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[ISODE] Values & Institutions: A Call for Restoration
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Laurentis Thiesant
Institute of Social Development
#21 - 2014-07-15 12:38:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Laurentis Thiesant
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:
Karynn Denton wrote:
Jinari Otsito wrote:
I still don't get democracy. A significant chunk of dirtsiders, spacers and eggers are idiots and deficient in some way. Why would you ever entrust something as important as governance to these people? Let those who have earned it lead. If they're not good enough, time will show that rather sharpish.

Popular votes lead to people like Heth grabbing the reins because they were flashy and got the masses of morons blubbering for them. Using that as a system of governance is quite demonstrably insane.


And as far as I know, the average Federal citizen or politician doesn't have access to elders, Khargai or Shamen to impart the councel and wisdom of their ancestor spirits... how can you have effective decision making without them?

I agree, Pilot Otsito; it is an insane system.


Gallentean democracy is the idea that the impulse or uninformed opinion of the drug-swallowing individual is every bit as "right" and should have as much impact on policy as the informed, educated decisions of shamen, chiefs, and elders, arrived at via experience and evidence.

Silly nonsense, it is. Glad we've gotten past that.


This 'silly nonsense' is the one that democratically elected the fantastic and much missed Karin Midular, yes? Alongside many other respectable republican democrats. She may not have been a Shakorite 'Sanmatar', but she was one damn fine leader in my books.

Actually trusting your citizens and believing in their better character is worth something sometimes, you know.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2014-07-15 14:24:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Laurentis Thiesant wrote:

This 'silly nonsense' is the one that democratically elected the fantastic and much missed Karin Midular, yes? Alongside many other respectable republican democrats. She may not have been a Shakorite 'Sanmatar', but she was one damn fine leader in my books.
Actually trusting your citizens and believing in their better character is worth something sometimes, you know.

It is considered very unkind to use the names of the dead to gain traction in an argument. In my past dealings with you, you have been reasonable so I am going to assume you are being reasonable now and any offense is unintentional despite the tone of your writing and the grave mistake in whom you are addressing, a Clan Chief of the Sebiestor Tribe .

I will do my best to explain:

Karin Midular was only partially democratically elected in reality. Explaining the circumstances that brought her into power would only confuse the issue further at this point but suffice to say it was a convoluted combination of tribal tradition, circumstance and populist vote, not among the people but amongst the people's elected parliament (lol). You could make the argument she was only in her position because she was The Ray of Matar and be right from a perspective, you could also say she was the Ray because she was born to be in that position. This would be more right.

The Ray of Matar was beloved for who she was as a person. It may seem strange to you but the vast majority of Matari, who hated the first Republic, Karin Midular's policies and her government, can also love and respect a good person in a difficult position. Despite the fact it was often protested against sometimes violently and the staggering majority of Matari consider the first Republic a complete failure, they still have respect for those who tried to make it work. The way in which it was removed, through the purge, should demonstrate how much it was hated. The way we mourned, by nearly going to war, should demonstrate how much we loved her.

Your use of the word 'shakorite' here betrays your ignorance on the subject. There is no political party in the Republic that that name themselves anything remotely close to that, it is a term of rhetoric. The term is derogatory in origin used by political enemies of the Sanmatar when he was also the prime minister, describing those who followed him. Generally as an ad hominem or when it was thought those supporters would use militant means to keep him in power (they never did.) Shakorite, in reality, only applies to a small number of people in government or political positions. Now that the Sanmatar has returned the Republic to a Tribal government, is nothing but an obsolete insult. As the Sanmatar is in fact himself, the use of calling him a supporter of himself should be apparent.

In all honesty your argument would have been much much better to have used the Sanmatar, as he was far closer to being democratically elected by all Tribesman, though as it is often said he ran unopposed it again, betrays a lack of understanding of both history and how the Republic functions. There are no 'elections' for Sanmatar, a Sanmatar is chosen by the Tribal Assembly, the Chiefs of all the Tribes. That is not quite a accurate picture however as Sanmatar is an old old word meaning 'True Matar' given only to those who have earned it. In a sense it is a position of merit; one person is chosen to represent most truly the will of the unified Tribes. I have no metaphor to describe to an outsider how this is but perhaps it will make it more clear if you know that the vast majority of Sanmatar did not want to be.

