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C4 BBQ Fleet
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King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2014-07-08 12:41:31 UTC
1c3crysta1 wrote:
King Aires wrote:
The problem with the Dominix is that you are going to kill your WH if it is a C4-C1 or a C1-K and the range is horrible for what you want to do.

The only drones that can hit at the needed range to survive a C4 Barracks for example is 85km+ and at that range you are using Sentries only. Sentries will get alpha'd by the sleepers. When you run out of drones you will be screwed.

So let us just refresh here. You have skills to fly BS, skills to use T2 SEntries and RR armor skills... also you have scanning skills or a scanning alt. But you have no skills for missiles, T3 or HACs? I mean a shield rokh for range would even be better than a Domi in my opinion.


Have you tried spider domis, in any situation?
Just keep those cap transfers running and drone aggro is a negligible problem. If there's any drones that're safe in case of sleeper aggro, it's the sentries with their big buffers (and close proximity to being scooped). And above that, they're in the lead when it comes to DPS at those ranges (behind cruise missiles, but without the damage delay). Apart from T3s or Marauders, I think that spider domis are as good as it gets with small groups. As for being to big for the hole, 3 domis are enough and getting them back and fourth through a hole isn't enough to pop any hole short from C1s, and who'll really go and farm those?



What low skill noob is going to be able to use T2 Sentries properly, let alone past the 80km mark? Yes I have used spider domi's for pos bashing and stuff like that, but living in a C4 myself I can promise you shields and missiles are the way to go here.
Robert Morningstar
Morningstar Excavations LTD
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#22 - 2014-07-08 19:58:04 UTC
Agreed 3 domi's can do c4 fine and will only burn half the mass to a c4 for the round trip. Have a dest set up to salvage after doing all the sites you intend or as you go along if you have the extra pilot you want 3 drone link augmentors 2-3 Omni II and bouncers as it will give you the range for any spawn. and I use 425 rail II with tungsten for range also do not forget the sebo with range script.
1c3crysta1
Silent Majority.
Aspartame.
#23 - 2014-07-08 21:58:04 UTC
King Aires wrote:


What low skill noob is going to be able to use T2 Sentries properly, let alone past the 80km mark? Yes I have used spider domi's for pos bashing and stuff like that, but living in a C4 myself I can promise you shields and missiles are the way to go here.



Hint:
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:


Yep we thought about that, but we're gunners / drone buddies. We don't know what those things that peeps call missiles are made for :p

However, maybe the Ferox can do the same job ?


Missiles ain't closer for them than drones are, especially since they don't seem to like them. I won't say that shield is wrong, but armor got its merits with spider domis.
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2014-07-08 22:56:44 UTC
1c3crysta1 wrote:
King Aires wrote:


What low skill noob is going to be able to use T2 Sentries properly, let alone past the 80km mark? Yes I have used spider domi's for pos bashing and stuff like that, but living in a C4 myself I can promise you shields and missiles are the way to go here.



Hint:
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:


Yep we thought about that, but we're gunners / drone buddies. We don't know what those things that peeps call missiles are made for :p

However, maybe the Ferox can do the same job ?


Missiles ain't closer for them than drones are, especially since they don't seem to like them. I won't say that shield is wrong, but armor got its merits with spider domis.



I guess if it is all you got... but 3 Tengus >>> 3 Drakes >>> 1 Golem >>> Mach >>> 1 CNR >>> 2 Sleipners >>> 3 Lokis >>> 3 Domis >>> Anything else

It is just a heck of a lot of mass on the hole, and they had better have a dedicated scanner with salvage equipment and they had better hope they don't get their exit closed. Nothing worse for WH noobs ninja'ing than to be in a C4-C4 and get stuck in an endless chain that eventually goes to NS.
1c3crysta1
Silent Majority.
Aspartame.
#25 - 2014-07-09 08:31:40 UTC
King Aires wrote:


I guess if it is all you got... but 3 Tengus >>> 3 Drakes >>> 1 Golem >>> Mach >>> 1 CNR >>> 2 Sleipners >>> 3 Lokis >>> 3 Domis >>> Anything else

It is just a heck of a lot of mass on the hole, and they had better have a dedicated scanner with salvage equipment and they had better hope they don't get their exit closed. Nothing worse for WH noobs ninja'ing than to be in a C4-C4 and get stuck in an endless chain that eventually goes to NS.


I can't see why you would keep going on about missile ships when they've explicitly said that they ain't interrested in them. I also can't understand why you forgot about the other two marauders. Both the Paladin and the Kronos can be fitted to do C4 work exemplary. To be completely honest, I can't see why you would prefer missile based ships at all since it's easier to get a low transversial against sleepers than it is to slow them down, especially at the distances that the C4 combat sites usually are at.

