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Mittani: Greifers drive away new players

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Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#321 - 2014-07-14 07:13:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Why [form a high sec mining or mission running fleet]? This is not a highsec mining or level 4 missioning corporation/alliance. IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT TO DO, THERE ARE CORPS FOR THAT. Does it make sense to join factional warfare and form C6 capital escalation fleets? No.


Or, in other words, if you want to mine in high sec or run level 4 missions, "get the **** out of our corp". (And, good luck getting all your stuff back to high sec by yourself.) You have made my point for me.


Of course, this completely ignores the Nullsec Mining Fleets that I regularly see on my fleet finder, the special interest group you can join for Incursion running, and the two threads currently on the front pages of our forums giving tips and advice on how and where to run NPC Nullsec Missions, and ship fits and tactics for anomaly running. Why would you want to run Highsec versions of any of these in a permanently-wardecced Nullsec Alliance? But you want that style of gameplay, they are available to you, in a Nullsec flavour. You are showing just as much ignorance of a well-organised corporation than you are calling James out for about the Starter Corporations; and if I was being uncharitable, I might point out you are spouting the very misconceptions about the options available to a new player that was James' very exact point..
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#322 - 2014-07-14 07:19:36 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Why [form a high sec mining or mission running fleet]? This is not a highsec mining or level 4 missioning corporation/alliance. IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT TO DO, THERE ARE CORPS FOR THAT. Does it make sense to join factional warfare and form C6 capital escalation fleets? No.


Or, in other words, if you want to mine in high sec or run level 4 missions, "get the **** out of our corp". (And, good luck getting all your stuff back to high sec by yourself.) You have made my point for me.


Of course, this completely ignores the Nullsec Mining Fleets that I regularly see on my fleet finder, the special interest group you can join for Incursion running, and the two threads currently on the front pages of our forums giving tips and advice on how and where to run NPC Nullsec Missions, and ship fits and tactics for anomaly running. Why would you want to run Highsec versions of any of these in a permanently-wardecced Nullsec Alliance? You are showing just as much ignorance of a well-organised corporation than you are calling James out for about the Starter Corporations.


You're assuming he needs to know what he's talking about in order to just blindly "Grr Goons!" at everything anyone else says.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#323 - 2014-07-14 08:05:07 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Why [form a high sec mining or mission running fleet]? This is not a highsec mining or level 4 missioning corporation/alliance. IF THAT'S WHAT YOU WANT TO DO, THERE ARE CORPS FOR THAT. Does it make sense to join factional warfare and form C6 capital escalation fleets? No.


Or, in other words, if you want to mine in high sec or run level 4 missions, "get the **** out of our corp". (And, good luck getting all your stuff back to high sec by yourself.) You have made my point for me.


Of course, this completely ignores the Nullsec Mining Fleets that I regularly see on my fleet finder, the special interest group you can join for Incursion running, and the two threads currently on the front pages of our forums giving tips and advice on how and where to run NPC Nullsec Missions, and ship fits and tactics for anomaly running. Why would you want to run Highsec versions of any of these in a permanently-wardecced Nullsec Alliance? You are showing just as much ignorance of a well-organised corporation than you are calling James out for about the Starter Corporations.


You're assuming he needs to know what he's talking about in order to just blindly "Grr Goons!" at everything anyone else says.



It is GD after all.


Dem Goons Doe
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#324 - 2014-07-14 08:40:49 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're assuming he needs to know what he's talking about in order to just blindly "Grr Goons!" at everything anyone else says.


As if you actually knew what you were talking about . . .
Did you know that the story of Goonswarm noobs fighting off battleship fleets and Titans with just Merlins and Rifters and such was one of the most compelling stories I read about the game before I started playing and was one of the things that drew me to the game? As per Aralyn Cormallen's comment, I guess the Goon noobs these days have it much easier (although, less fun). I'm still trying to figure out if that is because the game has changed or because the story was a farce all along. I suspect it's a lot of both. But as for me hating Goons, you couldn't be further off base.

