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Lack of a high end caldari rail platform
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Kiryen O'Bannon
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2014-07-14 21:21:07 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
The Vulture is arguably one of the best high end fleet ships in the game right now.


Good luck finding a "fleet" of pilots that actually trained 15 ranks of Charisma skills up to V to be able to fly command ships.


Pandemic Legion shows up with a fleet of Vultures in V-3 a couple times a week to wonder why we dnt fight them in a kitchen sink.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Dally Lama
Doomheim
#42 - 2014-07-15 04:13:30 UTC
Vulture is not a pirate or navy battleship.

There should be a pirate or navy battleship that utilizes rails primarily.

Why? Because ever other weapon type is represented.

New Fitting Window | Distances above 10km | Maximums for buy orders
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2014-07-15 06:13:20 UTC
Dally Lama wrote:
Vulture is not a pirate or navy battleship.

There should be a pirate or navy battleship that utilizes rails primarily.

Why? Because ever other weapon type is represented.


Please explain the logical process how you arrived at the conclusion that the vindi and navy mega do not represent rails, but drones are represented.

I just want to know.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#44 - 2014-07-15 06:28:46 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:


Please explain the logical process how you arrived at the conclusion that the vindi and navy mega do not represent rails, but drones are represented.

I just want to know.


Because neither of them use Caldari BS skill, or any Caldari skills.
However, discounting Vulture just because it's not a BS isn't a fair call since this thread was about high end rail platforms, not 'BS only platforms'.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-07-15 06:40:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Barton Breau
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:


Please explain the logical process how you arrived at the conclusion that the vindi and navy mega do not represent rails, but drones are represented.

I just want to know.


Because neither of them use Caldari BS skill, or any Caldari skills.


There is no caldari in his post.

EDIT: And even if we would add it, the amarr dont have a navy missile nor drone BS, making the statement still warrant a explanation.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#46 - 2014-07-15 07:12:27 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:


Please explain the logical process how you arrived at the conclusion that the vindi and navy mega do not represent rails, but drones are represented.

I just want to know.


Because neither of them use Caldari BS skill, or any Caldari skills.


There is no caldari in his post.

EDIT: And even if we would add it, the amarr dont have a navy missile nor drone BS, making the statement still warrant a explanation.



Catch is caldari has a clear hybrid path. For years until cruise buff Rokh was THE fleet bs. Ranked with other racial BS...not even a good fleet one. But it wasn't raven. Eve for years had one simple rule in many places.for pvp...leave your pos raven at home and bring a rokh.

This still applies to many places today. Cruise buff did not make rokh go away as preferred in many pvp homes.


Why I like ole boys idea about gurista change. Guess what...it make you happy (or sad). As you could no longer say where is our drone BS at. That way we are all even. Amarr has no drone boat, neither does caldari.

Missile love...no idea why you want this. I started missiles, went turrets. And.....never looked back. Even liked turrets for pve as time wore on.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#47 - 2014-07-15 08:11:39 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Please explain the logical process how you arrived at the conclusion that the vindi and navy mega do not represent rails, but drones are represented.

I just want to know.


Because you had to say rail vindi.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2014-07-15 10:20:23 UTC
w3ak3stl1nk wrote:
Typhoon fleet issue is legacy and an anomaly as most ships don't use two weapon systems... as in most navy issue ship will be updated at some point to dumb it down.



It was the latest minmatar ship updated.. if there were to remove it they woudl have done it. Know what? They did not do it because lots of peopel whined when they did it to the typhoon.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2014-07-15 10:21:50 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
The Vulture is arguably one of the best high end fleet ships in the game right now.


Good luck finding a "fleet" of pilots that actually trained 15 ranks of Charisma skills up to V to be able to fly command ships.



Why? Too hard to train for null people ? How is that different from training for archon and naglfar?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#50 - 2014-07-16 00:04:09 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Saelem Black wrote:

Barton Breau wrote:

Well, if you want to change the navy scorpion into 7.5% hybrid and 7.5% missile damage per level and no other bonuses, keeping the 6 hardpoints, why not.

Also cry me a river bout 800dps with your own faction, i use sentries :)


Well, comparatively, the Rokh out ranges its rivals, but underdamages them. It kinda shoehorns it into some roles and makes it suck for others. It would be nice to have a lvl 4 hybrid platform that could make the 1k mark, like the other factions, or a pvp role beyond gatecamps and huge fleets.


I dont think the amarr have a 1k dps hybrid platform, apart from the point that you actually can do 1k dps with the rokh, with blasters, you still have 8 turrets.

If you are just looking at a abaddon with tachs, try to fit it properly.