But the Tribes spoke and Maleatu Shakor was chosen. The following 'election' to the head of the parliament of the first Republic was little more than a formality to coast with the current government. A necessity as although, the first Republic was despised, ineffectual, and corrupt, it was still the only government we had. Record low numbers of voters in the highly vocal Republic, the lack of any opposition in a nation where anyone can achieve power from any place. (perhaps someday read the story of Chief Setul, he was just a farmer until his people chose him as chief) Marry this with the fact that the people known for giving their lives for their right to live how they choose never once opposed his official election as Prime Minister should be enough evidence that the Sanmatar's appointment to Prime Minister was as I said, a formality.

Either option you choose is wrong however in this case as Karin Midular would never have been in the position for the first parliament to elect as prime minister had she not arrived there by decidedly un-democratic ways and the Sanmatar was the one elected to prime minister most democratically but it was only as an afterthought to being chosen as Sanmatar. In fact using the word democracy in describing a person of influence in the Republic is considered an insult, implying they do not deserve the position but were instead chosen by the popular opinion of who knows what kind of people.

Suffice to say our government, while sharing some concepts of democracy also shares many concepts of meritocracy and in fact, is very very different from either. We tried the Gallentean way, we did not like it, we live as we do now under the government we as a people chose un-democratically.

For a long time there has been a failure of minds accustomed to Gallentean politics in understanding the highly libertarian and traditional Tribal government and that certainly seems to be the case here.

My personal advice is they should not attempt to lest they be made to look foolish. Who knows the consequences of evoking the name of the Ray of Matar after she has left this world to win an argument for a government system unwanted by Matari to the Chief of a Clan famous for its traditionalism and ruthlessness in defending it.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2014-07-15 14:41:29 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

It's not as nuts as it sounds, although I know it sounds fairly nuts.

A large part of what kept Heth in power was his populist appeal to the prole sector of Caldari politics. The prole sector is an interesting political bloc, in that it tends to wield power out of proportion to the proper amount of shares it controls, due to it's ability to down tools when united and bring the State grinding to a halt.

Now, usually, keeping the prole sector unified and motivated is a nigh-impossible task. The common people tend to have very diverse interests and triggers. Most of those with votes are mostly interested in making sure that their voting stock keeps its value when they retire, so that their retirement is secure.

Heth lost control of a large chunk of that bloc when his actions devalued stock in Kaalakiota, Caldari Construction, Caldari Steel and other Corporations he was a majority stakeholder in - thereby jeopardising the retirement of his prole sector supporters.


Thank you, it is much more clear now.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2014-07-15 17:52:15 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

It's not as nuts as it sounds, although I know it sounds fairly nuts.

A large part of what kept Heth in power was his populist appeal to the prole sector of Caldari politics. The prole sector is an interesting political bloc, in that it tends to wield power out of proportion to the proper amount of shares it controls, due to it's ability to down tools when united and bring the State grinding to a halt.

Now, usually, keeping the prole sector unified and motivated is a nigh-impossible task. The common people tend to have very diverse interests and triggers. Most of those with votes are mostly interested in making sure that their voting stock keeps its value when they retire, so that their retirement is secure.

Heth lost control of a large chunk of that bloc when his actions devalued stock in Kaalakiota, Caldari Construction, Caldari Steel and other Corporations he was a majority stakeholder in - thereby jeopardising the retirement of his prole sector supporters.


Thank you, it is much more clear now.


I consider it equal exchange for your fascinating summary of the Matari system, Aya.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-07-15 18:14:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Bryen Verrisai
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:
Silly nonsense, it is. Glad we've gotten past that.

Indeed. Now if you could just get a grip on the poverty, the refugees, the lack of education, the crime, the corruption, and the unfortunate inability to decide whether you want to shoot your allies or your enemies first, your nation should be just dandy!
Karynn Denton
Lekhantsi Salvage Depot
#26 - 2014-07-15 18:32:01 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:
Silly nonsense, it is. Glad we've gotten past that.

Indeed. Now if you could just get a grip on the poverty, the refugees, the lack of education, the crime, the corruption, and the unfortunate inability to decide whether you want to shoot your allies or your enemies first, your nation should be just dandy!


