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Mittani: Greifers drive away new players

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Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#241 - 2014-07-13 12:21:51 UTC
Sisohiv wrote:
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Sisohiv wrote:
insert one of the 20,000 snotshots Goons would throw at anyone else who even tried to suggest that maybe player behavior is at the root of a shrinking EVE.


So what you are saying is you agree with his comments completely, but because the sentiment is coming from a Goon, you can't say that, and since you can't disagree (since it aligns with your own opinion) you are just going to make a snarky comment.

And people think we are the problem.



HTFU?
Can I haz your stuff?
Go back to WoW?
Don't let the door smack you in the ass?
Adapt or die?

I agree with someone on this forum. Mr. Epeen.

I trust you guys about as far as I can throw you.


Where did I suggest you trust us? That would just be silly.

But sharing an opinion with one of us isn't a capital crime that immediately makes you a Goon-sympathiser. You agree on one thing said by one person doesn't make you contractually obliged to agree with all of us on every thing. Hell, I'm in Goonswarm, and I don't agree with a lot my alliance-mates say (the boss man once called me a very mean name during one discussion, but that's ok, you might be amazed to learn we are allowed dissenting opinions from time to time). Personally I'm not on board with parts of the second part of his article in this case.

Refusing to agree with an opinion about a problem (that you actually do agree with), just because of the person voicing it makes you worse than someone who disagrees for honest reasons. You are helping to block what you want to see done out of petty spite. it doesn't help your cause.
Josef Djugashvilis
#242 - 2014-07-13 12:31:05 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Whatever the problem, TiDi, disconnects, POS issues, losing that Titan etc, hi-sec is to blame.

Is that your response to everything now?


I was impersonating Baltec 1 for a moment Smile

Normally, I never post in favour of any sec, I leave the game-play balance to our CCP Overlords, but now I have stopped being neutral in favour of null-sec being improved as a player experience.

This is not a signature.
Josef Djugashvilis
#243 - 2014-07-13 12:33:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Edit, double post

This is not a signature.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#244 - 2014-07-13 12:43:54 UTC
The NPE should insist on the newly minted newbie leaving the newbie corporation. No more of this newbie forever silliness disguised as being a helping hand.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#245 - 2014-07-13 12:56:30 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Sisohiv wrote:
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Sisohiv wrote:
insert one of the 20,000 snotshots Goons would throw at anyone else who even tried to suggest that maybe player behavior is at the root of a shrinking EVE.


So what you are saying is you agree with his comments completely, but because the sentiment is coming from a Goon, you can't say that, and since you can't disagree (since it aligns with your own opinion) you are just going to make a snarky comment.

And people think we are the problem.



HTFU?
Can I haz your stuff?
Go back to WoW?
Don't let the door smack you in the ass?
Adapt or die?

I agree with someone on this forum. Mr. Epeen.

I trust you guys about as far as I can throw you.


Where did I suggest you trust us? That would just be silly.

But sharing an opinion with one of us isn't a capital crime that immediately makes you a Goon-sympathiser. You agree on one thing said by one person doesn't make you contractually obliged to agree with all of us on every thing. Hell, I'm in Goonswarm, and I don't agree with a lot my alliance-mates say (the boss man once called me a very mean name during one discussion, but that's ok, you might be amazed to learn we are allowed dissenting opinions from time to time). Personally I'm not on board with parts of the second part of his article in this case.

Refusing to agree with an opinion about a problem (that you actually do agree with), just because of the person voicing it makes you worse than someone who disagrees for honest reasons. You are helping to block what you want to see done out of petty spite. it doesn't help your cause.




Petty spite is the motive behind most of EVE activity. It doesn't help EVE either but I don't see how CCP can nerf spite.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#246 - 2014-07-13 13:06:06 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
The NPE should insist on the newly minted newbie leaving the newbie corporation. No more of this newbie forever silliness disguised as being a helping hand.

And, how does that help them to learn about the game or bounce back from early failures?

I would actually suggest restricting them from joining a corp for the first month, since early on, they don't know WTF they are doing and could use the experience of a large pool of players (of many different stripes) to get their bearings in the game.

Many of you may not like to hear it, but everyone needs help, needs someone to have mercy on them and compassion for them. You were not born into the world able to stand on your own two feet. It takes a human a year or more just to learn very basic communication and mobility. Even 10 years into their life, people are essentially helpless. EVE may not be as complicated as that, but the analogy is very appropriate. (I should know; I have seen both.)

In EVE, we have no mother or father. We have no big brother or sister to nurture and protect us while we figure things out. The closest thing there is is the noob-corp we are spawned into by default. There is no reason that noob-corp can't function in an analogous way, and there is no reason to rip people out of that just so you can get your jollies by ******* with them before they even know what a warp disruptor is or the difference between an afterburner and a microwarpdrive.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#247 - 2014-07-13 13:59:13 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
I would actually suggest restricting them from joining a corp for the first month, since early on, they don't know WTF they are doing and could use the experience of a large pool of players (of many different stripes) to get their bearings in the game.


