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Question about buy orders
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Oscar Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-07-10 12:56:40 UTC
If there is a buy order for an item that says there is a minimum of 5. Is The price listed is for each item, or for the total of 5 items?
Elmonky
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-07-10 13:06:30 UTC
Oscar Belvar wrote:
If there is a buy order for an item that says there is a minimum of 5. Is The price listed is for each item, or for the total of 5 items?



Per item my friend!

Typically this is a very easy way to scam someone
Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#3 - 2014-07-10 13:07:09 UTC
The price listed is per item.

And if the price listed is somehow unusual - i.e. significantly above the price other buyers are offering - it's also a scam.
Or to rephrase this: if you think you can make big profit from such an order you're about to be robbed blind.
Oscar Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-07-10 13:12:47 UTC
Yeah im thinking i see a way to make money.... But maybe i should just stay away from it lol.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#5 - 2014-07-10 13:22:09 UTC
Oscar Belvar wrote:
Yeah im thinking i see a way to make money.... But maybe i should just stay away from it lol.


that would be for the best.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-07-10 13:48:46 UTC
in case you are wondering: there is a skill called Margin Trading. this skill lets you put up buy orders with money you don't have. this can be useful for honest traders because they can often be sure that by the time someone sells to their buy order, they will have sold enough other things to be able to pay up. however, if the buyer does not have enough cash at the time the sale happens, the buy order is cancelled and the seller keeps his items.
now, if you are a less than honest individual, you could go ahead and pick a really rare item that sounds valuable but really isn't (such as many officer modules), buy it up across all of eve for cheap and but up overpriced sell orders and even more overpriced buy orders. you goal is to encourage greedy and ignorant people to buy your overpriced item in the hope to sell it back to you for a profit. in reality, your buy order will fail and the mark is stuck with useless items that he bought for 100x what they are worth.

I should buy an Ishtar.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2014-07-10 15:12:16 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
in case you are wondering: there is a skill called Margin Trading. this skill lets you put up buy orders with money you don't have. this can be useful for honest traders because they can often be sure that by the time someone sells to their buy order, they will have sold enough other things to be able to pay up. however, if the buyer does not have enough cash at the time the sale happens, the buy order is cancelled and the seller keeps his items.
now, if you are a less than honest individual, you could go ahead and pick a really rare item that sounds valuable but really isn't (such as many officer modules), buy it up across all of eve for cheap and but up overpriced sell orders and even more overpriced buy orders. you goal is to encourage greedy and ignorant people to buy your overpriced item in the hope to sell it back to you for a profit. in reality, your buy order will fail and the mark is stuck with useless items that he bought for 100x what they are worth.


The lesson here is that the market in Eve is as much PvP as ship to ship combat. Trading in rare items requires research and knowledge of the market history of that item. People who think they are about to make a killing quickly are usually the ones getting burned.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Vincenzo Arbosa
Locust Assets
#8 - 2014-07-10 15:30:32 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
in case you are wondering: there is a skill called Margin Trading. this skill lets you put up buy orders with money you don't have. this can be useful for honest traders because they can often be sure that by the time someone sells to their buy order, they will have sold enough other things to be able to pay up. however, if the buyer does not have enough cash at the time the sale happens, the buy order is cancelled and the seller keeps his items.
now, if you are a less than honest individual, you could go ahead and pick a really rare item that sounds valuable but really isn't (such as many officer modules), buy it up across all of eve for cheap and but up overpriced sell orders and even more overpriced buy orders. you goal is to encourage greedy and ignorant people to buy your overpriced item in the hope to sell it back to you for a profit. in reality, your buy order will fail and the mark is stuck with useless items that he bought for 100x what they are worth.


I got rolled for a decent sum when I first started by someone using this exact technique. It is what initially piqued my interest in station and region trading. I wish I could remember the name of the module, however I did end up keeping one of them as a "trophy" and souvenir. Despite being 'took', it is still a fond memory and reminder of the reality of Eve. If it is too good to be true, get someone else to do it.



"Leave the gun. Take the cannoli." 
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#9 - 2014-07-10 16:01:13 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
in case you are wondering: there is a skill called Margin Trading. this skill lets you put up buy orders with money you don't have. this can be useful for honest traders because they can often be sure that by the time someone sells to their buy order, they will have sold enough other things to be able to pay up. however, if the buyer does not have enough cash at the time the sale happens, the buy order is cancelled and the seller keeps his items.