Another thing I dislike about democracy is the sneering self-righteousness it instils in its supporters.

Karynn Denton

Caravan Master
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#27 - 2014-07-15 18:36:59 UTC
Karynn Denton wrote:
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Kyllsa Siikanen wrote:
Silly nonsense, it is. Glad we've gotten past that.

Indeed. Now if you could just get a grip on the poverty, the refugees, the lack of education, the crime, the corruption, and the unfortunate inability to decide whether you want to shoot your allies or your enemies first, your nation should be just dandy!


Another thing I dislike about democracy is the sneering self-righteousness it instils in its supporters.


You. I like you.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-07-15 18:38:05 UTC
And here I thought we were having a pleasant, open dialogue about the unfortunate faults of our two nations.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2014-07-15 21:39:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Bryen Verrisai wrote:



Our government is barely six months old.

Our economy is growing faster than any before it. In one hundred and thirty six years we have gone from literally nothing and no systems to the strength we have today, Naglfars and Ragnaroks, hundreds of inhabited worlds, stargates between them, new ships just as capable as anything the other empires have, and research and development that can rival the other Empires. While we are still the smallest, we will not always be. The Republic has, interestingly a greater proliferation of high-tech modern conveniences than even the Federation due to the fact we are starting from scratch.

Business conglomerates have little traction, a stark contrast to the State. Because of the strict traditions of nature preserving and personal rights, there is little spaces you can even advertise legally. Partially a result of the Matari effort to establish itself against Gallente culture.

They say most Matari's homes are owned by their neighbor, a reference to the fact the vast majority of land and business in the Republic is owned locally. In the 'poverty areas' such as that of clan late-rise, it is far more often the case of living off the land in a traditional means than rows after row of slums. Where we got the huge amount of people to allegedly cover all our worlds in slums, I will never know. Amarrian propaganda engines I am sure.

Income disparity is quite low in the Republic, and our social mobility is far higher than any of the others due partially to the fact we started from nothing, the lack of any social or caste system preventing the acquisition of wealth by anyone and maybe a bit by the social stigma against leaving money for your heirs here. Any of this could be readily apparent to anyone seeing the large number of young newly wealthy Matari who you cannot seem to turn the holo on without seeing romanticized.

It is no wonder that even given our gross national product and the vast handicap of being a people returning from slavery the average income is so high even with the fact we have only had a couple generations to establish an economy at all.

No returnee has ever gone a single day without paid for care and it is outright insulting to insinuate that any Matari is not given every chance to succeed. The vast majority of us, as you may remember, are returnees. I could outline the exact and very heavily regulated process in which returnees are given counseling, education, jobs, are cared for, looked after, and sponsored but given the inflammatory nature of your initial statement I am going to assume I would be wasting my time.

As to a lack of education, I have no idea where this concept came from as every Matari is educated either in the Empire or at the schools of the Republic. With the huge demand for Matari educated laborers on starships I would think a capsuleer would understand. Now if you were to suggest there is too militaristic a slant or our schools are too brutal or even if you were to claim indoctrination is a problem in republic schools, you might get more than an offhand dismissal. God, it seems as thought you just bring up the 40% final 40% practical, 10% quizzes 10% homework model and you get debate in the Republic. Maybe for another time. Perhaps you are not also aware that there is a crisis of sorts in the empire, so many specialists (Matari) having left their borders either through being freed or emancipation. Anyway, I presume this bullet point is as born of ignorance and vitriol as the others. Moving on.

Crime has been falling at an incredible rate in the Republic, over twenty four percent in YC113 alone and dropping all the while. If anything there is a greater crime problem in the Federation given the statistics on repeat offenders but that is for experts to debate. Either way, show me any indication that the Matari have any problem dealing with crime and I will show you the loaded rifle or not-so ceremonial knife that undoubtedly many of the criminals get to see. Tribal law and Tribal justice is remarkably effective. This does give us a much higher homicide rate than the State, and Federation as lethal solutions are not taboo here nor is there any social stigma against it. Again, a curiosity for a different discussion, perhaps its own thread.

As to your allegations of corruption I would encourage you to read up on the purge. Perhaps then you will laugh like me, or at least understand better what I highlighted in the point before.

