-07-16 12:58:22 UTC
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Since no money was involved...the "M" in RMT doesn't exist. Ipso facto, wtf are all these people going on about?
The fact that RMT isn't limited to money but all forms of out-of-game goods and services.

Or, to quote the old GM post, “The only out-of-game services that may be sold for ISK are directly EVE related web services, such as killboard hosting, ventrilo/teamspeak servers, corporation website hosting, and such. No, you may not get your mate to wash your car for ISK, even if he will wear a EVE t-shirt in the process.” Trading your character, being an EVE asset, follows the same logic.


Thanks Tippia that effectively drew a line on that one... however, opens up a can of worms in the other hand.

Gifting.

If I give my Paladin to a friend. That breaks no rule. If I give my friend 300,000,000 isk, it breaks no rules.

If the reason for the gift remains anonymous, then the gift remains a gift and no rules are broken I assume.

I give some guy a Moros.

the fact that he provided me a service in real life has no relevance to anyone other than him and myself, be it he washed my car, plumbed a shower, gave me a house. In that instance the paper trail ends with me giving some eve dude a 'Dread'.

In effect. yes RMT for real life currency or services appears in CCPs eyes as one and the same, be it for plex, marauder, or titan.

Is GIFTING therefore illegal? Or gifting with intent if it can be proved?


Unless you're actually paying the dude a moros to actually do your stuff yes. Unless I'm guessing "Hey here's some RL money and a bonus moros to go for doing stuff".

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-07-16 12:58:36 UTC
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Serene Repose wrote:
Since no money was involved...the "M" in RMT doesn't exist. Ipso facto, wtf are all these people going on about?
The fact that RMT isn't limited to money but all forms of out-of-game goods and services.

Or, to quote the old GM post, “The only out-of-game services that may be sold for ISK are directly EVE related web services, such as killboard hosting, ventrilo/teamspeak servers, corporation website hosting, and such. No, you may not get your mate to wash your car for ISK, even if he will wear a EVE t-shirt in the process.” Trading your character, being an EVE asset, follows the same logic.


Thanks Tippia that effectively drew a line on that one... however, opens up a can of worms in the other hand.

Gifting.

If I give my Paladin to a friend. That breaks no rule. If I give my friend 300,000,000 isk, it breaks no rules.

If the reason for the gift remains anonymous, then the gift remains a gift and no rules are broken I assume.

I give some guy a Moros.

the fact that he provided me a service in real life has no relevance to anyone other than him and myself, be it he washed my car, plumbed a shower, gave me a house. In that instance the paper trail ends with me giving some eve dude a 'Dread'.

In effect. yes RMT for real life currency or services appears in CCPs eyes as one and the same, be it for plex, marauder, or titan.

Is GIFTING therefore illegal? Or gifting with intent if it can be proved?

Just like in real life: "Mr. Police Officer this isn't a bribe, it's a gift from the bottom of my heart. Honest." Three guesses how well this works out.

Believe me, the idea isn't nearly as smart as you think it is, and you aren't being nearly as clever as you seem to think. Nor is it the first time anyone ever had such a brilliant idea, and yet for some reason it never works out.
Grobalobobob Bob
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-07-16 13:05:24 UTC
No one is trying to be clever, I just want to know if i'm going to get banned if I chuck my paladin in the corp hanger in return for my real life friend, and corpie for buying dinner.

I'm simply trying to gauge where the line is.
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#32 - 2014-07-16 13:12:37 UTC
I'm not sure if its legal, RMT-ing or anything like that;

Lets say you give him your login credentials and change the creditcard billing your account to his card.
Cavalira
Habemus
#33 - 2014-07-16 13:18:35 UTC
Everything in EVE is the property of CCP. They can ban whatever they feel like without consequences.

Makes you think when you've spent years farming for titan.
Anthar Thebess
#34 - 2014-07-16 13:26:39 UTC
Well there are more of the RMT in this game than most of the people want to see.
You can get banned for direct transfers of ISK/Plexes for real $.
So many people found new way of laundering this operations.

They are selling or buying
- Creating Corp web pages
- Hosting web pages
- Access to out of game tools
- Corp Team Speaks
- etc

In all of those cases someone offers something officially , without delivering it , or pseudo delivering it , and he gets for this ISK or Plex every month.

All $ is being traded out side of the game, and are not traceable.
No one got banned , for selling or buying out of game "help" for in game isk.

You don't even have to be trading this from your alts , just call isk/plex contracts "for hosting corp/alliance web page"

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

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E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#35 - 2014-07-16 13:27:15 UTC
Chribba wrote:
If it's technically RMT, what makes you think it's ok?


I think it would be the same as a female player trading her services for a Titan. Oops
Emma Muutaras
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-07-16 13:33:11 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Chribba wrote:
If it's technically RMT, what makes you think it's ok?


I think it would be the same as a female player trading her services for a Titan. Oops



thats a bit sexist why cant a male trade his services for a Titan
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-07-16 13:37:18 UTC
Grobalobobob Bob wrote:
So if I gave my 100m SP eve character to my plumber for installing a basin and taps, would that be against the EULA?

Technically it's RMT, yet, would CCP really ban the account because of a basin, pair of taps and some grouting?

...just curious...

Not RMT but breaks the EULA.. since no account transfer without rendering 2 PLEX unto Caesar is allowed.

If your plumber friend swallows a mushroom and then eats a star, I'm not sure CCP would be able to do anything against him.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-07-16 13:38:05 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Chribba wrote:
If it's technically RMT, what makes you think it's ok?


I think it would be the same as a female player trading her services for a Titan. Oops

You mean.. like making a sandwich?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Grobalobobob Bob
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2014-07-16 13:47:22 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Chribba wrote:
If it's technically RMT, what makes you think it's ok?


I think it would be the same as a female player trading her services for a Titan. Oops

You mean.. like making a sandwich?



That's what it's called these days? Shocked

And there's the girl next door offering me a 'sandwich' and I said "no thanks, I'm not hungry".. what an idiot.. might go around later see if the offer is still there Twisted
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#40 - 2014-07-16 15:34:40 UTC
dustonio wrote:
With transferring ownership of a character without posting in the character bazaar AND no trace of isk transfer between the account, they have to assume RMT and thus ban the accounts in question.


Plenty of those in my history.

Moving my characters from one acct to another once they are trained to the level needed. No post. No ISK transfer.

They got their $20 and that's the bottom line really. Be a sad day when they shoot themselves in the foot by banning for that.

Mr Epeen Cool
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