These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

First post First post First post
Author
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#701 - 2014-07-11 07:30:21 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Smugest Sniper wrote:
I think people should know that capital proliferation is gonna get pretty sexy soon, as with coming changes it will be faster, cheaper, and easier to start building capitals for new people than ever before in Null-sec with the current changes to Amarr Outposts.

450mil or less Carriers at production cost.Twisted

Have a nice Day.


The 30% material reduction that's enab is a bug on sisi and won't be on live.

Have a nice Day.


Yet they still haven't posted what the real numbers are gonna be, and if it's going to be only 3%(which I've heard mentioned) It does not really seem all that beneficial between PoS or station, but we're shitting up Manni's thread but the issue still relevant.
Anthar Thebess
#702 - 2014-07-11 08:11:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Smugest Sniper wrote:
I think people should know that capital proliferation is gonna get pretty sexy soon, as with coming changes it will be faster, cheaper, and easier to start building capitals for new people than ever before in Null-sec with the current changes to Amarr Outposts.

450mil or less Carriers at production cost.Twisted

Have a nice Day.


THis is bug, read earlier posts.
There will be no 30% reduction in materials , but 30% reduction in time.

I hope it will never come to this that eve will be only caps ... and im saying this while having 4 capital pilots.

Other idea.
Remove jump drives from all capital ships except Jump Freighters.

Add 4th Rig slot to them, called drive management.
All installed modules are permanent .
Yes you can repackage those, but make this "rig" 150k m3 big , it will be using normal minerals.
This way repackaging will be not an option.
You have ability to install there :
- jump drive ( T1 / T2)
- jump drive gate optimization ( T1 / T2)
- reactive armour , ancillary shield capacitors ( T1 / T2) ( can be fitted only on stations)

What are the differences?

1. Jump drive
- it will allow ship to jump between systems.
- for carriers it will reduce ship maintenance bay by 50%, reduce shield / armor / hull to 30% of current levels , it will force using triage module to maximize reps at increased cycle time
- for dread it will force using siege modules at increased cycle time
- T2 version should be more expensive , and it will only have 10% increased jump range

2 . jump drive gate optimization
- ship cannot jump, well almost, it is jumping between gates at very reduced fuel usage.
- it have no drawbacks on defense , ships operate at current levels.

3. reactive armour , ancillary shield capacitors
- ship cannot jump any where , they are tied to a system
- carriers/dreads gain immense ehp boost while in siege/triage
- siege provides extreme tracking speed
- triage modules doubles or triples capacitor amount or repair amount
- titans , can mount jump portal generator or something like old AOE , but limited to 100 km in diameter.
- mother ships mini version of this weapon that will do 1/3 of damage
- etc

Summarizing, all capitals using jump drive will be mobile, but at expense of defensive capabilities.
Jump drive gate optimization will make capitals almost like now, but it forces them to travel by gates.
Last defensive upgrade , ties them to the system , but gives them immense EHP boost, firepower or options.

Capitals that we tie to system give this location immense defensive boost , and supers will make all blobs hard time .

The only thing that worries me , is how to prohibit this kind of capitals in the WH space , as there they will be just better way for farming sleepers.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#703 - 2014-07-11 09:43:18 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The goon tag under his name basically put a lot of salt on any opinion he states defendign the status quo. And no I ma not wrong, my ideas are well tough, maybe you are unabler to grasp them, but I can understand taht since I am far superior intellectaually (although challanged gramatically due to my dislexia) ina level that is hard to be understood by most.

holy dunning-krueger effect batman

also there is a cure for dyslexia, it is called "The Spell Checker That Exists In Every Modern Web Browser"

but i am sure that a genius-level intellect such as yourself didn't need to be told that



Spell checkers must be set to one language. When you need to deal with people in 4 different languages during the day you select the most important as the target of the checking. But I know that might be hard to understand to most people that think there is only 1 language in the world.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#704 - 2014-07-11 09:45:41 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Edited Op*

Arrow Deathclone changes to only closest station with dockable access or players birth system.


naaa Corp headquarters and birth station. Those re the ones LOGICAL targets.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#705 - 2014-07-11 09:48:57 UTC
Draahkness wrote:
It feels as if the discussion is now somewhat cirkular. I am going to end my involmenet in the thread by condensing the message we want to send to CCP.

