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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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stoicfaux
#3221 - 2014-07-11 13:55:22 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Speaking of the Rattlesnake, I do not recommending using Heavies against NPC frigates. Something(tm) happened when CCP tweaked their tracking.

For example: warriors, ~12 seconds to kill an Angel Webifier
[ 02:56:15 ] (combat) 48 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Hits
[ 02:56:15 ] (combat) Your Warrior II misses Angel Webifier completely - Warrior II
[ 02:56:15 ] (combat) 59 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Penetrates
[ 02:56:15 ] (combat) 52 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Hits
[ 02:56:16 ] (combat) 71 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Smashes
[ 02:56:19 ] (combat) 58 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Penetrates
[ 02:56:19 ] (combat) 45 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Hits
[ 02:56:19 ] (combat) Your Warrior II misses Angel Webifier completely - Warrior II
[ 02:56:19 ] (combat) 59 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Penetrates
[ 02:56:20 ] (combat) 40 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Glances Off
[ 02:56:23 ] (combat) 43 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Hits
[ 02:56:23 ] (combat) 83 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Penetrates
[ 02:56:23 ] (combat) 64 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Glances Off
[ 02:56:23 ] (combat) 97 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Penetrates
[ 02:56:24 ] (combat) 102 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Penetrates
[ 02:56:27 ] (combat) 125 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Penetrates
[ 02:56:27 ] (combat) 125 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Penetrates
[ 02:56:27 ] (combat) 91 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Hits
[ 02:56:27 ] (combat) 13 to Angel Webifier - Warrior II - Smashes

Versus Berserkers at 12s:
[ 02:57:36 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 02:57:36 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 02:57:40 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 02:57:40 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 02:57:44 ] (combat) 398 to Angel Webifier - Berserker II - Glances Off
[ 02:57:44 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 02:57:48 ] (combat) 651 to Angel Webifier - Berserker II - Grazes
[ 02:57:48 ] (combat) 123 to Angel Webifier - Berserker II - Grazes
... up to 25s
[ 02:57:56 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 02:58:00 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 02:58:04 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 02:58:05 ] (combat) 618 to Angel Webifier - Berserker II - Hits
[ 02:58:08 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 02:58:08 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 02:58:12 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 02:58:13 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 02:58:16 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 02:58:17 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 02:58:20 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 02:58:21 ] (combat) 489 to Angel Webifier - Berserker II - Hits

But when they do hit, they hit pretty hard. (31s)
[ 03:09:43 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:09:46 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:09:47 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:09:50 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:09:52 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:09:54 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:09:56 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:09:58 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:10:00 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:10:02 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:10:04 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:10:06 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:10:08 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:10:10 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:10:12 ] (combat) 444 to Angel Webifier - Berserker II - Glances Off
[ 03:10:14 ] (combat) 646 to Angel Webifier - Berserker II - Glances Off

But there are really good moments: (8s)
[ 03:06:54 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:06:56 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:06:57 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:07:00 ] (combat) Your Berserker II misses Angel Webifier completely - Berserker II
[ 03:07:02 ] (combat) 1090 to Angel Webifier - Berserker II - Smashes

I'm seeing this with Praetors as well.

tl;dr Heavies seem to take a while to decelerate enough to actually hit NPC frigates. Plus given the tendency of heavies to fly off after bigger targets, I (sans further testing) recommend using lights on a Rattlesnake to kill NPC frigates.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3222 - 2014-07-11 14:44:40 UTC
I'd rather use sentries and if they're under the guns I'll blow em up a bit more slowly with RHML and tell my sentries to attack a different frigate that's further away. No other frigate? They can shoot a cruiser. RMHL and a painter would go faster than light drones, right? No need to compromise THAT heavily on DPS by launching lights.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3223 - 2014-07-11 15:38:37 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
tl;dr Heavies seem to take a while to decelerate enough to actually hit NPC frigates.


In my experience with heavy drones in pve, they'll generally miss frigates until their orbit gets them behind the frigate when it's moving away, at which point the orbit makes them chase it reducing transversal.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3224 - 2014-07-11 19:12:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaari Inkuran
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

You're completely wrong. The Bhaalgorn got arguably nerfed, the Nightmare got a largely useless bonus, the Machariel and the Vindicator were basically not changed, and the Rattlesnake got incredibly buffed.

The missile bonus applies to any and all sizes of missiles, so if you are really so worried about frigate and cruiser NPCs, just use Rapid Heavy Missile launchers and watch them melt.