. . .

Either way, there is no null sec mining fleet in my fleet finder window to ignore. As a player who is not part of the blue donut, the game is not handed to me on a silver platter. The game mechanics have not been skewed to suit my play style. I do not get free ships and ISK and PLEX and whatever else you give people to induce them to accept The Mittani as their lord and savior. Your approval is not going to be enough to keep myself and many other players playing the game.

You're claiming I don't know what I'm talking about, but I just have a different perspective, one of the kind of people who do not bend to your will. You reward the people who conform. You **** on the people who resist. And given the wealth and influence some of you have in the game (and out of it), we're talking about a pretty juicy carrot and a pretty big stick you are wielding. A noob does not stand a chance and that's a large part of why so many of them make a strategic withdrawal to a different game. Isn't that the point of your strategy?

Many (probably most) people will not play a game that is not fair. Is EVE fair?

Many (probably most) people will not play a game that makes them feel impotent and frustrated. Can you think of some experiences in EVE that make noobs feel impotent and frustrated?

It's not hard to figure this stuff out, but first, you have you remove your head from your ass and take a look in the mirror. You might be the problem.
Angelica Everstar
#325 - 2014-07-14 09:48:27 UTC
Some time ago I posted a thread about this very subject. I see this as one of the easiest things to fix (dev time) and one of the most important things to fix for the game overall. I even tried to talk and bribe some of the devs and Hilmar into fixing this precise issue. Even got a "this would be worth looking into" from devs and Hilmar. Both this and last years FanFest
Both now Goons are saying it, it might just happen :-D

§ Current Bond AE09 1 Trillion / Acc. 4,5t ISK

ƒ Want to become a better trader ?

¢ Pls help support EVEs charities!

@EveEntrepreneur
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#326 - 2014-07-14 09:54:00 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
words.


Have you ever considered the possibility that you're not an edgy, contrarian vagabond with a hairy chest and a thousand yard stare, but are in fact a myopic putz who makes EVE difficult for yourself for no benefit at all?

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#327 - 2014-07-14 09:58:20 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
The game mechanics have not been skewed to suit my play style.


Nor have they been skewed to fit any play style, some people are just better at adapting their play style to the mechanics in order to take best advantage of them. Those players are called "people who know what they're doing".

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#328 - 2014-07-14 09:59:31 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're assuming he needs to know what he's talking about in order to just blindly "Grr Goons!" at everything anyone else says.


As if you actually knew what you were talking about . . .
Did you know that the story of Goonswarm noobs fighting off battleship fleets and Titans with just Merlins and Rifters and such was one of the most compelling stories I read about the game before I started playing and was one of the things that drew me to the game? As per Aralyn Cormallen's comment, I guess the Goon noobs these days have it much easier (although, less fun). I'm still trying to figure out if that is because the game has changed or because the story was a farce all along. I suspect it's a lot of both. But as for me hating Goons, you couldn't be further off base.

. . .

Either way, there is no null sec mining fleet in my fleet finder window to ignore. As a player who is not part of the blue donut, the game is not handed to me on a silver platter. The game mechanics have not been skewed to suit my play style. I do not get free ships and ISK and PLEX and whatever else you give people to induce them to accept The Mittani as their lord and savior. Your approval is not going to be enough to keep myself and many other players playing the game.

You're claiming I don't know what I'm talking about, but I just have a different perspective, one of the kind of people who do not bend to your will. You reward the people who conform. You **** on the people who resist. And given the wealth and influence some of you have in the game (and out of it), we're talking about a pretty juicy carrot and a pretty big stick you are wielding. A noob does not stand a chance and that's a large part of why so many of them make a strategic withdrawal to a different game. Isn't that the point of your strategy?

Many (probably most) people will not play a game that is not fair. Is EVE fair?

Many (probably most) people will not play a game that makes them feel impotent and frustrated. Can you think of some experiences in EVE that make noobs feel impotent and frustrated?