1. Power projection in all it's forms needs a major nerf. EVE should be big and attacks very far from home should take many hours just in travel time. Some sort of revamp needs to be done to jump bridges, jump drives and clones. A new system, or an extension of an old system, is needed to allow small enteties to resupply even if they are far from empire.

2. In addition to allowing small amounts of supplies to be moved long distance more systems need to be in place to facilitate local production. More low-ends per hour in the belts. Dispersed tech2 materials rather then a few ultra-valuable moons. "Alchemy" to transform local ice products to other racial fuels.

3. Sovereignty needs a major overhaul. "Blocks of EHP" needs to be gone. Replaced by a system of "lived in sovereignty" - if you use the space you own it. Any rule that changes the amount of stars you can own however is bad, if people wants to have 11k big alliances it is their right.

I am ending with the note that the people I played with as a child managed to stomp FIX (before BoB helped them) and take space from the original NC despite severe numerical disadvantage - and barely any caps. I want a version of those days back too.



Everyone that played that better eve want it too.

All thos thigns you say.. are needed. But will not be enough. As long as we have no reason to not be part of the 2 super blocks, then the stagnation will continue ( one reason to not be there is as some suggested make resources finite, so that they cannot happily supply everyone inside the block that is not pushing above its own weight, resulting in internal attrition and the eventual descontinuation of the mutual protection networks in favor of conflicts)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#706 - 2014-07-11 10:01:48 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Querns wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The goon tag under his name basically put a lot of salt on any opinion he states defendign the status quo.

Deconstructing a single idea due to its poor design is not the same thing as "defendign the status quo." I am not rejecting any changes to the status quo out of hand; merely attempting to cinch off an obviously faulty line of thinking before it gains traction and infects others.


Goons are my Grrr space enemies but they are just people , good people playing a video game together as a community. As much as I would savor every delicious tear in there ruination I will stand with them or anyone like them against something like is being suggested. You cannot put artifical limits on social paradigms its not fair its not right.



No one proposed a limit. Propose only an incentive to be different. There is no freacking reason to not be in a power block (if your target is really living in 0.0). If you just want good fights it is and it will continue to be better to live in an NPC region and "raid" the fat empires.

The same thing already exist on the alliance manteinance fees, limits to excessive proliferations that coalitions just avoid. At the end that statement of yours make no sense, because you are just trying another way to push limits on a social paradigma of imperialism. Get a grip... just because You do not like an idea doe snot make it wrong, if you gonna assault it at least use arguments that does not refute your own thread.

Also you can dream as much as you want, but the truth is that eve was far more intense and interesting when there were 6-8 smaller power blocks. The smaller the number of actors, the less complex the scene can be. That is basics of politics theory. No amount of illusion will change that. If everyone in the game is in the same group then zero wars can happen. If absolutely every players was on its own , that would be the maximum possible conflict level ( in an unbearable level, true). Unfortunately, you can change everything else in universe and 2 will still be at the same distance of 1.. and still incredbly close to stagnation.

That is not my opinion, is sociologic and politics theory. There are hundreds of examples in history (the clearest one being the cold war).

No amount of changes anywhere will change the humans nature.. and you guys gonna achieve absolutely NOTHING. If your changes were implemented BEFORE this status that we live now was achieved, then they could have delayed it a lot. But now that we are here, no amount of speed bumps will matter, because the problem is not the reduction of the granularity of possibilities, since it is already at the near bottom of the pool. The problem is how you make things go into the opposite direction...

Without any incentive to people to split, absolutely NOTHING will happen on the short and medium term, and when the long term arrives then will be too late and eve will have lost already too many peopel double bored with a 0.0 with no geopolitical possibilities and where traveling is a pain in the ass at the same time.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Anthar Thebess
#707 - 2014-07-11 11:04:49 UTC
Ok some people are afraid that changes will be to much.
So why not split eve a bit.
Some regions will stay , and use current mechanics.
Some regions will have some additional effects , like reduced range of jump drive, jump bridge , and at the same time gates big enough for capital ships to use them.

