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Out of Pod Experience

 
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You are not so normal after all - a look at what makes you strange
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Random McNally
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#41 - 2014-07-14 13:58:43 UTC
Right, but do chimps have that same issue?

IF all chimps became domesticated with no concern over fight/flight in the wild, would they lose their proportionally increased strength?

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Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-07-14 14:17:23 UTC
Random McNally wrote:
Right, but do chimps have that same issue?

IF all chimps became domesticated with no concern over fight/flight in the wild, would they lose their proportionally increased strength?

well, in regards to the trailer incident, you can blame adrenaline and noradrenaline for that. Mostly adrenaline and the fact that it basically removes the limiter from muscles and soothes out the pain created by extreme stress and lactic acid production. You normally can't raise that trailer without pulling a muscle, or without going beyond the "safe limit" of your body. Granted, short bursts of this hormone pair don't do much harm to your body, but you should've felt quite sore after the effects of them were gone, perhaps?

as for the chimps, it's not a matter of being domesticated, it's a matter of replacing the tools used in a fight or flight situation.

bashing a blunt instrument in an effective manner requires quite more power than wielding a sword, and even the sword requires more strength to wield than a firearm, so basically we got weaker because we stopped relying on our muscles too much, and start relying on tools more.

I'll go on a limb here, and I'll say that man 5000 years ago was stronger in average than man nowadays.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Random McNally
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#43 - 2014-07-14 14:28:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Random McNally
Grimpak wrote:
Random McNally wrote:
Right, but do chimps have that same issue?

IF all chimps became domesticated with no concern over fight/flight in the wild, would they lose their proportionally increased strength?

well, in regards to the trailer incident, you can blame adrenaline and noradrenaline for that. Mostly adrenaline and the fact that it basically removes the limiter from muscles and soothes out the pain created by extreme stress and lactic acid production. You normally can't raise that trailer without pulling a muscle, or without going beyond the "safe limit" of your body. Granted, short bursts of this hormone pair don't do much harm to your body, but you should've felt quite sore after the effects of them were gone, perhaps?

as for the chimps, it's not a matter of being domesticated, it's a matter of replacing the tools used in a fight or flight situation.

bashing a blunt instrument in an effective manner requires quite more power than wielding a sword, and even the sword requires more strength to wield than a firearm, so basically we got weaker because we stopped relying on our muscles too much, and start relying on tools more.

I'll go on a limb here, and I'll say that man 5000 years ago was stronger in average than man nowadays.

I agree and understand. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we, as humans, DO possess that kind of strength but need a little chemical help to get it. IF mankind required that kind of strength to be used daily, wouldn't evolution breed this into us?

Chimps still require this basic need for their strength so they have not lost it. Do chimps have adrenal glands that can supercharge even their strength?

And yes, I was sore afterwards. It was an experience that I will never forget.

Late edit: I may even argue that by moving TO tool use, that would be a sign of impending domestication. Blink

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Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2014-07-14 14:41:05 UTC
Random McNally wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Random McNally wrote:
Right, but do chimps have that same issue?

IF all chimps became domesticated with no concern over fight/flight in the wild, would they lose their proportionally increased strength?

well, in regards to the trailer incident, you can blame adrenaline and noradrenaline for that. Mostly adrenaline and the fact that it basically removes the limiter from muscles and soothes out the pain created by extreme stress and lactic acid production. You normally can't raise that trailer without pulling a muscle, or without going beyond the "safe limit" of your body. Granted, short bursts of this hormone pair don't do much harm to your body, but you should've felt quite sore after the effects of them were gone, perhaps?

as for the chimps, it's not a matter of being domesticated, it's a matter of replacing the tools used in a fight or flight situation.

bashing a blunt instrument in an effective manner requires quite more power than wielding a sword, and even the sword requires more strength to wield than a firearm, so basically we got weaker because we stopped relying on our muscles too much, and start relying on tools more.

I'll go on a limb here, and I'll say that man 5000 years ago was stronger in average than man nowadays.

I agree and understand. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we, as humans, DO possess that kind of strength but need a little chemical help to get it. IF mankind required that kind of strength to be used daily, wouldn't evolution breed this into us?

Chimps still require this basic need for their strength so they have not lost it. Do chimps have adrenal glands that can supercharge even their strength?

And yes, I was sore afterwards. It was an experience that I will never forget.

Late edit: I may even argue that by moving TO tool use, that would be a sign of impending domestication. Blink

well, unless you condition or body, no you don't, and yes, chimps have those glands too, afaik. their internal structure is quite similar to ours.

the chemical help is just a temporary limiter override. if, pound-per-pound, chimps are naturally stronger than us, that means that the same gap will exist when having the same conditions.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-07-14 18:27:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Chimps are still quite a bit stronger than humans. We may have a greater amount of strength locked away from us than they do, but they are probably able to get stronger in a pinch too. The real reason we are weaker is because our bone and ligament structure is not as durable and cannot withstand as much stress on a regular basis.