After trying out the nightmare heavily I must admit I'm rather disappointed as well. The AB bonus is rather interesting but not actually incredibly useful and the nightmare's previous weaknesses are now incredibly glaring due to the recent buffs to the rest of the excellent pirate ships. Also: power creep.

Basically the AB can't be run for that long due to cap issues and while using it DOES mitigate a decent amount of damage, it doesnt change the fact that this ship can't run for very long because it eats gigantic cap charges like they were friggin candy, and it isn't like it has a very big cargo hold. My paladin both uses fewer charges, and carries twice as much while still having a TON of extra cargo room. Trying to get nightmare to the point where it can even run its 4 tachs without capping out, actually requires 2 slots dedicated to cap regen. Also its base speed is still pretty low, considering its lack of tank ability and lack of easy access to a T2 damage rig. You pretty much can't get away with a T2 aerator or collision accel rig.

Finally, using the AB actually decreases the quality of your hits since, even though the nightmare has a tracking bonus, going at 800 m/s still causes significant tracking issues. You know, because lasers. So I find that I really only benefit from the AB when I'm trying to get into decent range of my targets.

But all I really want from the thing is a bigger capacitor. I can just get over everything else, even if it would STILL be the most underwhelming pirate BS after a capacitor buff.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3225 - 2014-07-11 22:14:45 UTC
Stoic is correct, some part of the changes to drone speed screwed up their tracking. They track considerably worse on TQ than they did on SiSi before Kronos.

IMO the Gecko solves this fairly well. It's tracking and ability to blap frigates is rather improved from the T2 heavy drones.

I have also solved this fairly well by using a Micro Jump Drive, just jump away from the frigates, and blap them with sentries as they approach with zero transversal. Which was of course well within the ship's abilities before, it just has better cruise dps to do it with.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#3226 - 2014-07-14 13:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
stoicfaux wrote:
Speaking of the Rattlesnake, I do not recommending using Heavies against NPC frigates. Something(tm) happened when CCP tweaked their tracking.

For example: warriors, ~12 seconds to kill an Angel Webifier


13:51:24 Combat 1300 to Devilfish Alvi - Gecko - Penetrates
13:51:19 Combat 850 to Strain Splinter Alvi - Gecko - Glances Off
13:51:14 Combat 1300 to Devilfish Alvi - Gecko - Hits
13:51:09 Combat 1175 to Silverfish Alvi - Gecko - Penetrates
13:51:04 Combat 1175 to Silverfish Alvi - Gecko - Glances Off
13:50:59 Combat 850 to Strain Splinter Alvi - Gecko - Penetrates
13:50:54 Combat 975 to Strain Render Alvi - Gecko - Hits

But my gecko one shots 7 of the smallest rats with no misses.

epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Heavy drones are NOT capable against Frigates, You argued until you were blue in the face how wonderful they were, they are proven to be useless.

The issue needs fixing.


Proven where?

ive seen something that suggests they are slightly less effective than lights against frigs. i can live with that.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3227 - 2014-07-14 14:06:26 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Speaking of the Rattlesnake, I do not recommending using Heavies against NPC frigates. Something(tm) happened when CCP tweaked their tracking.

For example: warriors, ~12 seconds to kill an Angel Webifier


13:51:24 Combat 1300 to Devilfish Alvi - Gecko - Penetrates
13:51:19 Combat 850 to Strain Splinter Alvi - Gecko - Glances Off
13:51:14 Combat 1300 to Devilfish Alvi - Gecko - Hits
13:51:09 Combat 1175 to Silverfish Alvi - Gecko - Penetrates
13:51:04 Combat 1175 to Silverfish Alvi - Gecko - Glances Off
13:50:59 Combat 850 to Strain Splinter Alvi - Gecko - Penetrates
13:50:54 Combat 975 to Strain Render Alvi - Gecko - Hits

But my gecko one shots 7 of the smallest rats with no misses.

epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Heavy drones are NOT capable against Frigates, You argued until you were blue in the face how wonderful they were, they are proven to be useless.

The issue needs fixing.


Proven where?

ive seen something that suggests they are slightly less effective than lights against frigs. i can live with that.
'

+1

I've had zero problems getting my super-gecko to kill small npcs, then again my super gecko rarely gets to kill small things because I use 5 RHMLs and target paint the little guys while my gecko chews on Battleships, then I support the gecko with missile fire when the small stuff is dead, if any BSs are left that is.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#3228 - 2014-07-14 14:52:49 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Very well the forum warriors all agree that the ship is totally wonderful, everyone loves it, CCP deliberately buggered heavy drones as thats "fun" and everyone who does not agree or tries to discuss things, just does not appreciate that it should always be fitted with rapid heavy missiles, and of course the reaload delay does not matter as damage shows OMG look at that!. EFT is all that matters.
and worship the mighty gecko that never dies.
oh and Jumping around like a bloody Gerbil on amphetamines is somehow doing things right?
Damn thread needs to die anyway, was never any point to it, It was always going to be ignored.