So small steps , but in right direction.

Current nullsec.
All blobs have thier space in north , and most of the renting grounds in southern part of eve.


"Sansha engineers managed to spawn in southern regions multiple micro black holes resulting in reduced range of jump drives, blocking also jumps between some regions. Their agenda is unknown, but response of CONCORD forces is was fast , as already some gates in southern regions are being upgraded to allow capital movements. "

We can start from Stain - home of Sansha , and slowly expand it to all sov regions owned by Sansha.
If people will be happy about it , we can slowly expand this.

Changes to eve itself will be very simple.
1. Add 1 additional gate size , allowing Capitals and supers to use them.
2. In the affected area reduce jump/bridge length to 30% , or even more. ( Just by effect like we see in wormholes. )
3. Disallow jumping from area without this effect to area having this effect. (This way people will be forced to use regional XL size gates while moving capitals)
4. Increase amount of WH spawns in affected regions.

Of course this is just for the start , and test how people will react.

Additionally making one NPC region different at the start will not harm any big blue blob, so probably every one will be happy.

I think that this is very simple to implement.
- create 1 additional effect - apply it to bunch of systems
- 1 simple code to check if someone is not trying to move from area without this effect to area having one
- Add 1 gate type , that will override "disallow gate usage"

Less than week of work for CCP , ad no major re-haul is needed , just to test this in Stain.
AngelMerc
TemplarisNocti
#708 - 2014-07-11 12:48:34 UTC
Really good one.
but i don't see CCP to implement that, as this will need to force them to be a bit creative that usually.Twisted
Anthar Thebess
#709 - 2014-07-11 12:54:33 UTC
That's the reason why my idea to implement it first on NPC Stain.
If the initial tests will be good , then expand it slowly to sansha owned Sov regions , and again wait for feedback.

Just to start working on this , and why every region have to be similar?

Let sansha experiments on the WH actually make something
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#710 - 2014-07-11 14:38:13 UTC
If it took, say, five minutes to spool up your jump drive when you activate it, before you could jump, imagine the impact on the game as is.

Supercapital fights are still as possible as they are now, but if those reinforcement fleets are several mids away...your looking at much extra time before capital reinforcements can arrive (five minutes spool-up per mid). Enough so, that most combatants might actually start preferring to send subcaps in instead. Most players prefer subcap blobs to super blobs, at least with those you have a chance of a meaningful fight, usually without so much tidi.

...and capitals can still get involved in a brawl, but reinforcements may arrive late in the battle.

It would be easy for CCP to give jump freighters a bonus to spool-up time so that they are not as impacted as combat capital ships in this regard. This is a power projection nerf to combat capital ships, not to logistics.

Make no mistake, you will still have supercap blobs to fight, but no longer will they be traversing most of eve within minutes. Now, having intel on enemy supercap fleet movement is actually meaningful.

Mazzara
Band of the Red Sun
#711 - 2014-07-11 15:21:04 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Mazzara wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
New parties into the current state of 00 sec? Why? Are they big? Can they create headlines like the 2 BBB? I doubt it. And since they cannot create headlines nor otherwise meaningful content, they are not needed in the current state of 00 sec. Roll With the current mechanics and, probably more importantly, the very simple-minded meta gaming around Sov 00 sec, you cannot get into Sov 00 without succumbing to one of the blocks or get kicked out. Even with your changes.

Your suggestions, especially the JF bubble immunity, is very funny. ^^ If you can only jump to the next system, where's the point of having a jump drive at all? They are expensive, they need a cyno everyone can warp to, they then offer no benefit anymore.

And by the way: Why is there yet another thread about this topic? It has been discussed over and over, even in several topics in the last couple of weeks...



oh look another, oh no you can't do that, this game is for just us, and anyone ideas that would change how we play the game is wrong


Jumpdrives will still exist cynos will still exist they will still have value. Bypassing gatecamps , Jumping into battles in a preferred position. Cynoing onto a station things like that.


