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Carrier and dread comparison?
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GenDeath
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-12-07 05:42:35 UTC
Alright this is discussion on theory and practicality.
You can have 3 carriers, any carrier. NOT a super carrier!!!
What 3 would you choose and why? Character skill is not in question, the isk of owning 3 carriers is not in question.

To make this more interesting lets add in dreads as well.

Answer like this please for clarity

1) Carriers

Carrier #1 Carrier Name: Reason

Carrier #2 Carrier Name: Reason

Carrier #3 Carrier Name: Reason

2) Dreads

Dread #1 Dread Name: Reason

Dread #2 Dread Name: Reason

Dread #3 Dread Name: Reason
GenDeath
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-12-07 05:44:45 UTC
1) Carriers

Carrier #1 Thanatos: DPS

Carrier #2 Archon: Triage, spider tanking, pvp

Carrier #3 Carrier Name: Reason ......idk.....thus the thread lol

2) Dreads

Dread #1 Revalation: Crystals and great dps

Dread #2 Phinox: Insane dps and can change damage types

Dread #3 Moros: great dps
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-12-07 05:58:33 UTC
There is a good reason to use all the carriers. There is a good reason to use all the dreads except the Phoenix.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#4 - 2011-12-07 05:59:47 UTC
I'll respond to dreads

1) naglfar - 4 weapons to three, capless, and most importantly - it's vertical. Also declared you do eve on hard mode.
2) Moros - 16k DPS. 'Nuff said.
3) revelation - b/c the Phoenix sucks.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-12-07 11:03:05 UTC
GenDeath wrote:
1) Carriers

Carrier #1 Thanatos: DPS

Carrier #2 Archon: Triage, spider tanking, pvp

Carrier #3 Carrier Name: Reason ......idk.....thus the thread lol

2) Dreads

Dread #1 Revalation: Crystals and great dps

Dread #2 Phinox: Insane dps and can change damage types

Dread #3 Moros: great dps


lolwut?

Carriers

1) Archon, awesome tank, awesome rep, awesome cap
2) Nidhoggur, epic reps
3) Thanatos, good DPS.

Dreads

1) Moros, INSANE DPS, shield or armour
2) Revelation, decent enough DPS, no need for extra ammo
3) Nag, awesome DPS, shield or armour tank, capless weapons system.

Looks like the OP has never seen a cap before

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
Mysteriax
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2011-12-07 11:20:39 UTC
Carriers

1) Archon, Best triage carrier, great tank and rep. Also triage support works much better for armor then shield since armor fleets are usually for suking it out for a long time while shield fleets are more mobile and best for hit and run.

2) Thanatos, Best DPS still descent tank and can work for armor fleets, just not as good as archon.

3) Nidhoggur, Best for repping Posses not to good in fleets, worst tank, bad cap. However if you need to rep a POS nidhoggurs are the way to go. Suicide Triage fits 4tw.

4) Chimera, better tank as the nid the problem with it is that its a shield ship and that doesnt fit in the carrier role.
Not to many capital shield fleets around.

Dreads

1) Moros 16k DPS, 5k more DPS then any other dread, It blows all the other dreads away.

2/3) Hard choice Nagl and Revelation are about equal. Rev doesnt need ammo but Nagl doesnt need cap to shoot so its always ready to jump out.

4) Phoenix, Good for POS shooting but not good for the rest. The missiles need a slight buff so they do full damage on moving capital ships then its up there with the nagl and rev.
Phyress
Isumi Industries
#7 - 2011-12-07 14:10:28 UTC
1) Archon - Triage to the max

2) Thanatos - pewpewpew. Can function as triage as well

3) Chimera - Shield triage, also the prettiest

---

1) Revelation - Nevar reload!

2) Moros - MAXIMUM FIREPOWER

3) Nagflablargh - Vertical

So, when can I expect to see my choices contracted to me?
Denuo Secus
#8 - 2011-12-07 14:47:00 UTC
I just don't get why the Phoenix is considered as that bad. I don't fly capitals so I don't have real experience here. So could someone explain the common Phoenix bashing a bit more detailed please?

First: if I'm not wrong, dreads in siege cannot be remote tracking boosted anymore. Right?

I tried to compare a Revelation to a Phoenix in EFT DPS graph:

- Dread vs POS: Phoenix wins.

- Dread vs non-moving sub capital: Phoenix wins.

- Dread vs moving sub capital: Phoenix seems better since it does at least some DPS, even if it's cruiser level. So it could - for instance - chase off annoying straying sub capitals, a Revelation cannot contribute anything here.

- Dread vs non-moving capital: Phoenix is better because of DPS + range + ability to change damage type

- Dread vs moving capital: Revelation does more DPS, but Phoenix offers range + damage type selection. Range seems pretty important since a dread needs to be sieged, and cannot move in range.

- Dread vs moving or non-moving super capital: Phoenix hits with full damage so it does more DPS with better range and selectable damage types.

I know Phoenix deals less damage when not using kinetic missiles...but at least it can change. It's not possible to tank against a Phoenix, against a Rev it is.

Also the Phoenix offers full gank + tank because of shield tank. Plus it's a capless weapon system.