As for artys, dunno, atm they have low dps, as projectile weapons go, and if you take the alpha, what will they get?



geddon navy issue. dont have bonus to drones but has 125 bandwidth and 7 turrets. 1k dps is easy
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2014-07-16 05:45:31 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:


geddon navy issue. dont have bonus to drones but has 125 bandwidth and 7 turrets. 1k dps is easy


Then follow your own logic, fit one railgun in the sni's free highslot, add 3 gardes and problem solved.
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2014-07-16 09:08:54 UTC
Grenn Putubi wrote:
The Rohk isn't 'top tier'?

To be fair, I've always thought of hybrid turrets being a backup weapon system for the Caldari similar to how the Minmatar treat missiles. Every race has 2 weapons and 1 they favor more than the other. For the Minmatar it's Projectiles and Missiles, Amarr have Lasers and Drones, Gallente have Hybrids and Drones, and Caldari have Missiles and Hybrids.

Do you want the Minmatar to get a new 'top tier' missile boat? Amarr to get a new Drone ship?


This
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#53 - 2014-07-16 09:24:09 UTC
Lets compared diffrent races shops, just doing T1 battleship with all using a full rack of its largest T2 guns + 3x T2 dmg mods and high dmg ammo (T1 / T2)

Abaddon: 696,98 / 813,15 (Using Mega Beam due to PG)
Apocalypse: 557,59 / 650,52 (Using Mega Beam due to PG)

Rokh: 529,30 / 617,52

Hyperion: 595,46 / 694,71
Megathron: 617,52 / 720,44

Maelstrom: 592,71 / 691,50
Tempest: 555,67 / 648,28

So we can see that EVERY race have 2 ships that out DPS the Rokh by a good margin. For sniping i would not be supprised if the other races can match a Rokh, but that requires a full fit on all the ships so give me a Rokh baseline and ill see if i can match its stats (ehp / optimal+falloff / target range / dps should be the most important)
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#54 - 2014-07-16 09:48:47 UTC
Cassius Invictus wrote:
Grenn Putubi wrote:
The Rohk isn't 'top tier'?

To be fair, I've always thought of hybrid turrets being a backup weapon system for the Caldari similar to how the Minmatar treat missiles. Every race has 2 weapons and 1 they favor more than the other. For the Minmatar it's Projectiles and Missiles, Amarr have Lasers and Drones, Gallente have Hybrids and Drones, and Caldari have Missiles and Hybrids.

Do you want the Minmatar to get a new 'top tier' missile boat? Amarr to get a new Drone ship?


This

Have you looked at what these races already have?

Typhoon Fleet Issue, stronger RoF bonus than Typhoon + dmg bonus = top tier missile ship that does more than any caldari ship (not counting dread/titan).

Amarr dont have a top tier (factio/t2 BS) drone ship, and their lineup should have one, or a missile ship.

If we inclue Pirate faction:
Amarr: Nestor / NM / Bhaalgorn. All use Lasers and apart from NM they use armor tank (only need the other race BS skill for full effect. Nestor also use a full flight of bonused sentry / heavy so there is the Amarr "top tier" drone ship.

Gallente: Barghest / Machariel / Nestor / RS / Vindicator. Here we have everything (missile, projectile, laser, drones, hybrid, shield tank, armor tank and 2 diffrent Ewar bonuses)

Minmatar: Machariel / Bhaalgorn / Vindicator. This is basicly just Vindi that keep to minmatar weapons, but they already have a faction missile ship so its already covered.

Caldari: Barghest / Nightmare / Rattlesnake. This inlcude a total of 0 hybrid platforms, and means that Caldari have access to a total of 1 hybrid ship for T1/T2/faction/pirate battleship.
(if the ship dont use a caldari ship skill, i dont count it as something caldari have access to, even if you can cross train to whatever you want)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2014-07-16 09:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:
Lets compared diffrent races shops, just doing T1 battleship with all using a full rack of its largest T2 guns + 3x T2 dmg mods and high dmg ammo (T1 / T2)

Abaddon: 696,98 / 813,15 (Using Mega Beam due to PG)
Apocalypse: 557,59 / 650,52 (Using Mega Beam due to PG)

Rokh: 529,30 / 617,52

Hyperion: 595,46 / 694,71
Megathron: 617,52 / 720,44

Maelstrom: 592,71 / 691,50
Tempest: 555,67 / 648,28

So we can see that EVERY race have 2 ships that out DPS the Rokh by a good margin. For sniping i would not be supprised if the other races can match a Rokh, but that requires a full fit on all the ships so give me a Rokh baseline and ill see if i can match its stats (ehp / optimal+falloff / target range / dps should be the most important)



Now compare the RANGE where all they can hit 100% of time and how much tank you can fit on the ship while fielding that. Rokh is an amazingly powerful sniper and only a fool cannot see it. It just is made to be used in a fleet with basilisks/scimitars and take advantage of the MUCH larger EHP it has compared to everythgin there bar the abaddon (that has a different drawback of being unable to fire for long periods)

And all this post is illogic , there never was any presumption that all types of wepaosn shoudl ahve a high end platform for them for each race that uses them.