And for the weight on the hole, unless they bring a party of over ~6 battleships, I wouldn't worry all to much since a fresh 2bil-hole can take the weight of atleast 9 bs back and fourth. If they get backdoored by a raiding party big enough to cut them short of weight with that much buffer, they're screwed anyway.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#26 - 2014-07-09 11:04:27 UTC
two rr domis properly fit is enough to run c4 sites comfortably. more domis make the sites go faster. id say after a rr tengu gang, rr domis is the most efficient risk vs isk setup. ishtars are up there are well.

there are ships that will do it faster but they cost waaaay too much like marauders/pirate bs. prots are ok, lokis are worse (I have a lot of experience with lokis and c3/c4s) and command ships should work pretty decently but training for them takes aaaages. drakes should work but not as good as domis.

c4 holes have either 2bill or 3bill mass depending on where they connect. a domi has just over 100mill mass. I dont think a bs can even fit through a c1 fyi so you will need to look for c2/3/5/6 holes to get to c4s. also have a cloaky scanning alt sitting on the entrance hole and spam dscan like a mofo.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2014-07-09 11:33:34 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
two rr domis properly fit is enough to run c4 sites comfortably. more domis make the sites go faster. id say after a rr tengu gang, rr domis is the most efficient risk vs isk setup. ishtars are up there are well.

there are ships that will do it faster but they cost waaaay too much like marauders/pirate bs. prots are ok, lokis are worse (I have a lot of experience with lokis and c3/c4s) and command ships should work pretty decently but training for them takes aaaages. drakes should work but not as good as domis.

c4 holes have either 2bill or 3bill mass depending on where they connect. a domi has just over 100mill mass. I dont think a bs can even fit through a c1 fyi so you will need to look for c2/3/5/6 holes to get to c4s. also have a cloaky scanning alt sitting on the entrance hole and spam dscan like a mofo.


Seriously there is not a single Wormhole to a C4 that is larger than 2bil... all but the wandering ones (which I have yet to come across) and those are 1bil. And pretty much everything else you said goes along with how people were suggesting Ishtars or Drakes in the beginning. But they aren't trained for either.

Also should be mentioned if your scanner/salvager can also be a T3 with gang links, that would help things out a lot.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#28 - 2014-07-10 09:21:13 UTC
arent c4s that is connected to c5 and c6 whs 3bill? I just remember that c4s were a special kind of pita when we lived in the c5 as you cant get caps through it.

we used to run them with rr tengus sure but rr domis will work just as well.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Boudacca Sangrere
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-07-10 12:06:47 UTC
Daytripping into a C4 is a bit more difficult as you will usually not have a direct connection to Empire space. It makes therefore more sense either just going into a C3 (for the day), or if you do want to go to a C4, to stay a bit longer. Set up a cheap tower with some defenses (neuts, guns, SCRAMS). It will give you a (relatively) save heaven for your operation. Ideally you want a C4-C4 hole for that so that you can run sites every day (or any other hole with a C4 static). Alternatively, you also could use a cloaky Orca... (much less secure IMHO, but more mobile). And you can use the Orca to roll the static a bit faster...

IF you do stay for a bit, then few options will surpass the Spider Domi Fleet (sentries are NOT regularly shot by sleepers, and you CAN rep them too, you know). One alternative to the Domi Fleet would be a Rattlesnake fleet. More 50% more tank AND 50% more DPS is nothing to sneeze at (my Sleeper Rattler does about 1450 dps). Granted, missile skills do help a LOT, but also look at the boni the rattler gives to drones... Oh, and you will want Battleships if you are planning to roll holes as well.

I hope this helps. Feel free to look me up in game should you have more questions. I am always happy to have more targ... err neighbours Cool

Oh. and for the love of BOB, have at least 1, better 2 scouts in scanning ships in the hole. (personally that is the best advise I can give).


B.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#30 - 2014-07-11 11:41:41 UTC
If you're worried about mass, you could try a spider proteus fleet.

Railgun spider setup has a nice projection and comparable tank to Tengu RR, drone spider setup could be made considerably more robust with still very nice DPS.
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-07-13 11:38:30 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:
arent c4s that is connected to c5 and c6 whs 3bill? I just remember that c4s were a special kind of pita when we lived in the c5 as you cant get caps through it.

we used to run them with rr tengus sure but rr domis will work just as well.



No, all C4 holes are 2bil or 1bil... Also there has yet to be reported a Empire to C4 wandering hole with the K162 in the C4... but on paper I guess it is possible. Still from what others have gathered even those would be 1 or 2bil.

Also second the recommendation for a Rattle or Proteus fleet if you have to stay on the dark side of the force.
Lar Tadaruwa
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-07-13 12:09:24 UTC
hmm, so I get quick offers for WH but nothing concrete or close to technically feasible yet.
I should post a list of factors that are related.

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Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#33 - 2014-07-13 18:36:17 UTC
Spider tanked Rattlesnakes.