Random McNally, I'm willing to bet you were pretty sore after that snowmobile trailer incident, and likely even gained some odd pains and bone/ligament problems that day. If you we able to keep doing that, you might eventually rip your tendons free--especially if you were competing against other humans. You may feel pressured to push through the pain further than it really matters.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#46 - 2014-07-14 22:45:26 UTC
Yet again I am late to the thread. Very interesting discussion here!

I hazard limb length, in the ape families, also create some of the major differences between upper/lower limb strengths versus humans.

Modern human adults are distinct from most
other primates in having relatively very long and
strong lower limb bones compared to upper limb
bones (Schultz, 1953; Jungers, 1985).

Granted, the above study is looking at length development of the two species between birth and adulthood, but the researchers acknowledged that diameter of the bones is definitely part of the equation in the sense of strength and movement.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-07-15 10:15:19 UTC
Longer limbs require greater leverage to move, and thus should impart a lower amount of strength. There is something more going on here.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Random McNally
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#48 - 2014-07-15 11:04:50 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Chimps are still quite a bit stronger than humans. We may have a greater amount of strength locked away from us than they do, but they are probably able to get stronger in a pinch too. The real reason we are weaker is because our bone and ligament structure is not as durable and cannot withstand as much stress on a regular basis.

Random McNally, I'm willing to bet you were pretty sore after that snowmobile trailer incident, and likely even gained some odd pains and bone/ligament problems that day. If you we able to keep doing that, you might eventually rip your tendons free--especially if you were competing against other humans. You may feel pressured to push through the pain further than it really matters.

yea, I remember being sore that day and the next. I was young so I bounced back.

I just remember my dad doing some work under the trailer and a crash. He started yelling and without thinking, I grabbed the back of the trailer and lifted it up. I held it long enough for him to get out.

My mother ran him to the hospital and I went back out to the garage. I couldn't even budge the trailer.

Host of High Drag Podcast. http://highdrag.wordpress.com/

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Marcus Gord
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#49 - 2014-07-15 12:28:20 UTC
SUPER RANDOM! COME TO SAVE THE WORLD FROM COFFEE by consuming it all himself....

In a few moments you will have an experience that will seem completely real. It will be the result of your subconscious fears transformed to your conscious awareness.

http://i.imgur.com/LM2NKUf.png
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#50 - 2014-07-15 18:02:01 UTC
Another amazing human trait: The ability to accurately throw things over a distance. For example, throwing a basketball through a hoop, or a dart at a bullseye. There's a ballistic trajectory involved, so the thrower has to:
-Correctly judge the distance to the target;
-Launch the object at precisely the right angle; and
-Launch it with precisely the right amount of force.
Any error, and the trajectory will be off and the target will be missed.

And of course, the throw also has to be correctly aligned with the target along the vertical Y axis. That part gets more complicated when the target is moving. For example, a pass from a quarterback to a receiver in football (handegg).

We're so good at hitting targets that we can also do it with our feet (football (soccer)), or using slings, bows or sticks (hockey, golf). And also catapults, cannon, rifles and pistols. We like hitting targets so much that most our sports involve some kind of target-hitting.

Source: Desmond Morris, The Naked Ape and Manwatching.
Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#51 - 2014-07-15 18:13:00 UTC
I don't think I could hack it in Paleolithic lifestyles. I enjoy things like shampoo, conditioner and other basic hygienic needs too much. Not to mention other creature comforts...like my pillowtop mattress and climate control. lol
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
When Fleets Collide
#52 - 2014-07-15 18:32:31 UTC
Random McNally wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Chimps are still quite a bit stronger than humans. We may have a greater amount of strength locked away from us than they do, but they are probably able to get stronger in a pinch too. The real reason we are weaker is because our bone and ligament structure is not as durable and cannot withstand as much stress on a regular basis.

Random McNally, I'm willing to bet you were pretty sore after that snowmobile trailer incident, and likely even gained some odd pains and bone/ligament problems that day. If you we able to keep doing that, you might eventually rip your tendons free--especially if you were competing against other humans. You may feel pressured to push through the pain further than it really matters.

yea, I remember being sore that day and the next. I was young so I bounced back.

I just remember my dad doing some work under the trailer and a crash. He started yelling and without thinking, I grabbed the back of the trailer and lifted it up. I held it long enough for him to get out.

My mother ran him to the hospital and I went back out to the garage. I couldn't even budge the trailer.


Adrenaline is one hell of a drug...
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2014-07-15 19:16:23 UTC
what's the point of comparing myself to other people when I already know i'm better than everyone else

Help, I can't download EVE

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Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#54 - 2014-07-15 19:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Khergit Deserters wrote:
Another amazing human trait: The ability to accurately throw things over a distance. For example, throwing a basketball through a hoop, or a dart at a bullseye. There's a ballistic trajectory involved, so the thrower has to:
-Correctly judge the distance to the target;
-Launch the object at precisely the right angle; and
-Launch it with precisely the right amount of force.
Any error, and the trajectory will be off and the target will be missed.