Personally, carebearly as it might be, I'd like to see orders placed with Margin Trading only visible if, at that exact moment, the buyer has enough money in hand. That wouldn't impact the honest use at all, but would eliminate this oddity where everything else on the market is what it says it is but some buy orders don't exist.

An alert scammer could still run the scam by waiting for the bait items to sell and shifting cash to an alt before the mark completes the transation.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#10 - 2014-07-10 16:38:43 UTC
Areen Sassel wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
in case you are wondering: there is a skill called Margin Trading. this skill lets you put up buy orders with money you don't have. this can be useful for honest traders because they can often be sure that by the time someone sells to their buy order, they will have sold enough other things to be able to pay up. however, if the buyer does not have enough cash at the time the sale happens, the buy order is cancelled and the seller keeps his items.


Personally, carebearly as it might be, I'd like to see orders placed with Margin Trading only visible if, at that exact moment, the buyer has enough money in hand. That wouldn't impact the honest use at all, but would eliminate this oddity where everything else on the market is what it says it is but some buy orders don't exist.

An alert scammer could still run the scam by waiting for the bait items to sell and shifting cash to an alt before the mark completes the transation.

at that point you may as well cancel the buy order. the main appeal of this particular scam is that it works 24/7, even if you ar enot online. hiding buy orders that are not covered seems like a nice idea at first, but it also has a lot of drawbacks for professional traders (and might not even be feasible, depending on how much more server load it produces).

I should buy an Ishtar.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-07-10 19:57:34 UTC
Oscar Belvar wrote:
Yeah im thinking i see a way to make money.... But maybe i should just stay away from it lol.


If it sounds too good to be true....it is.


Read up on margin trading scam.Twisted

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-07-10 20:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Areen Sassel wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
in case you are wondering: there is a skill called Margin Trading. this skill lets you put up buy orders with money you don't have. this can be useful for honest traders because they can often be sure that by the time someone sells to their buy order, they will have sold enough other things to be able to pay up. however, if the buyer does not have enough cash at the time the sale happens, the buy order is cancelled and the seller keeps his items.


Personally, carebearly as it might be, I'd like to see orders placed with Margin Trading only visible if, at that exact moment, the buyer has enough money in hand. That wouldn't impact the honest use at all, but would eliminate this oddity where everything else on the market is what it says it is but some buy orders don't exist.

An alert scammer could still run the scam by waiting for the bait items to sell and shifting cash to an alt before the mark completes the transation.


Uhm, how about....NO

You are asking for a safety feature to prevent your own stupidity.

EVE isn't handholding, it's about knowing your risks and calculate on your own if you are willing to take it.

What's next,

Auto delete contracts that have Carbon in it but are advertized as Charon?

Auto rejects trades that try to sell you a Raven for the price of a Navy Raven?


Scams are part of EVE, there should be NO safety feature other then common sense by a player against it.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
voetius
Grundrisse
#13 - 2014-07-10 20:57:34 UTC
Areen Sassel wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
in case you are wondering: there is a skill called Margin Trading. this skill lets you put up buy orders with money you don't have. this can be useful for honest traders because they can often be sure that by the time someone sells to their buy order, they will have sold enough other things to be able to pay up. however, if the buyer does not have enough cash at the time the sale happens, the buy order is cancelled and the seller keeps his items.


Personally, carebearly as it might be, I'd like to see orders placed with Margin Trading only visible if, at that exact moment, the buyer has enough money in hand. That wouldn't impact the honest use at all, but would eliminate this oddity where everything else on the market is what it says it is but some buy orders don't exist.

An alert scammer could still run the scam by waiting for the bait items to sell and shifting cash to an alt before the mark completes the transation.


There are two problems with what you propose:

Firstly, there is the server side impact, for people that have multiple trade alts with Margin Trading and Tycoon level skills, running 300 order slots per character of high turnover items, the server would need to check every time the wallet changed to see if there was sufficient isk available to cover the escrowed amount.

Secondly, "shifting cash" is not how it works. "Stealing the escrow" or "emptying the escrow out" is done shortly after the buy order(s) are placed by an alt of the person running the scam, although not all Margin scammers do this and it is possible to take the escrow if a) they are not aware of the mechanic and b) you happen to have enough of the rare items needed to do so and c) you can make the simple calculation of what value your sell order needs to be to steal the escrow.

There is a long and indepth discussion of this question in the old F&I post that Fozzie made to ask the community for thoughts on this that is worth looking up.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#14 - 2014-07-10 23:25:01 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
but it also has a lot of drawbacks for professional traders (and might not even be feasible, depending on how much more server load it produces).


It has no drawbacks for professional traders. They post buy orders to buy the goods. They have no interest in their buy orders appearing when they can't buy the goods.

The load argument is more valid, but really, if my wallet changes once a second and that causes a callback on 300 buy orders... a BBC Micro could keep up with that.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#15 - 2014-07-10 23:25:49 UTC
voetius wrote:

There is a long and indepth discussion of this question in the old F&I post that Fozzie made to ask the community for thoughts on this that is worth looking up.


I would be grateful if you could link to it.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#16 - 2014-07-11 04:04:40 UTC
For what it is worth, minimum order size 5 is not solely used for deceptive market PVP.

Non-deceptive market PVPers might use it too. As an example, let's say that I wanted to acquire a large number of Incognito Symmetry (an item used in invention that, prior to the discussions around the Crius release, was stable at 2.8-3.5m ISK).

Furthermore, let's say I want to buy them from all over my region, but not have 1s and 2s of them scattered everywhere.

I could then post a regionwide order with a minimum quantity of 5. Any stack sold to me will be worth the effort of collecting (or more likely, paying a useful idiot to collect for me through public courier contracts). The order is still market PVP, but it's non-deceptive PVP - what the order says is what it does.


The time that a mutliple item order is suspicious is when the item isn't traded much at all locally. Any buy order requiring a week's worth of regionwide turnover of the item is almost certainly an example of deceptive market PVP.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-07-11 07:59:14 UTC
Areen Sassel wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
but it also has a lot of drawbacks for professional traders (and might not even be feasible, depending on how much more server load it produces).


It has no drawbacks for professional traders. They post buy orders to buy the goods. They have no interest in their buy orders appearing when they can't buy the goods.

The load argument is more valid, but really, if my wallet changes once a second and that causes a callback on 300 buy orders... a BBC Micro could keep up with that.



You clearly lack the idea behind trading and margin trading.

Most traders put up sell orders and buy order. Usually they dont have the ISK for the buy orders until some sell orders are filled.

Thus with your stupid idea it would prevent a trader to set up their buy orders.

How hard is it for people to learn mechanics and dont be so greedy.
In my opinion it is working perfectly, as only the greedy people fall for it and they should.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
voetius
Grundrisse
#18 - 2014-07-11 08:25:17 UTC
Areen Sassel wrote:
voetius wrote:

There is a long and indepth discussion of this question in the old F&I post that Fozzie made to ask the community for thoughts on this that is worth looking up.


I would be grateful if you could link to it.


Hi again : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298037

warning, it's a long read :)
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#19 - 2014-07-11 14:53:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Areen Sassel wrote:
It has no drawbacks for professional traders. They post buy orders to buy the goods. They have no interest in their buy orders appearing when they can't buy the goods.

on the contrary, i have a very strong interest in my buy order appearing. not only does it telegraph to potential sellers what price i am willing to pay, it may also be used to encourage sales or forcing my competitors to overextend and operate at a loss or leave the market.

another disadvantage of your proposal: imagine two guys involved in a bidding war over an item. guy one knows that guy two can update his order in the next 30 seconds, so he 'hides' his own order by transferring cash away to an alt. guy two comes in, updates his order not knowing that guy one has an order that is even higher, but invisible. once guy one sees the updated order from two, he transfers money back to claim the lead again circumventing the 5 minute order update cooldown. now if guy two wants to succeed, he has to adapt the same strategy, resulting in a clusterfuck of shadow boxing and a clickfest for both parties.


Quote:
The load argument is more valid, but really, if my wallet changes once a second and that causes a callback on 300 buy orders... a BBC Micro could keep up with that.

except you are not the only trader in the region. the order table would have to be updated every time anyone who has at least one buy order in the region gains or loses isk, or alternatively any time anyone views the market details for an item. also consider that the backend is single-threaded and runes on one overclocked core per system (or group of systems).

I should buy an Ishtar.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#20 - 2014-07-11 17:16:34 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
another disadvantage of your proposal: imagine two guys involved in a bidding war over an item. guy one knows that guy two can update his order in the next 30 seconds, so he 'hides' his own order by transferring cash away to an alt.


Fair enough, that's a valid downside.

J'Poll wrote:
Most traders put up sell orders and buy order. Usually they dont have the ISK for the buy orders until some sell orders are filled.


I seriously doubt that, since I imagine most traders have plenty of capital. I suspect they have the ISK for some but not all of the buy orders, knowing that they are unlikely to all fill at once.

Quote:
Thus with your stupid idea it would prevent a trader to set up their buy orders.


No, it wouldn't. You could, at any time, place any buy order you can now.