The fact it is a good ship let down by poor drone damage application against common mission targets, is the heart of the matter. It could have been made something worth while, in reality it is like the curates egg, good in parts.

At Crufts a few years ago, there was a competition where the dogs raced around jumping over barriers against the clock. Everyone was cheering one in particular that was doing really well and winning, the rattlesnake can feel like this when on form. It feels great!

And just before the winning post right in front of the judges it stopped and did a hot steaming "spider drone" THATS what the rattlesnake feels like.

Pick whatever you want out of that. Screw this.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3229 - 2014-07-14 17:40:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaari Inkuran
Jenn aSide wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Speaking of the Rattlesnake, I do not recommending using Heavies against NPC frigates. Something(tm) happened when CCP tweaked their tracking.

For example: warriors, ~12 seconds to kill an Angel Webifier


13:51:24 Combat 1300 to Devilfish Alvi - Gecko - Penetrates
13:51:19 Combat 850 to Strain Splinter Alvi - Gecko - Glances Off
13:51:14 Combat 1300 to Devilfish Alvi - Gecko - Hits
13:51:09 Combat 1175 to Silverfish Alvi - Gecko - Penetrates
13:51:04 Combat 1175 to Silverfish Alvi - Gecko - Glances Off
13:50:59 Combat 850 to Strain Splinter Alvi - Gecko - Penetrates
13:50:54 Combat 975 to Strain Render Alvi - Gecko - Hits

But my gecko one shots 7 of the smallest rats with no misses.

epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Heavy drones are NOT capable against Frigates, You argued until you were blue in the face how wonderful they were, they are proven to be useless.

The issue needs fixing.


Proven where?

ive seen something that suggests they are slightly less effective than lights against frigs. i can live with that.
'

+1

I've had zero problems getting my super-gecko to kill small npcs, then again my super gecko rarely gets to kill small things because I use 5 RHMLs and target paint the little guys while my gecko chews on Battleships, then I support the gecko with missile fire when the small stuff is dead, if any BSs are left that is.


I think the new rattle looks amazing, and I'm training into it currently. I also love the gecko very much. But there's no more gecko supply and no production, and they aren't immortal. I'm a little overprotective of my geckos. Last I checked each gecko was 20M and I wonder if that number is going to stop going up soon. How do the NORMAL heavies do in Lv 4s?

edit: I've checked the HP of a rattle's ogre and its about 1/3 of a gecko. Cry Yeesh. Is the gecko just flat out superior in everything except raw DPS?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#3230 - 2014-07-14 18:24:18 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:


edit: I've checked the HP of a rattle's ogre and its about 1/3 of a gecko. Cry Yeesh. Is the gecko just flat out superior in everything except raw DPS?


pretty much.
However, the drawback of the Gecko is that a lot of its rainbow damage is resisted by elite rats. So use correct damage types against Arch Gist's, Guardian Serp's and the likes

Normal heavies do fine, they are NOT useless and still hit frigs. Its just the all or nothing nature of having fewer more powerful drones make them less consistent. Sometimes u'll insta pop frigs, sometimes there will be a few misses, sometimes there will be a lot of misses.

The rattlers drone bay still allows u to carry:
2x Heavies
2x Sentries
1x Gecko
5x Small

so if push comes to shove, having 5 smalls that do 66.67% of the damage they used to leaves the performance of the rattler against small targets unchanged in any significant way. U are not threatened by frigs in missions and u are not slowed down by frigates in ur missions such that ur rewards/hour are hurt.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#3231 - 2014-07-14 19:51:25 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:


edit: I've checked the HP of a rattle's ogre and its about 1/3 of a gecko. Cry Yeesh. Is the gecko just flat out superior in everything except raw DPS?


pretty much.
However, the drawback of the Gecko is that a lot of its rainbow damage is resisted by elite rats. So use correct damage types against Arch Gist's, Guardian Serp's and the likes

Normal heavies do fine, they are NOT useless and still hit frigs. Its just the all or nothing nature of having fewer more powerful drones make them less consistent. Sometimes u'll insta pop frigs, sometimes there will be a few misses, sometimes there will be a lot of misses.