As you are no doubt referring to Colelie in some vindictive means of using the unnecessary deaths of many of both your and my people, to lash out at a perceived insult perhaps it is best to at least say some words on it loathe as I am to.

It is essential to understanding Colelie to understand the Tribal mindset: Karin Midular as the Ray of Matar was more than just a politician or a head of state, she was more relied on than a CEO by her people and more cherished than a religious leader. She was Chief of her Tribe. She was The Ray Of Matar. I again, am at a loss of metaphor. Perhaps imagine it was a very close family member and confidant as well as the idol of every Matari that had been killed.

Add in many, many Matari beliefs on respecting the dead, the then lack of a central formed government, and the tensions between our peoples at the time and you can see how such a tragedy happened.

Among the Matari silence is the answer to tragedy you would be hard pressed to find a Free Matari who does not bear some guilt or sense of loss for Colelie.

As you may remember, it was not just Gallente lives lost that day.

Thankfully, our two peoples have been able to see past it, out of their sacrifice our peoples have proven that we will remain allies in the new empyrean age.

May the spirits of all that lost their lives that day rest easy.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Laurentis Thiesant
Institute of Social Development
#30 - 2014-07-15 21:55:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Laurentis Thiesant
Ayallah wrote:
Laurentis Thiesant wrote:

This 'silly nonsense' is the one that democratically elected the fantastic and much missed Karin Midular, yes? Alongside many other respectable republican democrats. She may not have been a Shakorite 'Sanmatar', but she was one damn fine leader in my books.
Actually trusting your citizens and believing in their better character is worth something sometimes, you know.


It is considered very unkind to use the names of the dead to gain traction in an argument. In my past dealings with you, you have been reasonable so I am going to assume you are being reasonable now and any offense is unintentional despite the tone of your writing and the grave mistake in whom you are addressing, a Clan Chief of the Sebiestor Tribe .

I will do my best to explain:


That was a damn fine treatise for someone who, as far as I'm aware, isn't one of the few who leads this 'dictatorship of the few who are apparently simultaneously the masses' that has come in to power. I appreciate the depth, and it is funnily enough much more respectful to debate and relatively relevant to the subject then the barbs that we got from a Clan Chief of the Sebiestor Tribe. Respect goes two ways. Apparently we're allowed to call the system that has built the most tolerant, most diverse, most economically strong nation 'nonsense' fueled by drug addicts but accept wholeheartedly that a chosen few can determine the lives of millions (after a few months of operation under unusual circumstances). I've never accepted that in the Empire, and I'm sorry to say I still have my concerns about it in the Matari nation as well. Oligarchy is just not for me I'm afraid - and if others find that democracy is not for them, and are able to wield that fact like a spike in this thread, then I should be able to defend it comparatively.

I came here to talk about how we can work as a Federation towards making sure that our success story can continue, that our Union's institutions which have carried it with stability can continue to be the guiding light of the intentions and goals of the Gallente. So perhaps we've gotten far from that - but in a way, we're on topic. At the end of the day, the Federation's electorate, whoever they may be, have made the right choice a large majority of the time - they've done so with respect for the system and with a keen sense of interest in the integrity of our Federated Union. I don't care who they are or where they come from, but agency and individual sovereignty means to me that they must be part of the process under normal operating procedures so that we may truly be a multicultural, multiracial community.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#31 - 2014-07-15 22:10:38 UTC
Laurence, you have to understand that it's a system that just doesn't make sense to the majority of people in New Eden. Quite often the Federation seems to make progress DESPITE it's political system of choice. Often progress is made and then thrown away in the next breath.

Thankfully things do seem to be moving in the right direction, vis a vis our two nations, now - but there is always the fear in the back of any sensible Caldari mind that it could all be thrown away in a feverish night of politicking.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Laurentis Thiesant
Institute of Social Development
#32 - 2014-07-15 22:30:05 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Laurence, you have to understand that it's a system that just doesn't make sense to the majority of people in New Eden. Quite often the Federation seems to make progress DESPITE it's political system of choice. Often progress is made and then thrown away in the next breath.

Thankfully things do seem to be moving in the right direction, vis a vis our two nations, now - but there is always the fear in the back of any sensible Caldari mind that it could all be thrown away in a feverish night of politicking.