It's not hard to figure this stuff out, but first, you have you remove your head from your ass and take a look in the mirror. You might be the problem.
Just because you can't reach the grapes on the vine, doesn't make them sour. Honestly this is the most eloquent sour grapes post ever.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Endarken
Doomheim
#329 - 2014-07-14 10:09:06 UTC
He doesn't even need to log in to the forum to troll it.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#330 - 2014-07-14 10:15:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mayhaw Morgan
Arkady Romanov wrote:
Have you ever considered the possibility that you're not an edgy, contrarian vagabond with a hairy chest and a thousand yard stare, but are in fact a myopic putz who makes EVE difficult for yourself for no benefit at all?

Isn't that what the original Goons did by resisting Band of Brothers? Will the real Goonswarm please stand up?

Remiel Pollard wrote:
Nor have [game mechanics] been skewed to fit any play style, some people are just better at adapting their play style to the mechanics in order to take best advantage of them. Those players are called "people who know what they're doing".

I'll tell you like I tell the noobs in the State War Academy channel.
"best" <- don't do that.

Falin Whalen wrote:
Just because you can't reach the grapes on the vine, doesn't make them sour. Honestly this is the most eloquent sour grapes post ever.

No sour grapes here. I play EVE because it's fun, not out of spite.

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
You might be the problem.


^ I think this bears repeating.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#331 - 2014-07-14 10:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:

Remiel Pollard wrote:
Nor have [game mechanics] been skewed to fit any play style, some people are just better at adapting their play style to the mechanics in order to take best advantage of them. Those players are called "people who know what they're doing".

I'll tell you like I tell the noobs in the State War Academy channel.
"best" <- don't do that.


Is that a point of contention? Because it's not a very good one. And as far as I'm concerned, everyone in your little state war channel is a noob. Choosing an NPC corp makes you an NPC in my book.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#332 - 2014-07-14 10:23:51 UTC
"Bend to your will"...

Whose will, exactly? I live in highsec and/or a wormhole. But thanks for proving me completely right about your nullsec persecution complex. If someone disagrees, I must be trying to force you to play the game my way, or something.

Pass the tinfoil.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Luscius Uta
#333 - 2014-07-14 11:31:39 UTC
I have recently created a new character and redid the career agent missions, during which I realised how terrible new player experience is in EVE.
Making new players think that EVE is about shooting red crosses even isn't the biggest part of the problem. What is the most dreadful is not giving them any proper advices on fitting their ships.
Have you ever wondered why so many noobs dual-tank? It's because one mission gives them an armour-tanking module, and then in the next mission they get a shield tanking module!
At this early stage of their careers, they usually don't have enough money to buy more worthwile modules from the market (and won't have enough insight about modules and ship fittings to know what's wrong with their fits) so they will usually fit their ships with all the modules they have gathered so far, resulting in horrible fits we've all seen on many lossmails.
To remedy this, career missions should have consistent module progression (meaning they should give out an armour repair module in one mission and then a cap recharger in the next mission, so you can run that repper longer).
At the end of the tutorial, new player should have enough modules to fit any ship they have been rewarded with effectively and sensibly, even if cheaply.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Intar Medris
KarmaFleet University
#334 - 2014-07-14 11:32:37 UTC
That is actually a really solid idea. A nooblet training zone is perfect. Just inform them once they leave the gloves are off, and they are their own.

I try to be nice and mind my business just shooting lasers at rocks. There is just way too many asshats in New Eden for that to happen.
Handar Turiant
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#335 - 2014-07-14 11:56:22 UTC
Couldn't be bothered to read 17 pages, so my 2 cents (disclaimer: generalisations abound):

New players tend to mission mostly when they start out. Which is hella boring. Most new people don't have an army of multiboxed Tengu alts.

Most new players, at a certain time in their eve career, start to look beyond and go for a corporation and interaction.