The rattlers drone bay still allows u to carry:
2x Heavies
2x Sentries
1x Gecko
5x Small

so if push comes to shove, having 5 smalls that do 66.67% of the damage they used to leaves the performance of the rattler against small targets unchanged in any significant way. U are not threatened by frigs in missions and u are not slowed down by frigates in ur missions such that ur rewards/hour are hurt.



Well when a missile implant that adds 5% to damage costs eve's. equivalent value of a kidney losing 33.333% damage and 33.333% of your hitpoints is more than insignificant, it is more like losing a leg.

And when you have to kill EVERY rat to get to the next pocket it is as much fun as ..hmm... The rapid light missile reload timer.

Another great idea.

You are quite correct as to the use of racial heavies vs the gecko, but heavies are really not as good as you claim in my experience and stoicfaux figures show, at dealing with small targets. There is an issue there to correct if they are meant to be able to deal with them sensibly.

The danger is that that would make it a problem in PvP vs real player targets, we do not want to see heavies instablapping interceptors.

Possibly the removal of small drone bonus issue was not thought through properly.

Let's use an northern european analogy, you are having a fine time breezing down the road, your car is on song, all going well, having a great time in your new car (rattlesnake) you absolutely love it! The new models motor is so powerful!
But there in the road is an elk (rat) its a baby and dances around. But your new power steering is so slow every time you try to pass, you cant, time after time you try until eventually by luck or just patience theres a gap and you go through.

Now do you remember the wonderful feel of speed or the frustration of being stuck.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#3232 - 2014-07-14 20:19:20 UTC
Personal attack post removed.

Forum rule 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3233 - 2014-07-14 20:28:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

edit: I've checked the HP of a rattle's ogre and its about 1/3 of a gecko. Cry Yeesh. Is the gecko just flat out superior in everything except raw DPS?


If you're bothered by potentially losing drones, you can also try out faction variants instead of T2. This is also helpful if, like me, you don't have T2 heavies trained up. This also works well with faction sentries. The only thing you really lose is the T2 specialization bonus now that faction drones have been buffed to be not worthless.

Imperial Navy Praetors are just beastly.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#3234 - 2014-07-14 20:34:04 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

edit: I've checked the HP of a rattle's ogre and its about 1/3 of a gecko. Cry Yeesh. Is the gecko just flat out superior in everything except raw DPS?


If you're bothered by potentially losing drones, you can also try out faction variants instead of T2. This is also helpful if, like me, you don't have T2 heavies trained up. This also works well with faction sentries. The only thing you really lose is the T2 specialization bonus now that faction drones have been buffed to be not worthless.

Imperial Navy Praetors are just beastly.



You are absolutely correct.
The tracking on the faction drones is visibly and markedly superior.
Whilst still short of being an answer, they are the only heavy drones (+gecko) anyone should consider using on the rattlesnake until this is resolved.

They are also murderously good on the gila (faction mediums naturally on that ) the caldari ones are just mindblowing.

My God If the rattlesnake could only legitimately carry 2 Gila boosted drones *sound of homer simpson seeing dougnut*

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#3235 - 2014-07-14 20:48:28 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:



Well when a missile implant that adds 5% to damage costs eve's. equivalent value of a kidney losing 33.333% damage and 33.333% of your hitpoints is more than insignificant, it is more like losing a leg.



That is another gross exaggeration. Its not even like losing a pinky. it turns killing a frig in 8 seconds into killing a frig in 12 seconds. if u have 7 frigs to kill at the end of a room (which is a lot) then it takes 28 seconds longer to clear. Like i said, it hardly slows u down at all.

stoic's post shows heavies killing frigs faster than lights as well btw, as does mine.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3236 - 2014-07-14 21:42:56 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

edit: I've checked the HP of a rattle's ogre and its about 1/3 of a gecko. Cry Yeesh. Is the gecko just flat out superior in everything except raw DPS?


If you're bothered by potentially losing drones, you can also try out faction variants instead of T2. This is also helpful if, like me, you don't have T2 heavies trained up. This also works well with faction sentries. The only thing you really lose is the T2 specialization bonus now that faction drones have been buffed to be not worthless.

Imperial Navy Praetors are just beastly.

I'll give it heavy consideration. Either way I'm very excited to undock the ship when I get to lv 4 skills in all the right places. The train to gallenta BS V is a little daunting but knowing it applies to 5 pirate BS's and gives me instant access to the kronos, sweetens the deal.
Dally Lama
Doomheim
#3237 - 2014-07-15 04:06:34 UTC
Should a heavy drone really be tracking NPC frigate anyways? Probably not.

Love the new Rattler <3

New Fitting Window | Distances above 10km | Maximums for buy orders