That fear is just as present these days when it comes to the Caldari body politic. The occasional outburst of extremism does not mind which government structure you favor. One ritual killing and the entire Amarr Empire could attempt to reclaim us all, Minmatar, Federate, and Caldari alike.

We had the U-Nats, who are now an almost irrelevancy - more recently you had the CPD who are slowly fading. Both were trouble that we, the 'good folk', should attempt not to emulate or bring back.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2014-07-15 22:32:45 UTC
Laurentis Thiesant wrote:
That was a damn fine treatise for someone who, as far as I'm aware, isn't one of the few who leads this 'dictatorship of the few who are apparently simultaneously the masses' that has come in to power. I appreciate the depth, and it is funnily enough much more respectful to debate and relatively relevant to the subject then the barbs that we got from a Clan Chief of the Sebiestor Tribe. Respect goes two ways. Apparently we're allowed to call the system that has built the most tolerant, most diverse, most economically strong nation 'nonsense' fueled by drug addicts but accept wholeheartedly that a chosen few can determine the lives of millions (after a few months of operation under unusual circumstances). I've never accepted that in the Empire, and I'm sorry to say I still have my concerns about it in the Matari nation as well. Oligarchy is just not for me I'm afraid - and if others find that democracy is not for them, and are able to wield that fact like a spike in this thread, then I should be able to defend it comparatively.

I came here to talk about how we can work as a Federation towards making sure that our success story can continue, that our Union's institutions which have carried it with stability can continue to be the guiding light of the intentions and goals of the Gallente. So perhaps we've gotten far from that - but in a way, we're on topic. At the end of the day, the Federation's electorate, whoever they may be, have made the right choice a large majority of the time - they've done so with respect for the system and with a keen sense of interest in the integrity of our Federated Union. I don't care who they are or where they come from, but agency and individual sovereignty means to me that they must be part of the process under normal operating procedures so that we may truly be a multicultural, multiracial community.


Laurentis, attacking a group of people for the actions of a one is never productive. As for your colorful interpretation, it is wrong. Perhaps you would be better served by doing your own research into the nature of Tribes as I am both tiring of explaining and obviously failing at.

If you want me to apologize for the actions of another, I will not.

As to your OP topic I already gave my opinion, that untangling Placid and Black Rise enough to determine who can vote will prove either an insurmountable task or a sham job. Things are just too mercurial for any other options.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-07-15 22:40:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayallah
Laurentis Thiesant wrote:
One ritual killing and the entire Amarr Empire could attempt to reclaim us all, Minmatar, Federate, and Caldari alike.


Agreed. My greatest hope is the new president take a much more hardline stance against the Empire, a greater peaceful mindset against the Caldari, more harshness against pirate groups and an increased relationship with the Republic.

The Amarrians are the true enemies and anyone willing to assist me against the likes of Nauplius, even other Amarrians ...especially even,

are welcome to mail me or open conversation any assistance or information is appreciated no matter how small.

Ships, are especially useful if you can afford it without concern. T1 only please, to keep cost down for us all.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Kyllsa Siikanen
Tuonelan Virta
#35 - 2014-07-16 00:15:43 UTC
Karin Midular was elected leader of the republic. She did her job with dignity and grace, but in the end, corruption destroyed her Government.... democratically elected government.

She was chief of my Tribe by dint of her Mark, a job she did far more brilliantly... until the security forces of a democratic nation allowed her to be murdered by a nutcase.

Democracy. So good yo.


“Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.” 

― C.S. Lewis 
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-07-16 01:01:09 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Our economy is growing faster than any before it.

Your economy is attached at the waist to the wealthiest nation in the entire cluster. Kudos on taking advantage of that opportunity, but give some credit where it's due: the Federation creates a wealth of jobs for non-citizen Matari workers, is the main purchaser of Matari goods and products, and gives more aid to your nation than any other entity in the cluster.

To say that the Federation is solely responsible for the Republic's success would be foolish and disingenuous; to say it did not and does not continue to play a critical role in the economy of the Republic would be equally so. Yes, your people have ruggedly set out to make a future for themselves against great odds, but they did not do so alone.

Amusing exaggerations aside in regards to the slums, reports on extreme poverty in urban areas do not paint a pretty picture when compared to similar reports on the other empires. To try and paint the poor of your nation as happy and homely rural folk doing just fine for themselves on the fringes of society is not only statistically incorrect, but a serious injustice to the lower strata of Matari society in serious need of help.