Generally speaking, if they stay long enough for this step, they have read a metric ton of background information on all kinds of game mechanics. I'm talking weeks here.

What happens?

1 API is mandatory. What? They can see everything I do now? Even my emails?
2 Fleet Doctrine: you must fly wat wee need, at all times. Back to the skillboard.
3 TS is mandatory. I gotta get online in all kinds of other apps now, and I need IP's and stuff.
4 You're on TS: 100% Jargon, unintelligeble babble: it feels hella awkward. Noob is scared to talk. Everything moving too fast
5 Noob sees a red, finally the BLAP! (by this time, hours if not days have passed). Noob gets pwned in 10 seconds. Probably shot the wrong thing, or at the wrong time.
6 Gang moves on, noob can never catch up. Done. wait till next weekend to rejoin another exciting PvP roam.

The barrier to entry is still too high. Much too high.

Brave Newbies is cool though. They seem to get that they need to lower the barrier immensly.
Varathius
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#336 - 2014-07-14 12:02:42 UTC
Handar Turiant wrote:
Couldn't be bothered to read 17 pages, so my 2 cents (disclaimer: generalisations abound):

New players tend to mission mostly when they start out. Which is hella boring. Most new people don't have an army of multiboxed Tengu alts.

Most new players, at a certain time in their eve career, start to look beyond and go for a corporation and interaction.

Generally speaking, if they stay long enough for this step, they have read a metric ton of background information on all kinds of game mechanics. I'm talking weeks here.

What happens?

1 API is mandatory. What? They can see everything I do now? Even my emails?
2 Fleet Doctrine: you must fly wat wee need, at all times. Back to the skillboard.
3 TS is mandatory. I gotta get online in all kinds of other apps now, and I need IP's and stuff.
4 You're on TS: 100% Jargon, unintelligeble babble: it feels hella awkward. Noob is scared to talk. Everything moving too fast
5 Noob sees a red, finally the BLAP! (by this time, hours if not days have passed). Noob gets pwned in 10 seconds. Probably shot the wrong thing, or at the wrong time.
6 Gang moves on, noob can never catch up. Done. wait till next weekend to rejoin another exciting PvP roam.

The barrier to entry is still too high. Much too high.

Brave Newbies is cool though. They seem to get that they need to lower the barrier immensly.


You mentioned some good points. You need to understand however that the steep learning curve of eve, keeps a lot of the brainless COD warriors out of the game, kind of a positive aspect of the game imho.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#337 - 2014-07-14 12:24:45 UTC
Handar Turiant wrote:
Couldn't be bothered to read 17 pages, so my 2 cents (disclaimer: generalisations abound):

New players tend to mission mostly when they start out. Which is hella boring. Most new people don't have an army of multiboxed Tengu alts.

Most new players, at a certain time in their eve career, start to look beyond and go for a corporation and interaction.

Generally speaking, if they stay long enough for this step, they have read a metric ton of background information on all kinds of game mechanics. I'm talking weeks here.

What happens?

1 API is mandatory. What? They can see everything I do now? Even my emails?
2 Fleet Doctrine: you must fly wat wee need, at all times. Back to the skillboard.
3 TS is mandatory. I gotta get online in all kinds of other apps now, and I need IP's and stuff.
4 You're on TS: 100% Jargon, unintelligeble babble: it feels hella awkward. Noob is scared to talk. Everything moving too fast
5 Noob sees a red, finally the BLAP! (by this time, hours if not days have passed). Noob gets pwned in 10 seconds. Probably shot the wrong thing, or at the wrong time.
6 Gang moves on, noob can never catch up. Done. wait till next weekend to rejoin another exciting PvP roam.

The barrier to entry is still too high. Much too high.

Brave Newbies is cool though. They seem to get that they need to lower the barrier immensly.



These are all barriers that any successful/long term EVE player has had to deal with. What marks a gamer as EVE material is if he/she sees what you wrote as 'barriers' or as things to be knocked out of the way so they can have some fun.