They could definitely use the experience of a large pool of players to get their bearings. The large pool of players present in a player corporation, for instance.

The idea that the newbie corps are populated by "players of many different stripes" is only nominally true. The vast majority of the characters in the newbie corps are throwaway characters, forum alts, expired trials or trade hub alts.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#248 - 2014-07-13 14:00:35 UTC
Sisohiv wrote:

Petty spite is the motive behind most of EVE activity. It doesn't help EVE either but I don't see how CCP can nerf spite.


Yeah mining and missioning and FW and Market Trading and ship spinning are all driven by spite, confirmed

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#249 - 2014-07-13 14:24:47 UTC
Evidently discussions on how to improve the game are a game activity and therefore should be driven by spite.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#250 - 2014-07-13 15:07:09 UTC
Andski wrote:
They could definitely use the experience of a large pool of players to get their bearings. The large pool of players present in a player corporation, for instance.


Most player corps are much smaller than most NPC corps, even accepting your premise that most of the characters in NPC corps are "not real" or whatever.

Most player corps are interested in teaching new players about HOW THEY play the game more than HOW TO play the game. And, when you're in a player corp, especially one in unsecure space, those other players in your corp can just kill you if you don't submit and conform to their playstyles. A newbie who can't fend off a ganker or griefer in high sec sure isn't going to have much to say 5-10 jumps into low sec or 30 jumps into null when one of his "superiors" tells him to do something he doesn't want to. You may not realize it, goon, but not everyone wants to be one of your peons, and forcing that on them might actually make them not want to log in or resubscribe.

Putting new players in a noob-corp exposes them to other noobs who they can interact with on a level playing field and maybe even learn from eachothers' mistakes and form social groups with. And, not all of the older characters are "throwaways" or cyno-alts.

Andski wrote:
The idea that the newbie corps are populated by "players of many different stripes" is only nominally true. The vast majority of the characters in the newbie corps are throwaway characters, forum alts, expired trials or trade hub alts.

Did Goonwaffe conduct a poll? How do you know the demographic makeup of every noob-corp?

Let's face it. Noobs have a hard time in EVE because killing, scamming, griefing them, etc. is like shooting fish in a barrel. Many of the suggestions you people are fielding are essentially that we take away their barrel.
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2014-07-13 15:52:46 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Sisohiv wrote:

Petty spite is the motive behind most of EVE activity. It doesn't help EVE either but I don't see how CCP can nerf spite.


Yeah mining and missioning and FW and Market Trading and ship spinning are all driven by spite, confirmed



According to moontani and his hit squad, those aren't EVE though. Those are the activities of the evil carebears that would destroy EVE.

And you are going to find I make it easy to shoot holes in every thing I write. it helps me to establish who is being contrary for the sake of contrary.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#252 - 2014-07-13 16:08:20 UTC
Sisohiv wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Sisohiv wrote:

Petty spite is the motive behind most of EVE activity. It doesn't help EVE either but I don't see how CCP can nerf spite.


Yeah mining and missioning and FW and Market Trading and ship spinning are all driven by spite, confirmed



According to moontani and his hit squad, those aren't EVE though. Those are the activities of the evil carebears that would destroy EVE.

Nobody said anything of the sort.

Sisohiv wrote:
And you are going to find I make it easy to shoot holes in every thing I write. it helps me to establish who is being contrary for the sake of contrary.

"I'm doing this intentionally, I swear."
Yeah okay, we believe you.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#253 - 2014-07-13 16:14:09 UTC
Sisohiv wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Sisohiv wrote:

Petty spite is the motive behind most of EVE activity. It doesn't help EVE either but I don't see how CCP can nerf spite.


Yeah mining and missioning and FW and Market Trading and ship spinning are all driven by spite, confirmed



According to moontani and his hit squad, those aren't EVE though. Those are the activities of the evil carebears that would destroy EVE.

And you are going to find I make it easy to shoot holes in every thing I write. it helps me to establish who is being contrary for the sake of contrary.


So... you DONT think that petty spite is the motive for most of EvE activity, even though that was your point?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#254 - 2014-07-13 16:22:05 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Most player corps are interested in teaching new players about HOW THEY play the game more than HOW TO play the game.

NPC corps won't teach new players how to play the game at all.
Of course player corps yeah new players how they play the game. Why do you think is this a bad thing? Players join corps that do the things they want to do, so ipso facto those player corps teach them about what they want to learn. Don't like it? Join another corp.

