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NPE: Eliminate Intra-Corp Awoxing so Corps Will Recruit New Players
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stoicfaux
#1 - 2014-07-12 14:13:23 UTC
Problem: Awoxing in high-sec crops discourages corps from recruiting new players (due to trust issues, i.e. awoxers in sheep's clothing) which reduces EVE new player retention.

Proposed Solution: Remove the rule that allows corp members to kill each other without CONCORD, etc., repercussions in high-sec. Corp member on corp member combat can happen via the current dueling mechanics, so intra-corp awoxing is redundant.

Source: http://themittani.com/content/traffic-control-newbie-zone
Quote:

Once you get out into the wider world, our new players need to join a social group. Except that hisec corporations are skittish about letting 'new players' join because of hisec awoxing: griefers such as my own space-tribe joining a corporation and then murderzoning the membership through a loophole in Concord enforcement - you can join a corp and attack anyone in your own corporation, even in hisec. Here's another sacred cow to slaughter: hisec awoxing is absolutely stupid from a business and retention perspective as it disincentivizes players from reaching out to genuine confused newbies. The dueling mechanic completely removes the 'need' for corp members to shoot one another outside of Concord enforcement.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#2 - 2014-07-12 14:26:16 UTC
already supported a post about allowing this to be a tic-box option, maybe even for particular members,
but yes - this one-size-fits-all, let everybody kill their corpies in HS needs to go
either that - or allow awoxing in npc corps

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#3 - 2014-07-12 14:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaerakh
stoicfaux wrote:
Problem: Awoxing in high-sec crops discourages corps from recruiting new players (due to trust issues, i.e. awoxers in sheep's clothing) which reduces EVE new player retention.

Proposed Solution: Remove the rule that allows corp members to kill each other without CONCORD, etc., repercussions in high-sec. Corp member on corp member combat can happen via the current dueling mechanics, so intra-corp awoxing is redundant.

Source: http://themittani.com/content/traffic-control-newbie-zone
Quote:

Once you get out into the wider world, our new players need to join a social group. Except that hisec corporations are skittish about letting 'new players' join because of hisec awoxing: griefers such as my own space-tribe joining a corporation and then murderzoning the membership through a loophole in Concord enforcement - you can join a corp and attack anyone in your own corporation, even in hisec. Here's another sacred cow to slaughter: hisec awoxing is absolutely stupid from a business and retention perspective as it disincentivizes players from reaching out to genuine confused newbies. The dueling mechanic completely removes the 'need' for corp members to shoot one another outside of Concord enforcement.




Or you could do basic screenings and introduce newbies to basic API checks. Employment history alone should give you a ball park estimate on SP, and API requirements are hardly anything new and quite common. You wouldn't believe how easy it is to filter out a majority of undesirables with a full access API. Any player that has a problem with giving out their API either doesn't understand how an API works or isn't a desired part of your team.

So in essence.

Edit: Can't believe I forgot this. Killboards, killboards, killboards. Perhaps your single most useful tool for gathering intel.

Schrodinger's Hot Dropper

The Fate of Forum Alts

Guaranteed Success
Dave Stark
#4 - 2014-07-12 15:19:27 UTC
to be honest, i'm not a fan of removing it.

i don't disagree that it's a good idea to get new players in to corps, however i think that if you're going to be lazy with your recruitment it should bite you in the ass.
and i think that actions having consequences is more important.

the reason awoxing is such an issue isn't because you can shoot corp mates - it's because you can shoot corp mates, and they can get an unbreakable amount of reps from logistics ships that you can't shoot without getting concorded leaving you in a lose-lose situation.

dealing with awoxers would be substantially easier, and almost trivial, if they weren't invincible due to the the concord protected t1 logi ships that can turn even a simple cruiser in to a literally unstoppable killing machine.
Christopher Tsutola
State Navy
#5 - 2014-07-12 15:26:53 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
to be honest, i'm not a fan of removing it.

i don't disagree that it's a good idea to get new players in to corps, however i think that if you're going to be lazy with your recruitment it should bite you in the ass.
and i think that actions having consequences is more important.

the reason awoxing is such an issue isn't because you can shoot corp mates - it's because you can shoot corp mates, and they can get an unbreakable amount of reps from logistics ships that you can't shoot without getting concorded leaving you in a lose-lose situation.