It's not unlike many aspects of real life, like police and fire academy training or military basic training. Those activities don't take 'everyone' and make them into cops/fire fighters/military service people, it's takes those suited to those jobs and helps them realize their potential while weeding out (the majority of) the unsuitables.

EVE does exactly that, and IMO the only things CCP should be worried about is longer term retention of the relatively few people who are suited to the EVE lifestyle, which are, again, gamers who see challenges rather than barriers.

Despite what some think, EVE has done a good job of this over the past 11 years, as evidenced by the fact that we're on an EVE forum talking about EVE in the present tense.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#338 - 2014-07-14 12:42:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
One of the best things about the Goons is that they RIP their (new to the game) newbs out of high sec/safety damn near the second they are 'born'. They do that so that the newb will see real EVE not the 'EVE-lite' protected space is. Sink or Swim has been used for centuries to wonderful effect.

Sink or swim... while being showered in ISK, skillbooks, and free frigates. And when they move up the ladder to doctrine ships, those have ISK reimbursement (which Goonwaffe members get a special cut of, although other member corps are free to do this as well). They're also brought in having already established themselves in the culture of Goons (having made the requisite transaction of tenbux, United States Dollars).

Goonwaffe's NPE is not one that the game is able to replicate on its own. If you were to make an actual sink-or-swim NPE you'd place the player in nullsec with pretty limited support. Can't give people isk - that would be abused pretty hard. Can't give people too many ships - that would be abused pretty hard. Can't really bring a player in with established social groups, because those that can do so are already doing so. Free skillbooks is about it. You dump new players into space with free-engagement and they're just going to get killed with impunity, and quit because they have no chance of fighting back. The same would happen even if you restricted this pvp to the new characters only, since there's no reliable way for the game to tell if a player of a new character is actually new themselves or not. You end up with the same situation.

Mittens could come out right now and say he's trolling. Wouldn't change any of what I've written here.
\

You miss the point. The way your own alliance does it proves that the very idea of more safety for people starting out is foolish. That you lavish them with things is immaterial, a single investment in a single plex would keep a new player in frigs for years. and unlike when I started, frigs are actually useful.

New players are already protected by high sec game mechanics (which a monkey with a head wound and an American public school education should be able to figure out) as well as strict policies regarding the starter system and some start activities (such as the SOE arc).

Almost everyone present on this board got dumped into the game with a noob frig and 5k isk in many cases WAY before CCP started protecting noobs. and yet here we are..We've all watched as CCP has handed 'new players' and carebears buff after buff after buff in the name of player retention. The game is light years easier to come into and sustain one's self now than it was even when I started in 2007.

And for what? Is the game better for it? Are the players? I don't think so at all. I personally think that there has to be at least some correlation between how the game is safer than ever and the apparent 'stagnation' everyone is talking about. More safety is never ever the answer to any question if that question has the word "EVE" in it.
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#339 - 2014-07-14 12:45:22 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
So... who's going to make the F&I posts for the recommendations mentioned in the article?

Because I, for one, would like to see how CCP responds when all of the goons +1 an F&I suggestion.


edit: Protected Newbie Area F&I: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=357990&find=unread
edit: Remove high-sec Awoxing: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=357991&find=unread


Good idea, has not generated quite the hilarity I had hoped for yet...but...

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
Reiisha
#340 - 2014-07-14 13:11:53 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Prt Scr wrote:
Hell must have frozen over, I find my-self in agreement with a goon...and not just any goon , but the arch goon. I will pinch myself to see if I am dreaming and check if my meds. have been spiked.


Same here.
But the big one is right- there are a whole bunch of game mechanics in EVE that are counter-intuitive for newbies and appear more like exploits or loopholes than actual game concepts.
And any game mechanic that disincentivizes players from actually playing the game (that is: socializing and pvp) is bad and should be removed.


the problem is, things like awoxing is playing the game for some people.


If they drive away all the new players there won't be a game left for them to play.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...