You want to check wrogn things with races, forget WERAPONS and pay attention on the racial flavor that have been raped over the years makign the races more and more equal.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-07-16 10:52:37 UTC
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:

(if the ship dont use a caldari ship skill, i dont count it as something caldari have access to, even if you can cross train to whatever you want)


Convenient, isnt it?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#57 - 2014-07-16 11:05:17 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Joraa Starkmanir wrote:

(if the ship dont use a caldari ship skill, i dont count it as something caldari have access to, even if you can cross train to whatever you want)


Convenient, isnt it?

Yet you know, logical. Since if it doesn't use a Caldari skill then it's not a Caldari ship by any stretch of the imagination. And EVE does pride itself on Lore.
Simply saying LOL CROSSTRAIN N00B! When this is a thread about the lack of a Caldari Hybrid ship other than the Rokh is kinda missing the point by oh, a planets worth.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#58 - 2014-07-16 11:14:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Now compare the RANGE where all they can hit 100% of time and how much tank you can fit on the ship while fielding that. Rokh is an amazingly powerful sniper and only a fool cannot see it.



Problem is the game has several reasons not to snipe in it.

On grid warp one of them. To unlock its sniping ability you have to push that envelope of range till peeps are in your face in seconds flat. And fit depending the better ammo's like CNAM still have you playing falloff games (as int the rokh in other races falloffs) with the other races. Here we'd have to break out some mad numbers and graphs but....from my experience I will take higher tracking with a falloff damage bleed off sometimes over rokh's long optimal but to get that your tracking suffers due to lack of mods and no ship bonus for it to compensate. granted this is real situational and we could argue scenarios proving and disproving each other for a while tbh.


Also in many common engagements as someone so greatly put it earlier....the rokh comes off as a bad megathron.

Not even a rokh hater. I grew to love it when I flew it. But as I x-trained to other things...I found while not the grass was not as green as I'd thought it be....it still was a shade greener than rokh most of the time.

Well that and oddly enough the "end game" dps ship for caldari rails is the naga lol. Kind of a disparity there. Other races go to tier 3 to get decent bs level dps not in a brick of a ship. Caldari goes there for a bump up to first class hybrid performance. Here is kind of why we see rokh idea threads come from I think. If we happen to use rokhs...we look at naga and go man it be nice to have that on a bs. You know....like the other races do.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2014-07-16 12:20:21 UTC
I don't mind the BS situation as the fleet rokh is a thing - I just want eagles to not be inferior at everything compared to other HACs Sad

Fix that into a good rail platform and that fills a bunch of gaps for me. Trouble is, I don't know how to do it without making it a rail only boat.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2014-07-16 14:29:26 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Now compare the RANGE where all they can hit 100% of time and how much tank you can fit on the ship while fielding that. Rokh is an amazingly powerful sniper and only a fool cannot see it.



Problem is the game has several reasons not to snipe in it.

On grid warp one of them. To unlock its sniping ability you have to push that envelope of range till peeps are in your face in seconds flat. And fit depending the better ammo's like CNAM still have you playing falloff games (as int the rokh in other races falloffs) with the other races. Here we'd have to break out some mad numbers and graphs but....from my experience I will take higher tracking with a falloff damage bleed off sometimes over rokh's long optimal but to get that your tracking suffers due to lack of mods and no ship bonus for it to compensate. granted this is real situational and we could argue scenarios proving and disproving each other for a while tbh.


Also in many common engagements as someone so greatly put it earlier....the rokh comes off as a bad megathron.

Not even a rokh hater. I grew to love it when I flew it. But as I x-trained to other things...I found while not the grass was not as green as I'd thought it be....it still was a shade greener than rokh most of the time.

Well that and oddly enough the "end game" dps ship for caldari rails is the naga lol. Kind of a disparity there. Other races go to tier 3 to get decent bs level dps not in a brick of a ship. Caldari goes there for a bump up to first class hybrid performance. Here is kind of why we see rokh idea threads come from I think. If we happen to use rokhs...we look at naga and go man it be nice to have that on a bs. You know....like the other races do.



Sniping have problems, but they are NOT the oens you described. They are in grid probing, max lock range and warp inside grid. Those are not SHIP problems. Those are problem swith other game mechanics and arbitrary limits.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"