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
And, when you're in a player corp, especially one in unsecure space, those other players in your corp can just kill you if you don't submit and conform to their playstyles. A newbie who can't fend off a ganker or griefer in high sec sure isn't going to have much to say 5-10 jumps into low sec or 30 jumps into null when one of his "superiors" tells him to do something he doesn't want to. You may not realize it, goon, but not everyone wants to be one of your peons, and forcing that on them might actually make them not want to log in or resubscribe.

You should probably re-read the suggestions then.

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Putting new players in a noob-corp exposes them to other noobs who they can interact with on a level playing field and maybe even learn from eachothers' mistakes and form social groups with. And, not all of the older characters are "throwaways" or cyno-alts.

This. Doesn't. Happen. It wasn't my experience, it wasn't my friend's experience, and it wasn't the experience of anyone else I've ever spoken to. It doesn't appear to be the experience of anyone given what's on these forums.

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Did Goonwaffe conduct a poll? How do you know the demographic makeup of every noob-corp?

It's really not hard to deduce and extrapolate.

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Let's face it. Noobs have a hard time in EVE because killing, scamming, griefing them, etc. is like shooting fish in a barrel. Many of the suggestions you people are fielding are essentially that we take away their barrel.

Then it seems you don't understand them.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#255 - 2014-07-13 16:23:41 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
The NPE should insist on the newly minted newbie leaving the newbie corporation. No more of this newbie forever silliness disguised as being a helping hand.

And, how does that help them to learn about the game or bounce back from early failures?


'Vet' players still in noob corps only serve one purpose, to misinform new players.

Any new player would learn far more by just getting out of the kiddie pool.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Dave stark
#256 - 2014-07-13 16:27:00 UTC
Val'Dore wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
The NPE should insist on the newly minted newbie leaving the newbie corporation. No more of this newbie forever silliness disguised as being a helping hand.

And, how does that help them to learn about the game or bounce back from early failures?


'Vet' players still in noob corps only serve one purpose, to misinform new players.

Any new player would learn far more by just getting out of the kiddie pool.


or they're a miner, who has 0 reason to ever leave the npc corp.
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#257 - 2014-07-13 16:30:05 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Sisohiv wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Sisohiv wrote:

Petty spite is the motive behind most of EVE activity. It doesn't help EVE either but I don't see how CCP can nerf spite.


Yeah mining and missioning and FW and Market Trading and ship spinning are all driven by spite, confirmed



According to moontani and his hit squad, those aren't EVE though. Those are the activities of the evil carebears that would destroy EVE.

And you are going to find I make it easy to shoot holes in every thing I write. it helps me to establish who is being contrary for the sake of contrary.


So... you DONT think that petty spite is the motive for most of EvE activity, even though that was your point?


I do think all things in EVE are rooted in petty spite. It's a video game that is based on blowing other peoples stuff up and most of the time with no real motive. All you showed were the steps to get to that end. EVE is still very much a game of petty and spite.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#258 - 2014-07-13 16:34:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Most player corps are much smaller than most NPC corps, even accepting your premise that most of the characters in NPC corps are "not real" or whatever.

Most player corps are interested in teaching new players about HOW THEY play the game more than HOW TO play the game. And, when you're in a player corp, especially one in unsecure space, those other players in your corp can just kill you if you don't submit and conform to their playstyles. A newbie who can't fend off a ganker or griefer in high sec sure isn't going to have much to say 5-10 jumps into low sec or 30 jumps into null when one of his "superiors" tells him to do something he doesn't want to. You may not realize it, goon, but not everyone wants to be one of your peons, and forcing that on them might actually make them not want to log in or resubscribe.

Putting new players in a noob-corp exposes them to other noobs who they can interact with on a level playing field and maybe even learn from eachothers' mistakes and form social groups with. And, not all of the older characters are "throwaways" or cyno-alts. .


What a load of bullshit. NPC corp chat is ridiculously toxic to new players, with brilliant advice like "don't ever leave hisec, just run missions." The people in NPC corps do more of that "teaching new players how THEY play the game" than anyone else.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#259 - 2014-07-13 16:35:13 UTC
Sisohiv wrote:


I do think all things in EVE are rooted in petty spite. It's a video game that is based on blowing other peoples stuff up and most of the time with no real motive. All you showed were the steps to get to that end. EVE is still very much a game of petty and spite.


So, to clarify, you believe those things are virtues in an EvE character? That being petty and spiteful help you in your in-game goals?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#260 - 2014-07-13 16:38:35 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
The NPE should insist on the newly minted newbie leaving the newbie corporation. No more of this newbie forever silliness disguised as being a helping hand.

And, how does that help them to learn about the game or bounce back from early failures?


'Vet' players still in noob corps only serve one purpose, to misinform new players.

Any new player would learn far more by just getting out of the kiddie pool.


or they're a miner, who has 0 reason to ever leave the npc corp.


If that were true, I'd actually see miners in npc corps. Its a rare sight for me.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide