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Restrict NPC Corporation Posting Abilities.

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#801 - 2014-07-08 22:47:04 UTC
Dally Lama wrote:
This idea won't force people to post with their mains.

It will make it so people waste a slot creating a permanent forum alt.
or
It will make it so people who otherwise would have posted cease posting


Either result is fine. Like I said, even the small barrier to entry provided by CAOD has worked wonders. I believe that is an example that bears further development.

Quote:

Secondly it's not really fair to high sec players, due to war mechanics.


That's fine too, and if I interpret the OP correctly that's part of the intent.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#802 - 2014-07-08 22:53:20 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Kaarous, we saw eye to eye on one of the worst threads I've ever seen in F&I - these proposals wouldn't have stopped the main protagonist(s) there.

Is it really worth trading all the good posters living in npc/low headcount homes? All in the name of a phyrric victory against trolls? When demonstrable value in NPC posters has been seen and proven; when all this needs is empowered moderation?

The irony is I'm not even that liberal, but the losses (admittedly for me) outweigh gains. I can ignore a douchbag post - I'm less easily afford the loss of the likes of stoicfaux, chribba to name a couple.


As far as "empowered moderation" goes, I would argue against it. The ISDs are players. I do not want a player, even a volunteer, to have any actionable power against another player.

If people think this idea is "tyranny" or "dictatorship" or whatever, just wait until we open that particular box.

And we all know that CCP, having just fired about a third of their staff, does not have the numbers to actually police the forums themselves. The OP's proposal is just applying one of the few remaining principles we can use to combat the problem.

But in regards to the good posting NPC corp players (yourself among them, and the others you mentioned), if you really want your voices heard, and want to discuss topics, the barrier for entry is really freaking low. It does not stop, nor is it intended to stop people who legitimately want to get their message out.

But as CAOD has demonstrated, even that small barrier to entry is sufficient to deter the kind of people who shouldn't be posting in the first place.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#803 - 2014-07-08 23:11:59 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
As far as "empowered moderation" goes, I would argue against it. The ISDs are players. I do not want a player, even a volunteer, to have any actionable power against another player.

If people think this idea is "tyranny" or "dictatorship" or whatever, just wait until we open that particular box.

And we all know that CCP, having just fired about a third of their staff, does not have the numbers to actually police the forums themselves. The OP's proposal is just applying one of the few remaining principles we can use to combat the problem.

But in regards to the good posting NPC corp players (yourself among them, and the others you mentioned), if you really want your voices heard, and want to discuss topics, the barrier for entry is really freaking low. It does not stop, nor is it intended to stop people who legitimately want to get their message out.

But as CAOD has demonstrated, even that small barrier to entry is sufficient to deter the kind of people who shouldn't be posting in the first place.
Empowered moderation, regardless of employee or volunteer, is the only lasting solution to the issue of trolling. If CCP can't afford it internally and the volunteer mods can't be trusted to do it then we're just bandaging a self inflicted wound with the suggested.

Also the problem with the solution of a perceivably low barrier is that it is ineffective against those characters that only exist to post but highly effective to playing characters that have chosen to live in NPC or low player count corps. Essentially "Trolly McTroll" just needs 1 extra step to post but "legit NPC player" needs to either compromise play to post or start "Trolly McTroll2" and actually lose any sense of accountability or reputation they may have to resume posting posting.
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#804 - 2014-07-09 03:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
It's not big enough of a problem to warrant this particular change, considering there are aplenty non-trolling NPC posters.
*Snip* Please refrain from discussing forum moderation. ISD Ezwal.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#805 - 2014-07-09 23:11:01 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Empowered moderation, regardless of employee or volunteer, is the only lasting solution to the issue of trolling. If CCP can't afford it internally and the volunteer mods can't be trusted to do it then we're just bandaging a self inflicted wound with the suggested.

Also the problem with the solution of a perceivably low barrier is that it is ineffective against those characters that only exist to post but highly effective to playing characters that have chosen to live in NPC or low player count corps. Essentially "Trolly McTroll" just needs 1 extra step to post but "legit NPC player" needs to either compromise play to post or start "Trolly McTroll2" and actually lose any sense of accountability or reputation they may have to resume posting posting.


I am happy my thread survived my absence.

Empowered moderation isn't the silver bullet for the problem however as humans are just as easily fooled as machines. It takes the two working in concert to handle the problem. Small things like letting ISD's hand out 24 hour gags would, in combination with my suggestion, do wonders to improve forum quality.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Dhaq
Doomheim
#806 - 2014-07-10 01:59:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dhaq
People keep talking about improving the forum quality, but as one other person already noted these forums are one the better ones there is. It is a solution to a problem that really doesn't exist. The restrictions on the CAOD forums makes since because it's a forum about.. Corps, Alliances, and Organizations. This idea is just silly though. The only people this will affect will be new players that don't meet the criteria and do not know any better.

If it goes into effect, all someone has to do is create an Anonymous Posters corp. Then hop over to the recruitment forum and say, "Hey guys here is a safe place to put your posting refugee." And nothing has changed. Or are we not allowed to post there as well unless we have a certain number of members? That would be a hoot wouldn't it.

Maybe we should have different criteria for each sub-forum. Please expand upon your idea and take each sub-forum and list the size of the corporation a player would need to be in to post. At the moment you are just using broad strokes and generalities, which I think makes it a little hard for some of us to get behind.

I'm glad you are back though and I hope you had a wonderful vacation.

Edit: a word
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#807 - 2014-07-10 15:33:27 UTC
Dhaq wrote:
People keep talking about improving the forum quality, but as one other person already noted these forums are one the better ones there is. It is a solution to a problem that really doesn't exist. The restrictions on the CAOD forums makes since because it's a forum about.. Corps, Alliances, and Organizations. This idea is just silly though. The only people this will affect will be new players that don't meet the criteria and do not know any better.

If it goes into effect, all someone has to do is create an Anonymous Posters corp. Then hop over to the recruitment forum and say, "Hey guys here is a safe place to put your posting refugee." And nothing has changed. Or are we not allowed to post there as well unless we have a certain number of members? That would be a hoot wouldn't it.

Maybe we should have different criteria for each sub-forum. Please expand upon your idea and take each sub-forum and list the size of the corporation a player would need to be in to post. At the moment you are just using broad strokes and generalities, which I think makes it a little hard for some of us to get behind.

I'm glad you are back though and I hope you had a wonderful vacation.

Edit: a word


CCP asked how they could improve forum quality before and this is the answer to it. I've been here frequently enough to notice that as the npc alts increase forum quality decreases hence this suggestion. The suggestion accounts for new players so that's a non-issue. I agree with you that npc corporations are not organizations of any sort and should not be extended the privileges organizations are granted. They should also not enjoy a gratuitous amount of advantages over player organizations to the point they can freely run the forum quality into the ground with no consequence to themselves.

Part of the point of the suggestion is that its not a herculean effort to meet the criteria of posting. Yes its an effort to get 10+ people but, it is also not a miraculous occurrence to the point only a handful of people would be able to post. I use this specific idea because we have historical evidence that it works well.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#808 - 2014-07-10 16:01:06 UTC
La Nariz wrote:

Part of the point of the suggestion is that its not a herculean effort to meet the criteria of posting. Yes its an effort to get 10+ people but, it is also not a miraculous occurrence to the point only a handful of people would be able to post. I use this specific idea because we have historical evidence that it works well.


And once you ban the NPC and all the trolls are in the 10 corps, you will ask for that group of people to be banned from the forums as well. If this goes, then in the end, only groups you approve of will be allowed in the forums. Then you could work on the banned people not being able to vote for the CSM.

"Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you."
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#809 - 2014-07-10 21:56:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaari Inkuran
It works for COAD because the very nature of competition for recruits encourages defacement of each other's efforts through anonymous trolling. This is in no way similar to the other forums which neither have the issue to even remotely the same degree, nor the same force driving trolling itself. There's no reason to apply a last-ditch blanket restriction. No reason exists. Trolling is not extensive enough for it to be a legitimate reason.
Edit: now if we had a forum dedicated to nullsec the way there's one for wormholes, you'd see COAD again.
Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#810 - 2014-07-11 16:17:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Since your definition of constructive is to agree with the silencing of everyone in NPC corps, and I am against that then by your definition nothing I say will be considered constructive. But then the target of my arguments is not you or your supporters but to the owners of the forums, CCP.

Your base argument is everyone in NPC is to be silenced. Their voices on the forum are to removed. Are the to be removed because they disagree, the do not follow you or because you do not like them. That does not matter because you want them removed. With a removal of part of the population of Eve, the other social-economic groups left will have a large voice on the forums. *Snip* Removed off topic part of the post. ISD Ezwal.

As for the grr Goons, Mittani has stated several times,"...our purpose in this game is to ruin everything they find fun or enjoyable about Eve." - Mittani

The way that you have been taking to people and replying is right out of the book Age of Propaganda, a book that is recommended for reading on the internal forums of your group, and especially for the members of your group that wages the meta warfare on the forums.

*Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.

On the plus side, this is only a game, so even if you silence a portion of the population or ruin the game, it is only in the game.

"Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you."
Nonnak Severin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#811 - 2014-07-11 16:23:12 UTC
La Nariz wrote:

A commonly suggested alternative: Restrict posting to the highest SP character on the account.
---
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Restrict forum posting to one character per player
Something no-one seems to be in support of, but I'm starting to lean towards. CCP have been asking people to link their accounts via email/RL info, there's no reason they can't ask us to select one character across all our accounts to be authorised to post on the forums. Character bazaar being the only exception for sellers. I know this can be bypassed with false info and multiple email addresses, and I know it would kill certain types of meta. Not sure I care, there are plenty of player run forums people can mask their identity on.


This neatly sidesteps the entire discussion around excluding new players, takes significantly more effort/isk to violate, and would generally produce a far more favorable posting environment.

+1 this proposal only.
Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#812 - 2014-07-11 16:27:58 UTC
Nonnak Severin wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

A commonly suggested alternative: Restrict posting to the highest SP character on the account.
---
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Restrict forum posting to one character per player
Something no-one seems to be in support of, but I'm starting to lean towards. CCP have been asking people to link their accounts via email/RL info, there's no reason they can't ask us to select one character across all our accounts to be authorised to post on the forums. Character bazaar being the only exception for sellers. I know this can be bypassed with false info and multiple email addresses, and I know it would kill certain types of meta. Not sure I care, there are plenty of player run forums people can mask their identity on.


This neatly sidesteps the entire discussion around excluding new players, takes significantly more effort/isk to violate, and would generally produce a far more favorable posting environment.

+1 this proposal only.


+1. This does not silence people, just their alts.

"Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you."
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#813 - 2014-07-11 23:09:01 UTC
After reading many of the posts in this thread two things have become obvious:

1. Pilots in player corps are no less likely to troll a thread, even a thread they made about stopping trolling.

2. What one person sees as trolling is often nothing more than an stance that person finds objectionable.

Therefore, in the interests of ridding ourselves of trolls let us just shut the forums down.

(p.s. If you are planning on pointing out that statement two applies to me with regards to statement one, thank you for pointing out what I hoped was an obvious allusion to myself as well as an indirect reference to many others including the OP.)

And God help you if you came away from my post thinking I propose shuttering the forums.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#814 - 2014-07-12 00:32:24 UTC
Argue against the points being raised, not the person raising those points.

If you can't, in a logical and calm manner, refute the points being raised by an npc dude, then that npc dude's opinions are no less valid than your own for being in an npc corp.
Nonnak Severin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#815 - 2014-07-12 01:11:30 UTC
Elfi Wolfe wrote:
Nonnak Severin wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

A commonly suggested alternative: Restrict posting to the highest SP character on the account.
---
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Restrict forum posting to one character per player
Something no-one seems to be in support of, but I'm starting to lean towards. CCP have been asking people to link their accounts via email/RL info, there's no reason they can't ask us to select one character across all our accounts to be authorised to post on the forums. Character bazaar being the only exception for sellers. I know this can be bypassed with false info and multiple email addresses, and I know it would kill certain types of meta. Not sure I care, there are plenty of player run forums people can mask their identity on.


This neatly sidesteps the entire discussion around excluding new players, takes significantly more effort/isk to violate, and would generally produce a far more favorable posting environment.

+1 this proposal only.


+1. This does not silence people, just their alts.



And that alt silencing is the important part.

Sure, if you have multiple accounts, you get multiple voices - you paid for them.

But one account, one voice.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#816 - 2014-07-12 01:29:13 UTC
Implying anything will stop people from shitposting if they want to shitpost.

I'm fine with whatever changes because they wont affect me.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Dally Lama
Doomheim
#817 - 2014-07-12 09:24:10 UTC
Nonnak Severin wrote:
Elfi Wolfe wrote:
Nonnak Severin wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

A commonly suggested alternative: Restrict posting to the highest SP character on the account.
---
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Restrict forum posting to one character per player
Something no-one seems to be in support of, but I'm starting to lean towards. CCP have been asking people to link their accounts via email/RL info, there's no reason they can't ask us to select one character across all our accounts to be authorised to post on the forums. Character bazaar being the only exception for sellers. I know this can be bypassed with false info and multiple email addresses, and I know it would kill certain types of meta. Not sure I care, there are plenty of player run forums people can mask their identity on.


This neatly sidesteps the entire discussion around excluding new players, takes significantly more effort/isk to violate, and would generally produce a far more favorable posting environment.

+1 this proposal only.


+1. This does not silence people, just their alts.



And that alt silencing is the important part.

Sure, if you have multiple accounts, you get multiple voices - you paid for them.

But one account, one voice.

Trial accounts. We cannot block new prospective players from posting.

Let alone how disastrous this would be for people who have alts that actually need the forum, for trading and things of that sort.

New Fitting Window | Distances above 10km | Maximums for buy orders
Dhaq
Doomheim
#818 - 2014-07-12 16:38:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Dhaq
Well unless someone can provide some hard numbers on how much "quality" this change can provide, I personally don't see a point in it. Using CAOD as an example is a bit misleading. In a meta-game of corps/alliances ****-posting and sperging one other, of course there is going to be a lot of ****-posting and troll posts.

When looking at the post from NPC alts and from ones player corps, I'm not really seeing a big difference in the quality to tell you the truth. There are good and bad on both sides. So from my point of view, this change would only do more harm than good. And until we have any kind of real data, this discussion is just opinion vs opinion with nothing to back it up.

Forums that continually try to restrict activity in the name of "quality" generally do not fair well. Neither do those that let posters run wild. There has to be a decent balance, and I think these forums have those right now.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#819 - 2014-07-12 17:14:32 UTC
Make this happen, or at least make it possible check all the pilot names of that account.

The Tears Must Flow
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#820 - 2014-07-12 17:16:52 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Make this happen, or at least make it possible check all the pilot names of that account.


This would be a good change, when posting list all of the characters on that account. It makes posting alts completely useless.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133