Lack of educational achievement goes back to poverty. Returnees are treated very well in the Republic and provided with many great resources for building lives for themselves. The Republic's performance in that regard in nothing short of admirable. But those people in your society born into poverty do not get the same treatment. They do not have the same access to education or the same tools necessary for social advancement.

Republic crime statistics are again admirable, but your work isn't done yet. Ignoring the violent crime statistics that are significantly higher in the Republic than elsewhere (for reasons you yourself stated) it is estimated by various law enforcement agencies and crime research centers that more than ninety percent of all illicitly trafficked goods move through Republic space. In more recent times, the Republic has become a more popular safe haven for white collar criminals seeking to launder or hide illicit funds in shell corporations that the Republic government is either incapable or unwilling to devote the resources to cracking down on. Whether or not this is merely a symptom of the chaos of your government's recent rearranging or a longterm, systemic problem remains to be seen.

Ayallah wrote:
As you are no doubt referring to Colelie in some vindictive means of using the unnecessary deaths of many of both your and my people, to lash out at a perceived insult perhaps it is best to at least say some words on it loathe as I am to.

"Perceived" implies misinterpretation. I'm fairly certain I grasped the true intention of Ms. Siikanen's comment, thank you.


Ayallah wrote:
Blah blah blah Colelie rationalizations blah blah blah

A traitorous, murdering, kinslayer with a case of The Bad Feels is still a traitorous, murdering, kinslayer.


Ayallah wrote:
Among the Matari silence is the answer to tragedy you would be hard pressed to find a Free Matari who does not bear some guilt or sense of loss for Colelie.

To the contrary, you can barely throw a rock without hitting one.

Ayallah wrote:
As you may remember, it was not just Gallente lives lost that day.

Oh, I remember. Nothing warms you up on a cold night more than calling to mind the fact that hundreds of thousands of people who murdered their allies, allies that would have died fighting beside those very same people if called upon to do so, no longer exist except in the form of radioactive vapor.

But you're right, the focus should be on healing, and many in the Federation agree. Like some of my old Navy buddies who sent around a petition to get President Roden to reach out to Maleatu Shakor and invite the man over for an evening of bonding and festivity with him as the guest of honor.

As I recall, the specific event suggested by the petition was a barbecue.

I also take umbrage with your accusations against the Amarrians. In the entirety of the Federation-Empire relations, they have proven nothing but trustworthy and honorable in their dealings. Do they have some cultural issues that need working out? Sure. Is their alliance with the Caldari a friendship barrier? Kinda.

But in a world full of volatile foes and treacherous friends, it's nice to have an enemy you can trust.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#37 - 2014-07-16 01:06:22 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
I also take umbrage with your accusations against the Amarrians. In the entirety of the Federation-Empire relations, they have proven nothing but trustworthy and honorable in their dealings. Do they have some cultural issues that need working out? Sure. Is their alliance with the Caldari a friendship barrier? Kinda.

But in a world full of volatile foes and treacherous friends, it's nice to have an enemy you can trust.


It's totally hilarious but we say much the same thing about the Matari. Nice bunch of people, admirable in many ways, if only they weren't friends with the Home-stealing warmongers in green.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-07-16 01:15:08 UTC
Hey now, to be fair, we've been working on that warmonger stuff. I mean, look at Colelie: eerily similar numerical loss of life to NR, but did we bomb the Matari homeworld until their ancestors got shellshock? No. Yay improvement!
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#39 - 2014-07-16 01:20:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Hey now, to be fair, we've been working on that warmonger stuff. I mean, look at Colelie: eerily similar numerical loss of life to NR, but did we bomb the Matari homeworld until their ancestors got shellshock? No. Yay improvement!


Damn. I laughed at that, there goes my stone faced rep.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Kyllsa Siikanen
Tuonelan Virta
#40 - 2014-07-16 01:22:42 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Who knows the consequences of evoking the name of the Ray of Matar after she has left this world to win an argument for a government system unwanted by Matari to the Chief of a Clan famous for its traditionalism and ruthlessness in defending it.


Thank you, Ayallah.

“Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.” 

― C.S. Lewis