And of course, the throw also has to be correctly aligned with the target along the vertical Y axis. That part gets more complicated when the target is moving. For example, a pass from a quarterback to a receiver in football (handegg).

We're so good at hitting targets that we can also do it with our feet (football (soccer)), or using slings, bows or sticks (hockey, golf). And also catapults, cannon, rifles and pistols. We like hitting targets so much that most our sports involve some kind of target-hitting.

Source: Desmond Morris, The Naked Ape and Manwatching.


Humans have arms that can be straightened out fully for throwing, so we throw with our arms straight in the final phase, Apes have to throw with arms bent. Humans were more dependent on throwing spears to survive. Apes are throwing sh!t.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-07-15 20:17:44 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Khergit Deserters wrote:
Another amazing human trait: The ability to accurately throw things over a distance. For example, throwing a basketball through a hoop, or a dart at a bullseye. There's a ballistic trajectory involved, so the thrower has to:
-Correctly judge the distance to the target;
-Launch the object at precisely the right angle; and
-Launch it with precisely the right amount of force.
Any error, and the trajectory will be off and the target will be missed.

And of course, the throw also has to be correctly aligned with the target along the vertical Y axis. That part gets more complicated when the target is moving. For example, a pass from a quarterback to a receiver in football (handegg).

We're so good at hitting targets that we can also do it with our feet (football (soccer)), or using slings, bows or sticks (hockey, golf). And also catapults, cannon, rifles and pistols. We like hitting targets so much that most our sports involve some kind of target-hitting.

Source: Desmond Morris, The Naked Ape and Manwatching.


Humans have arms that can be straightened out fully for throwing, so we throw with our arms straight in the final phase, Apes have to throw with arms bent. Humans were more dependent on throwing spears to survive. Apes are throwing sh!t.

the complex calculations required to do such a feat also explains the size of our brain.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-07-15 20:30:51 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Humans have arms that can be straightened out fully for throwing, so we throw with our arms straight in the final phase, Apes have to throw with arms bent. Humans were more dependent on throwing spears to survive. Apes are throwing shít.
Those always-bent elbows might have something to do with their strength actually. They can get greater leverage by having the tendons connect to the bone further away from the elbow. Our ability to straighten our arms might be giving up on strength to gain dexterity. Since we have such well-developed visual processing centers, it makes sense that feats of dexterity could serve us better than feats of strength.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#57 - 2014-07-15 21:06:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Actually Humans have developed certain grips, called precision grip and power grip, that are used in fighting with weapons and working with things. Longer thumb allows it. Talking about the size, that is what should count. Actually people with bigger brains are not more intelligent than people with smaller brains, it is more the structure and functions. the ability and capacity to learn.
http://www.livescience.com/32142-are-big-brains-smarter.html
http://www.livescience.com/163-big-brains.html

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Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
#58 - 2014-07-15 21:16:13 UTC
What I have found interesting from this brief analysis of our biological makeup in regards to limbs, glands and adaptive geometry in our body/ organs is that on top of all that, we have a brain that is geared to work with others, thus multiplying our strengths in groups forcing us to climb towards the apex in pure evolutionary terms.

The Need to Belong for example, as a psychological concept, practically defines what we do with ourselves as humans and will keep doing until the moment we transcend, out-evolve or plain reach a next stage of evolution where we will no longer be "humans" at all, at least in the traditional sense.


Behaviorally we are forced organically to act in groups, even change our understanding of our immediate reality by it and if you read many papers on this , you might come to the conclusion that many modern ailments and theories to explain them , derive from the simple fact we are slowly losing touch with this biological force ingrained in us, and by corollary why Social Media and other virtual social outlets are both evil and good (to use layman terms) for us in this day and age

Just some rambling thoughts brought upon me by this interesting thread.

Cheers!

o/

Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-07-16 00:58:22 UTC
Bigger brains mostly assist in greater information storage and a greater capacity for interpreting our surroundings and drawing connections. If you pick out a healthy chimpanzee and a healthy human, neither with any major defects and both with approximately the same IQ, you could note that the human is capable of learning a wider array of talents, tricks, mannerisms, cultural mores, navigational maps, speech patterns and languages, individual tool skills, prejudices, patterns, characters, and labels than the chimpanzee is. Chimpanzees can learn a very robust array of things, but not as much as a larger-brained human who has a lot more storage space.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#60 - 2014-07-16 07:34:11 UTC
But still, remembering a lot of things does not exactly equals to intelligence, functions of human brain have been developed to accomodate the life experiences of humans, logical structures of language, from it descended the knowledge that is build upon generations, expanded culture and ability to survive only when learned how to. Elephants and whales may be more knowing but they know things that are maps of food, locations and they are like big disc storage facilities, like the elephant that know where are growing the fruits, when humans learn what is necessary to find the fruits in a similar environment.

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