I think its a great idea.
No matter how much you scrub, how hot of water you use, you can't wash shame!
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#712 - 2014-07-11 16:06:23 UTC
Whiteboarding (power projection):

- Get rid of Cyno mechanics...instead let Capitals jump to any ship that has a cyno module fitted and active. No beacon created, and the ship does not get locked into a death sentence. ** Alternatively, give capitals only the option of jumping to the zenith or nadir of a star within the target system and get rid of cynos completely. Much fun and bloodshed will ensue. This would also directly impact the "JF problem" **

- Severely curtail jump range, and increase fuel for both jump and bridge operations. Maybe add mass restrictions to a bridge like we have with wormholes - of course I haven't used a Titan bridge since 2008, so maybe it's like this now. We would need a new UI to accurately gauge this information regardless.

- Get rid of the smuggler gates. Null regions need more choke points, not less. This would make bridging more important.

- POS bridges I think are fine as is...a 'defender' should have some advantages. This includes using inter region bridges after the removal of the smuggler gates (if in range obviously). POS fights at bridge stations become way more important than currently since Everyone just uses a Titan now in operations. (As a recap, above, severely limit range of a Titan bridge, but leave alone deployed pairings of bridges).

- Hacking can disable bridges, affect sov bonus ratings, and provide some sort of system intel not available through the API or ingame map.

/random ideas most likely not worth salt.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka

DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#713 - 2014-07-11 16:39:29 UTC  |  Edited by: DNSBLACK
Karash Amerius wrote:
Whiteboarding (power projection):

- Get rid of Cyno mechanics...instead let Capitals jump to any ship that has a cyno module fitted and active. No beacon created, and the ship does not get locked into a death sentence. ** Alternatively, give capitals only the option of jumping to the zenith or nadir of a star within the target system and get rid of cynos completely. Much fun and bloodshed will ensue. This would also directly impact the "JF problem" **


/random ideas most likely not worth salt.



This idea is out of the box and I like it. But I rather get rid of jumping all together in a combat sense.
Shadow Tycho
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#714 - 2014-07-11 18:29:15 UTC
Karash Amerius wrote:
Whiteboarding (power projection):

- Get rid of Cyno mechanics...instead let Capitals jump to any ship that has a cyno module fitted and active. No beacon created, and the ship does not get locked into a death sentence. ** Alternatively, give capitals only the option of jumping to the zenith or nadir of a star within the target system and get rid of cynos completely. Much fun and bloodshed will ensue. This would also directly impact the "JF problem" **


/random ideas most likely not worth salt.

I also like this idea.

Make cynos not better then stargates, if cyno technology is so good, why do we use stargates?

we don't if given the option. doesn't mesh with lore and makes for other problems.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#715 - 2014-07-11 19:07:09 UTC
Shadow Tycho wrote:
Make cynos not better then stargates, if cyno technology is so good, why do we use stargates?

Because subcaps don't have jumpdrives?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#716 - 2014-07-11 19:17:58 UTC
I look forward to 450 mill carriers.

Isn't the idea here to have more fights? A 450 carrier still needs fit, rigs and fighters. It's still a billion or more to launch. Most people will lose them left right and center. If Capital is the name of the game in Null sec, why is more fights bad?

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#717 - 2014-07-11 19:28:42 UTC
You're headed for disappointment then, since that won't be happening.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#718 - 2014-07-11 19:31:17 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
You're headed for disappointment then, since that won't be happening.



U skeerd I break your blue donut?

Have no fear, see see pee pertekt you.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#719 - 2014-07-11 19:51:43 UTC
Ioci wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
You're headed for disappointment then, since that won't be happening.

U skeerd I break your blue donut?

Have no fear, see see pee pertekt you.

No, your 450mil Archons are based on a SiSi bug, which won't be ported to TQ. Thus, your entire gloating argument is based on a falsehood.

In short, you are bad, and should feel bad about it.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Anthar Thebess
#720 - 2014-07-11 21:01:19 UTC
Bump to the top of CCP list.