Print that isk fast!
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#34 - 2014-07-13 21:23:35 UTC
Since I heard someone asking about BCs for it, I present the spider ferox.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#35 - 2014-07-14 00:23:46 UTC
as said.. get drakes and do C3's. Make isk and when ready and have isk move up. I know you have no interest in missiles skills.. but for this type of PVE and others.. there is no better option. I have been there, tried the them.. and trust me.. ninjaing wh sites is best done in missile boats, or with good skills ishtars. BS are no good for jumping holes.. yes they work.. but you will at some stage get separated... or get extremely frustrated...
Take the time to prep correctly.. its worth it.

... What next ??
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2014-07-14 11:22:50 UTC
GordonO wrote:
as said.. get drakes and do C3's. Make isk and when ready and have isk move up. I know you have no interest in missiles skills.. but for this type of PVE and others.. there is no better option. I have been there, tried the them.. and trust me.. ninjaing wh sites is best done in missile boats, or with good skills ishtars. BS are no good for jumping holes.. yes they work.. but you will at some stage get separated... or get extremely frustrated...
Take the time to prep correctly.. its worth it.



Yeah, unless you live in a hole with a static C4 you really aren't going to do day trips into C4's.

My C4 is usually 4 or 5 holes deep ( Shocked ) before I see empire space. And some times we get a spider web of holes and we practically have to draw and scan a hand made diagram.

Also most C4 holes are 16 hour 2 bil holes as stated before. I find 24 hour holes easier for a whole corp to ninja through, and because of the nature of C4's it is very hard to find them unoccupied.

Again, there are very few wanderings into a C4. We get about 3 a month and almost always from a C2 or C4.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#37 - 2014-07-14 19:19:05 UTC
King Aires wrote:
GordonO wrote:
as said.. get drakes and do C3's. Make isk and when ready and have isk move up. I know you have no interest in missiles skills.. but for this type of PVE and others.. there is no better option. I have been there, tried the them.. and trust me.. ninjaing wh sites is best done in missile boats, or with good skills ishtars. BS are no good for jumping holes.. yes they work.. but you will at some stage get separated... or get extremely frustrated...
Take the time to prep correctly.. its worth it.



Yeah, unless you live in a hole with a static C4 you really aren't going to do day trips into C4's.

My C4 is usually 4 or 5 holes deep ( Shocked ) before I see empire space. And some times we get a spider web of holes and we practically have to draw and scan a hand made diagram.

Also most C4 holes are 16 hour 2 bil holes as stated before. I find 24 hour holes easier for a whole corp to ninja through, and because of the nature of C4's it is very hard to find them unoccupied.

Again, there are very few wanderings into a C4. We get about 3 a month and almost always from a C2 or C4.

Google docs has a wonderful, sharable draw function that allows easy logical mapping by multiple scanners.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
#38 - 2014-07-16 03:13:35 UTC
er, C4 to C1-C4 holes are always 2b mass & 16 hrs. C4 to C5-C6 holes are 3b mass. The ones that might differ are wanderings like T405 into C4 space. Never really bothered to check them.

Also, check out the w-space subforum, there's a sticky about what to use to sites. C4 anoms are pretty simple as long as you can tank 1400 dps, 100k ehp, survive nueting, outdps the reps & of course hit 80km ranges consistently.

2 domis & logi are pretty fast considering the total fleet cost.
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2014-07-18 19:43:45 UTC
Adriana Nolen wrote:
er, C4 to C1-C4 holes are always 2b mass & 16 hrs. C4 to C5-C6 holes are 3b mass. The ones that might differ are wanderings like T405 into C4 space. Never really bothered to check them.

Also, check out the w-space subforum, there's a sticky about what to use to sites. C4 anoms are pretty simple as long as you can tank 1400 dps, 100k ehp, survive nueting, outdps the reps & of course hit 80km ranges consistently.

2 domis & logi are pretty fast considering the total fleet cost.



It isn't about the holes that go FROM a C4, it is about what holes go TO a C4.

There are exits FROM a C4 to higher class holes that are 3bil, but there is no hole TO a C4 that is larger than 2bil 16hours.

You are missing the point is to get into the C4, not how to get back out.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Wormholes

For reference

Y683
X877
E175
Z457
T405 (very rare)

These are all 2bil holes, the last wanderer is the M609 which is even rarer than the T405 and it is 1bil.
Kalel Nimrott
Caldari Provisions
#40 - 2014-07-21 19:35:50 UTC
Triakis Cadelanne wrote:
Thanks for those replies. As I said, I don't want to use battleships since they would wreck the WH we want to use to acces the C4 and go back home. Ishtars may be nice but we don't have enough skilled member to find this as a valid solution. Same for Tengus (and a Tengu cost an arm and half).

I'll try some fit of spider tanked prophecy, thanks for the tip !


What wormhole id has the one that you want to use?

Bob Artis, you will be missed.

O7
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