dealing with awoxers would be substantially easier, and almost trivial, if they weren't invincible due to the the concord protected t1 logi ships that can turn even a simple cruiser in to a literally unstoppable killing machine.



and this could be easily fixed by giving a logi a suspect timer if it reps anyone with a weapons timer.
Dave Stark
#6 - 2014-07-12 15:27:51 UTC
Christopher Tsutola wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
to be honest, i'm not a fan of removing it.

i don't disagree that it's a good idea to get new players in to corps, however i think that if you're going to be lazy with your recruitment it should bite you in the ass.
and i think that actions having consequences is more important.

the reason awoxing is such an issue isn't because you can shoot corp mates - it's because you can shoot corp mates, and they can get an unbreakable amount of reps from logistics ships that you can't shoot without getting concorded leaving you in a lose-lose situation.

dealing with awoxers would be substantially easier, and almost trivial, if they weren't invincible due to the the concord protected t1 logi ships that can turn even a simple cruiser in to a literally unstoppable killing machine.



and this could be easily fixed by giving a logi a suspect timer if it reps anyone with a weapons timer.


it could be fixed simply in many ways. the point though, isn't that awoxing is an issue, it's the fact that other mechanics make it such that it can be abused so badly.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#7 - 2014-07-12 15:32:12 UTC
Corps arent that afraid of AWOXing. They are aware of it, and cautious, but not to the extent that they deny new players employment even if they submit a full api.

Its not the issue u null seccers think it is.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#8 - 2014-07-12 15:57:57 UTC
I see no reason to restrict a player's freedom of choice. If I'm in a small gang and I see a couple old friends in the opposing small gang I'm about to engage, they should have the option to decide to turn coat in a rather dramatic fashion if they aren't happy with their current bedfellows and I should have the option to try and encourage this with a little compensation.

Awoxing, from my experience, is typically a result of poor corp management. Either the player wasn't screened properly before they let him in or something about the management has pissed the player off to the point that they need to vent some frustration before they leave. Corp members should be encouraged to improve the way they help and interact with each other. Friendly fire is effective at communicating disgruntlement, even if the cause of the disgruntlement isn't always part of the communication.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#9 - 2014-07-12 17:15:26 UTC
No. This is EvE Online, not themepark carebear Online.

Don't like the game, don't play the game, their are alot of other games that suit you better.

The Tears Must Flow
Dave Stark
#10 - 2014-07-12 17:21:48 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
No. This is EvE Online, not themepark carebear Online.

Don't like the game, don't play the game, their are alot of other games that suit you better.


you are aware how neutral logi works while awoxing right?

you are aware of how stupid that is? and how broken it is? and that there's no justification for why it should have ever been that way to begin with, much less keeping it that way?

or are you just going to paste "go bk 2 wow" in every thread?
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#11 - 2014-07-12 17:30:55 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
No. This is EvE Online, not themepark carebear Online.

Don't like the game, don't play the game, their are alot of other games that suit you better.


you are aware how neutral logi works while awoxing right?

you are aware of how stupid that is? and how broken it is? and that there's no justification for why it should have ever been that way to begin with, much less keeping it that way?

or are you just going to paste "go bk 2 wow" in every thread?


Cry more please. The more people like you cry, the better.

The Tears Must Flow
Dave Stark
#12 - 2014-07-12 17:34:47 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
No. This is EvE Online, not themepark carebear Online.

Don't like the game, don't play the game, their are alot of other games that suit you better.


you are aware how neutral logi works while awoxing right?

you are aware of how stupid that is? and how broken it is? and that there's no justification for why it should have ever been that way to begin with, much less keeping it that way?

or are you just going to paste "go bk 2 wow" in every thread?


Cry more please. The more people like you cry, the better.


i'm not crying. i'm just pointing out how uneducated and wrong you are. the fact that you haven't answered a single one of my question quite adequately demonstrates you haven't got a clue about the topic being discussed and are doing far more crying than I am.

some one suggested something that might improve the game? better throw my rattle out of the pram and tell them to go back to wow!
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#13 - 2014-07-12 17:35:31 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
No. This is EvE Online, not themepark carebear Online.

Don't like the game, don't play the game, their are alot of other games that suit you better.


you are aware how neutral logi works while awoxing right?

you are aware of how stupid that is? and how broken it is? and that there's no justification for why it should have ever been that way to begin with, much less keeping it that way?

or are you just going to paste "go bk 2 wow" in every thread?