So the only real case where the Phoenix seems not to work at all is as sniper dread.

Any hints? Phoenix seems quite usable imho. What did I wrong?
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-12-07 15:22:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
Denuo Secus wrote:
I just don't get why the Phoenix is considered as that bad. I don't fly capitals so I don't have real experience here. So could someone explain the common Phoenix bashing a bit more detailed please?

First: if I'm not wrong, dreads in siege cannot be remote tracking boosted anymore. Right?

I tried to compare a Revelation to a Phoenix in EFT DPS graph:

- Dread vs POS: Phoenix wins.

- Dread vs non-moving sub capital: Phoenix wins.

- Dread vs moving sub capital: Phoenix seems better since it does at least some DPS, even if it's cruiser level. So it could - for instance - chase off annoying straying sub capitals, a Revelation cannot contribute anything here.

- Dread vs non-moving capital: Phoenix is better because of DPS + range + ability to change damage type

- Dread vs moving capital: Revelation does more DPS, but Phoenix offers range + damage type selection. Range seems pretty important since a dread needs to be sieged, and cannot move in range.

- Dread vs moving or non-moving super capital: Phoenix hits with full damage so it does more DPS with better range and selectable damage types.

I know Phoenix deals less damage when not using kinetic missiles...but at least it can change. It's not possible to tank against a Phoenix, against a Rev it is.

Also the Phoenix offers full gank + tank because of shield tank. Plus it's a capless weapon system.

So the only real case where the Phoenix seems not to work at all is as sniper dread.

Any hints? Phoenix seems quite usable imho. What did I wrong?


Bolded a part that is patently wrong. You cannot make up for the signature issue (without a fuckton of paints). Phoenix is the only dread that will not hit a still subcap full for full damage (if dread and dramiel are at zero, moros / rev / autos on a nag will hit for full damage). In fights, any close range weapon system can at least tickle at 100km other than missiles. As far as long range goes, if the target is not a supercap, it will be dead by the time the missiles hit, meaning that it does less damage overall due to misses. Phoenix is also bad at shooting sleepers, so no isk machine there.

Dread
1. Moros (DEEPS)

2. Naglfar (Decent dps, good burst tank, moderate EHP, damage selection, weapons that do not use cap)

3. Revelation (easy range changes (instant reload), OK dps, um...)

Were I not in w-space and only using dreads to drop right on top of SCs, Phoenix would work its way up to second or third because of the EHP and DPS.

Carrier
1. Archon (If capital shield fleets were "In", then it would be Chimera)

2. Nidhoggur (They get primaried first because they are effective, much like the logistics that they emulate)

3. Thanatos (DPS is really meh in the whole scheme of things... with dreads, titans, and SCs, 250 dps is... well... pointless)

The chimera has one little issue. Its CPU sucks ass. You cannot fit that thing properly (see Archon equivalent) without going 10%-25% over on CPU
Denuo Secus
#10 - 2011-12-07 17:33:09 UTC
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Bolded a part that is patently wrong. You cannot make up for the signature issue (without a fuckton of paints). Phoenix is the only dread that will not hit a still subcap full for full damage (if dread and dramiel are at zero, moros / rev / autos on a nag will hit for full damage).....


Not sure if the DPS graph in EFT is correct here...but a faction torp Phoenix without TP help deals 2000 DPS against a non-moving Drake with MWD off. Against a non-moving armor Cane without MWD it still deals 976 DPS. This isn't comparable to the huge spike damage of a turret dread. But I'd say it's not that bad after all.

Nevertheless, I have to admit a BC with 0 m/s is rather theory. As soon as the Cane moves with 20% speed the damage dealt by the Phoenix drops to 317 DPS. So we're at cruiser level DPS. But even if the Cane moves close, these DPS are constant and will hurt the Cane. A turret dread deals zero DPS below 15km.

But then...a dread isn't a solo boat. With support it's doable to keep targets at range long enough. So I understand now why turret dreads have an advantage here. Thx for that insight Blink
Elindreal
Planetary Interactors
#11 - 2011-12-07 18:01:39 UTC
phoenix for custom office bash!!!!!!
Janitor Jones
Doomheim
#12 - 2011-12-07 19:25:19 UTC
vOv My main flies both the archon/rev and chim/phoenix. I keep thinking one day shield fleets will happen and i'll get to fly one of the latter. On the plus side, I can also entomb myself in the giant sansha turdship. StraightStraight
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2011-12-07 23:03:44 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
A turret dread deals zero DPS below 15km.

But then...a dread isn't a solo boat. With support it's doable to keep targets at range long enough. So I understand now why turret dreads have an advantage here. Thx for that insight Blink


Yep, but, given support, see what DPS you get on that BC with a dual TCed (scripted) moros at 15 with 2-3 paints on that cane and its mwd off. Not that that will ever happen outside of w-space, mind you, but still...
RC Denton
Shazaam Industries
#14 - 2011-12-07 23:11:04 UTC
Thanatos - for DPS and decent rep bonus's
Nid- because it looks cool and doesn't use oxygen isotopes
Chimera - uh...