Cry more please. The more people like you cry, the better.


i'm not crying. i'm just pointing out how uneducated and wrong you are. the fact that you haven't answered a single one of my question quite adequately demonstrates you haven't got a clue about the topic being discussed and are doing far more crying than I am.

some one suggested something that might improve the game? better throw my rattle out of the pram and tell them to go back to wow!


Im not wrong, you are. It's that simple.

The Tears Must Flow
Dave Stark
#14 - 2014-07-12 17:36:50 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
No. This is EvE Online, not themepark carebear Online.

Don't like the game, don't play the game, their are alot of other games that suit you better.


you are aware how neutral logi works while awoxing right?

you are aware of how stupid that is? and how broken it is? and that there's no justification for why it should have ever been that way to begin with, much less keeping it that way?

or are you just going to paste "go bk 2 wow" in every thread?


Cry more please. The more people like you cry, the better.


i'm not crying. i'm just pointing out how uneducated and wrong you are. the fact that you haven't answered a single one of my question quite adequately demonstrates you haven't got a clue about the topic being discussed and are doing far more crying than I am.

some one suggested something that might improve the game? better throw my rattle out of the pram and tell them to go back to wow!


Im not wrong, you are. It's that simple.


so i'm wrong that awoxing is fine? perhaps you should go back to wow.
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#15 - 2014-07-12 17:39:20 UTC
It's not like this will entirely prevent awoxing, merely apply the consequences you get for attempting to gank in hisec normally- a CONCORD response. Freedom of choice remains, but sensible consequences are introduced.

I do think a check box to opt into intra-corp violence is a sensible addition- may be useful for webbing freighters without having to 'duel' the webbers, corp tourneys, etc. The default should be off, though.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#16 - 2014-07-12 18:18:32 UTC
Is someone really not recruiting new people because they might fire on their own corp mates? From my experience the issue that prevents recruiting is certainly lack of trust, but it has little to do with awoxing. The bigger issues are centered around corp management. It's simply bad. It's a confusing mess to try to make sense out of and it's hard to get a good overall working system by using it. The main problem is, that you need give some kind of roles to people to keep things functioning smoothly, but giving those roles lets them do things you don't want to allow them to do. If you don't spread the responsibility, you pile up too much burden on too few shoulders and burn out the few people you trust. I feel a lot of the problems with trust could be fixed by simply redoing corporation roles and management. Basically rebuild it with low trust recruiting, ease of management and corporate safety as priorities.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#17 - 2014-07-12 18:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
already supported a post about allowing this to be a tic-box option, ....

Can n you link it ?

I would also support a checkbox in this fashion, either only for the CEO excluded from the 'to be able to shoot' list or for him to set them for the members.
I also have trouble with recruiting beginners, for the moment the only option is to create and Alt, set him as CEO and move all trustworthy and at risk player to a neutral corp. Kind of silly and constricting to not have that control option in your corp.

Everyone always comes with the risk/reward intel/counterintel hammer, but in this case everyone seems to forget how low risk, investment it is to awox. With this option, the awoxer still can trick and betray corp members, but does have to put some time and effort into it.

And please don't come with researching every 1 day char you are trying to collect ... this will be a lot of unnecessary and pointless work for every corp that just wants to help beginners - don't forget, most of that effort is voluntary without any reward.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2014-07-12 18:33:55 UTC
We already have NPC corps for risk averse highsec players and you can't shoot each other.

Discourage players from joining player corps until they're ready for areas outside of highsec, not remove features to create Space WoW.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2014-07-12 19:25:46 UTC
Freighter webbing without announcing it would be annoying needing to use duels. I suppose one could just keep the LE going but....should mention.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#20 - 2014-07-12 21:16:42 UTC
Yeah, no. For two reasons.

First being that there are plenty of reasons to be suspicious of a new player besides awoxing. Spy and corp thief being chief among them. All this would do is make highsec more safe, which is not something that needs to happen, ever.

The other reason the answer is no is as follows:

This is not actually a problem. As a prolific awoxer, I have absolutely zero trouble actually getting into a corp due to my character's status as a "new player". The supposition that being a new character somehow causes any real issues getting into a player corp is completely false.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
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